Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72023 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

Old Man

Albuquerque, NM

#34714 May 4, 2012
It was da Jews that put Jesus to death, they are all devils that believe in the devil, oh they will pay for what they have done soon, They will all be Egyptions soon, then we will all have a good laugh.
messianic114

Calgary, Canada

#34715 May 4, 2012
MAAT wrote:
•As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
•Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
•Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
•Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer."
•Pagan services became punishable by death in 356.
•Christian Emperor Theodosius even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
•In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
•In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities.•The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
And all of this even before a proper bible with full text as we know it was composed.
.
What is your point? Ypu never seem to state one.
.
Firstly the actions of anyone is not indicative of the teachings of the religion or if Yeshua is the Messiah. Those texts are available to read. If someone regularly violates the principles of a religion, he is not a practitioner of that religion. As we can see by presidents who parade around with a bible every Sunday for photo ops and commit all kinds of acts contrary to the biblical teachings.
.
Secondly what do you think G-d is going to do upon his return to earth? Here is a snipit:
Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
Joe 2:4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
Joe 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
Joe 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
Joe 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
.
Thirdly you will note by your own evidence that this behaviour didn't become noted until X-tianity became the official religion of the Empire. Before this happened X-tians were being killed for their faith. Not too many fake X-tians at that time. Once it became the religion of the Emporer, you have the hypocrits using religion to garner favor since it isn't costing them their lives.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#34716 May 4, 2012
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
<Judaism gives people the freedom to make there own mind up, but not to the point where you make the claims of the free for alls.>
.
Is that so? If a Jew believes Yeshua is the Messiah he is ostracized and called a traitor. He is told he is no longer a Jew. We have had that discussion ad naseum here in Topix. Familiarize yourself with the Messianic Judaism section if you want proof.
.
So Judaism doesn't allow one to make up their own mind and stay within Judaism. In other words it doesn't do anything. There is no freedom of thought when it comes to Yeshua.
.
<Your organized religion took almost 900 years and then some to develop.>
.
First I dispute this but why is this important? How long did it take Judaism to develop? How many years are there between Abraham and Micah? Since that time Judaism continues to change.
.
<The gospel is the accumulated reflection of many synodes.>
.
Where is your proof of this?
.
<The books were written late and changed a lot.>
.
Where is your proof of this?
.
Conclusion: I don't see much in this post that is true. I don't see one scrap of evidence to your assertions. I will give you the opportunity to support them with EVIDENCE. For instance give three evidences of the NT that have changed alot. Since you have not defined "changed alot" I think it is important that one understand what this means. To me this means a change in meaning. So scribal additions clarifying a passage that are in harmony with the rest of the NT is not a change in meaning. Also differences in spelling or order of words do not constitute a change of meaning. If this is too tough a criteria for you then you need to define what you mean by "changed alot". You might also define what you mean by written late. Most books are written after the fact. All the books can be dated to the 1st century which is within the lifetime of the witnesses of Yeshua.
The evidence you ask for is here:
http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-...

And yes, some of the passages have indeed changed a lot. Like the ending to the gospel of Mark. The original ending was at 16:8, the women fled and didn't say a word. The end. Verses 9 through 20 are not found in the earliest manuscripts
messianic114

Calgary, Canada

#34717 May 4, 2012
MAAT wrote:
•As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial edict more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
•Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
•Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
•Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer."
•Pagan services became punishable by death in 356.[DA468]
•Christian Emperor Theodosius even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues.
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
•In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
•In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities.
•The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
And all of this even before a proper bible with full text as we know it was composed.
.
What is your point? Ypu never seem to state one.
.
Firstly the actions of anyone is not indicative of the teachings of the religion or if Yeshua is the Messiah. Those texts are available to read. If someone regularly violates the principles of a religion, he is not a practitioner of that religion. As we can see by presidents who parade around with a bible every Sunday for photo ops and commit all kinds of acts contrary to the biblical teachings.
.
Secondly what do you think G-d is going to do upon his return to earth? Here is a snipit:
Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
Joe 2:4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
Joe 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
Joe 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
Joe 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
.
Thirdly you will note by your own evidence that this behaviour didn't become noted until X-tianity became the official religion of the Empire. Before this happened X-tians were being killed for their faith. Not too many fake X-tians at that time. Once it became the religion of the Emporer, you have the hypocrits using religion to garner favor since it isn't costing them their lives.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#34718 May 4, 2012
Part 1 of ???
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
<Anonymous testimony is NOT accepted into a court. While there is a gospel atributed to "Luke", no one has any real idea who wrote it.>
.
Firstly we are not in a court so the strigency of the evidence is different. As in a capital case versus a criminal case the rules for evidence change. In this case we have a historical case which is not as stringent as a criminal case as a man's life is not dependent upon the evidence. Do we have evidence Tacitus wrote the annals? Do we have evidence Josephus wrote Wars of the Jews? I just looked at the preface and the beginning of Book 1 and there is no attribution to the author. If it is the case that books at this time were not writen to bring glory to the author but to state something then you have asked for evidence NOT required by historians and so your criteria is out of step with what is required.
.
Secondly the evidence is not anonymous as everyone knew who the authors were and this was passed down orally until today.
.
<Furthermore, when the original does not exist, and ALL of the earliest copies of that document differ from one another (sometimes in trivial things, sometimes in big issues) the document becomes almost worthless as evidence.>
...
Sigh, the library is closing soon, so I will not get a chance to finish this today.

A capital case IS a criminal case. You meant the difference between a criminal case and a civil case.

I have not actually researched as to whether or not Josephus or Tacitus is "really" the author of their respective works. Off the top of my head, I am unaware of any controversy over the authorship. On the other hand, it IS widely known that there are passages in Josephus that ARE forgeries, most likely inserted by xian monks seeking to bolster the case for pretending Jesus was a god, or the Messiah, or anything at all special.

Books at this time were indeed written to bring fame, glory, or money to their authors. However, some were still written anonymously. Still others were written under false names, either pseudonyms or outright forgeries. And historians most certainly DO look at this differently. A book that was written under a forged name is given FAR less credence than one properly attributed, or even one that is anonymous.

Now, to be fair, the gospels were not deliberately given false names. They were all written anonymously and the names were assigned much later by people who only had stories and legends to use to assign authorship. "Luke" appears to have been written by the same person who wrote Acts, and it seems to have been someone who may have accompanied Paul at one time, and Paul was accompanied by someone named Luke, so let's call this gospel "Luke". The other gospels are even worse, so far as being able to know who really wrote them. The one thing that CAN be safely stated is that NONE of the authors was a disciple of Jesus: they were all illiterate peasants.

Matthew the tax collector MIGHT have been high enough up the hierarchy that he could manage a few simple words or names, or he could have just been like the majority of tax collectors back then: a thug with a badge (as it were). But NONE of them would have been able to compose Greek writings such as we see in the gospels.

In an earlier post, I added a link to a book called "Misquoting Jesus". Delightful book. It shows how the NT has been changed over the years and talks about WHY it happened. I strongly recommend that you read it along with the author's other books as well.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#34719 May 4, 2012
When next I can access a computer with internet access, I will address more of the problems in this post
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/judaism/T...
JOEL PASTAKIA

Mumbai, India

#34721 May 4, 2012
Complementarity exceeds the law of the opposites.
JOEL PASTAKIA

Mumbai, India

#34725 May 4, 2012
Perfection of matter and the attaining to the deathless state while in living the transformed physical body arises only when the law of the opposites has been annulled and replaced by the law of the complements that is based on the unification of the opposites and their exceeding.
JOEL PASTAKIA

Mumbai, India

#34727 May 4, 2012
When light is opposed by darkness it leads to a play of the opposite forces that seeks to repel, contradict and annul each other through dominance and wear and tear that ultimately ends in dissolution and death and as a result such a system cannot endure and is a limitation.
messianic114

Calgary, Canada

#34732 May 4, 2012
Liam R wrote:
<quoted text>
The evidence you ask for is here:
http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-...
And yes, some of the passages have indeed changed a lot. Like the ending to the gospel of Mark. The original ending was at 16:8, the women fled and didn't say a word. The end. Verses 9 through 20 are not found in the earliest manuscripts
.
I wouldn't believe anything Bart Ehrman writes. Here is an example of his thinking: http://wellthoughtoutlife.blogspot.ca/2011/10...
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He is merely a man looking to cash in on disbelief in Yeshua.
.
As to your passage in Mark, where in the presumably added verses is there anything new or different from the testimony we have from other witnesses? In other words where is the change?
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Furthermore think about it. If you were an author writing about the resurrection would you have ended the story in verse 8?
.
Lastly here is more evidence or Ehrman's thinking and methods:
What to Make of Ehrman’s All-Too-Convenient Cock-Crowing Conundrum? Another astonishingly easy-to-resolve “problem with the Bible” that perplexes Ehrman is the following:“In Mark’s Gospel, Jesus tells Peter that he will deny him three times ‘before the cock crows twice.’ In Matthew’s Gospel he tells him that it will be ‘before the cock crows.’ Well, which is it-before the cock crows once or twice?” First, as his more attentive students have likely discovered, Professor Ehrman is engaged in a cocky game of slight of mind. Truth is that Matthew does not tell us how many times the rooster crowed-he simply tells us that the rooster crowed. As such, Ehrman is knocking down a straw man. Furthermore, only an extreme literalist bent on undermining Scripture would attempt to make the passage in question walk on all fours. In recounting past events or telling stories we obviously don’t all highlight the same details. In the case at hand, Mark simply provides a bit more detail than does Matthew. Finally, Ehrman has set up a rigged game in which it is impossible for him to lose. Since Matthew and Mark do not provide identical testimonies, he cries “contradiction!” Conversely, if they had, he could conveniently charge them with collusion. In sharp contrast to Ehrman’s methodology, credible scholarship looks for a reliable core set of facts in order to validate a historical account. In this case, Matthew and Mark merely provide complementary perspectives.
messianic114

Calgary, Canada

#34733 May 4, 2012
MAAT wrote:
No piece by MUQ.
M114
that's all that's ever said about that.
3. We have other fragments dated in the early 2nd century.
>>Of fragments that seem to ...
4. The Talmud wasn't written until at least the 2nd century but no credible thelogian doesn't believe the testimony goes father back. No one thinks later scribes made up stories and attributed them to earlier sages.
>> Not since the cairo Geniza and before the found the qumran caves, before that time no input from jews was ever taken seriously.
Only since the publication and study and after finding the oldest codex A have they started retranslating and are bibles reflecting at least some truth, of what was actually there.
5. All the early documents state Yeshua rose from the dead and assumed into heaven in the presence of witnesses.
Proof, i nor any others can even find his name, that's why i asked wher you had been, missing the entie project going on in another thread.
I know your lack of hebrew was abominable, so we tried. But now you seemed to have filled that in by reading just about everything without any concern for historic timeframe or circumstances of conception or the juxtaposed positions taken.
like Jehova's versus catholics.
And I can assure you that western text is not judaism based, yes they made claims, and stole relevant pieces, but jesus is more mithraic and dualism and hell, as notions from zoroastrianism shine through everywhere.
Since the religion is based on discarding what the churchfathers did not like. And thus their discussions on it.
In the east it went slightly different, but there we find the same textual problems.
i can't read effin estrangela and georgian, let alone russian and japanese, so i have to rely on sources that might have been edited, filled in etc.
It's all fine if people buy into that, but it is not judaism. Believe in tenets is just a choice.
Some would say, stop the distortions, and i echo that, as do most translators nowadays.
LXX also dates from around 390. Codes sinaiticus just finished a bit later, though some would as earliest date for both hold 330 CE and in starting the project and latest date 360 CE.
.
1. Early church fathers which we can date to as early as 105 AD quoted from the NT, therefore it existed and there is no reason to think it was in oral form only.
>>sourc the history written by Eusebius earliest dat 330 CE
.
Where is your evidence? You continue to make assertions without evidence. Here is my evidence:
The First Epistle of Clement,(literally, Clement to Corinth; Greek: &#922;&#955;&#942; &#956;&#949;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#962; &#960;&#961;&#8056 ;&#962; &#922;&#959;&#961; &#953;&#957;&#952; &#943;&#959;&#965; &#962;, Kl&#275;mentos pros Korinthious) is a letter addressed to the Christians in the city of Corinth. The epistle is dated customarily to the end of the reign of emperor Domitian, that is 95 or 96 AD. It ranks with Didache and the Gospel of Thomas as one of the earliest, if not the earliest, of extant Christian documents outside the canonical New Testament.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/First_Epistle_of_Clem...
.
Do you actually have anyone saying that this document is from the 4th century?
.
The earliest extant fragment of the New Testament is the Rylands Library Papyrus P52, a piece of the Gospel of John dated to the first half of the 2nd century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible
.
2. We have a fragment of the gospel of Mark in the DSS fragments which is dated at 68 AD.
>>>We don't, we have fragments that are in dispute.
.
Anyone can dispute anything especially when they don't like the implication of what admitting something to be true is for them.
.
Hace these disputers any idea what else the fragment can be of? No.
MUQ

Saudi Arabia

#34734 May 4, 2012
Can You Pass The Israel Palestinian test? Part 11A

By Jeffrey Rudolph

THE ISRAEL-PALESTINE QUIZ QUESTIONS:

Q11.

After the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, what percentage of Mandatory Palestine’s land was part of, or occupied by, Israel?
Ans. 11.

100%.

(CONTD.)
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

#34735 May 4, 2012
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
No I am asking you to specifically point out a document that would clearly lead one to believe that wtc 1,2 , or 7 were built to collapse straight down.
All buildings came down in the path of most resistance at such a rate to defy common sense never mind physics.
rabbee: well if you want to read, all the national and local building codes involved for high rise construction. since you have more than just building codes to deal with. and to find the specific codes in force at that time. and to take the necessary college courses, in physics, mathmatics, structural and civil engineering. well then, knock yourself out. the college in question, will let you know what text books you need. and even have integrated courses, for the code books. to become, a certified engineer. and even teach terminology, so that you can understand what other engineers are talking about.

and without any prerequisite knowledge, there is no point in trying to discuss this with any one. there is just too much territory, in even math and physics to be covered here. and i seriously doubt, you have ever even seen, any kind of national code book. or taken any test, for any engineering certification.

and since you have already, discounted anything i have said. then go study all of this for yourself, in some school of your choice. i am not being paid, to be your baby sitter or college professor. and in fact, i have no desire to even teach again. i have no intention, of being glorified baby sitter again. especially with anyone, who only knows how to insult others. so go do that, to your teacher. and see how, he likes it.
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

#34737 May 4, 2012
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Your answer is non responsive never.mind that it wasnt even directed to you.
Have you studied the okc bombing? Do you believe that the box truck with explosives caused that much damage?
rabbee: oh! come on. this is so far off the topic, it is no longer even worth discussing. i am not even all that interested, in how stupid people can be in that particular direction.

so what do you think, about why messianic jews say: they are persecuted in Ysrael. and just why do you think, G-D would allow that to happen, to these alleged innocent jews?

cause if you want to discuss, 9/11 i am sure they have a message thread for this somewhere. and spare us, your attention deficit disorder.
rider

Ishpeming, MI

#34738 May 4, 2012
9/11 Missing Links
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rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

#34739 May 4, 2012
i aleady knew the truth about why 9/11, and other castatrophes happen. before any of them, actually happened. and i am opposed, to pissing G-D off evem more.

just so that we can all have, more fun with castrophes. i don't view them, as a fun source, of false wittness entertainment. i am not partial, to anything that results in more pestilence, plague and fanine.
MUQ

Saudi Arabia

#34740 May 4, 2012
M 114 wrote:
Firstly there was no country named Palestine to be occupied by Israel.
.
Secondly if there were such a land and they fought against Israel and lost, then it is common for land to be lost as retribution for losing a war.
Ans.

Then all that Bilfour Declaration and League’s decision to allow Britain to manage the land was fake?

I did not know that!!

And since when the winning in war becomes justification for permanent occupation and if one party has won thru war, the other can try to win it back.

So why should Israel complain about the struggle by Palestinians?

It does not make any sense, does it?
MUQ

Saudi Arabia

#34741 May 4, 2012
MAAT wrote:
It must be where you live, nat geo, discovery, dramatized this and that....you couldn't move a step without some movie or documentary.
i'm glad we can leave that behind us.

But still got killing on your mind now do you MUQ.

hundreds of Arabs have been arrested that did have intent and action to commit terror-acts.
It's not the jews or zionists that set the worlds teeth on edge.

it's greedy Arabs and their fascist fundie dream that fuck it up for the rest of us.

It's the 21 st century here in the west, we can't help it that you are still living in your middle-ages, but we had decidedly different things in mind for the new century, and not some sodden back to the burqa morals and what should and could have been long resolved land-disputes.
If you throw people out because you support the wrong site in a worldwar with 50 million dead, then what do you expect!

Now you are just trying to keep that artificial hate burning, it's sick!

I still see no specks, so lay of any remarks about the issue.
Ans.

You arrest Arabs and do nothing to solve the root cause of the problem is dismantling Israel from Palestine, if you do not solve the root problem, how things will improve.

What is so great about living in 21st century? The same statements were made when 14th or 18th or 20th Century started.

The standards of truth and falsehood do not change when one enters 20th or 21st century.

Our body functions in the same way in 21st century as it was doing in 1st century, so why you do not change that and start walking on your hands instead of your feet, because you are in 21st century?

Men and women had different roles to play in society in 1st century as well as in 21st century or 25th century.

If you muddle with that and try to create “artificial equality” between sexes, it is not going to work, it will backfire on you people.

You cannot fight against the nature.

And you will say that I did not answer your Question!!

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#34742 May 4, 2012
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Thermite and thermate.although related are obviously different.
Anyway samples werr tested, results were positive.
That's tricky.
Given that concrete contains rebar and sulphite and even barium salts, gypsum also good for extracting sulphite , than we have loads of alluminum, and really hot temperatures, compared to some with the vulcanic ashcloud and the compression heat.
So it's a chicken egg problem.
You could look up barium in concrete to prevent rusting of rebar.
or barium and sulphate to prevent corrosion by rebar due to salt moist air. barium-sulphate a.s.o.
Effect of salt moist air on alluminium when in close contact with carbonized steel and sulphate containing concrete and gypsum and what happened if it all reduced to samll particles.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#34743 May 4, 2012
First things first, you stated that buildings were designed to fall straight down, please give me someroof that wtc 1,2 Or 7 was designed to fall straight down.

No the statement was that it was designed to fall just about i it's footprint. The three double floorzones would make that possible.
Wtc did make a twist, but never the less did fall in it's footprint.

The short answer is quite simply that they are not trees.

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