A Biblical Analysis Of The Two Covenant Theory Of The Atonement...

Feb 17, 2013 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Experience Project

TO THE JEW FIRST: A Biblical Analysis of the "Two Covenant" Theory of the Atonement by Joseph P. Gudel Please Note: Each coloured link within the article will lead you to a related topic on a different page of this site.

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““You must not lose faith ”

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#1
Feb 17, 2013
 
The bumpersticker christian: Found It!
The jewish answer: Never lost it!

quote:
For example, Carl Braaten writes:“Christianity is the Judaizing of the pagans. The task of Christianity is to preach the gospel among the Gentiles....The task of Judaism meanwhile is to remind Christianity of its original biblical roots.”[10]

Similarly, many Roman Catholic theologians have taken the pronouncements of Vatican II and Pope John Paul II’s Redemptoris Missio (1991) to their logical conclusion, viz., that religious dialogue with members of other religions is to replace actual missionary efforts:“Former Christian considerations of Judaism (as well as of other religions) encouraged proselytism. That is, Christians believed it not only legitimate but praiseworthy to exert economic, psychological, or spiritual pressure on non-Christians in order to gain new members for the Church. The dialogical position, however, is one in which the parties accept one another as mutually equal partners.”[11]

This position, however, is also increasingly being found among Christians who accept and believe in the Bible as the Word of God. For example, George Sheridan, who at the time was the East Coast Regional Director for the Southern Baptist department of Interfaith Witness, asserted that God’s bond with the Jewish people was never superseded with the coming of Jesus:“The Jews of today, as ever, receive salvation through their having been chosen by God in covenant with Abraham, Moses, and the prophets....My position is that the Jews do not require evangelization.”[12]

end quote.
I would say that as tothe question where evangelising started or stopped we end up close to Luther or with Luther.

But ideas about the content of atonement or saving are radically different.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#2
Feb 17, 2013
 
A sacrificial lamb would have truly no clue as to what would happen to it.
A victim pur sang, but that is not what jesus was.
I think we should first define what christianity is or should be.

Idol, scapegoat, lamb.
De Smet developed a thesis round the ideas of René Girard. An excepr and translation of the interview.

Lady Gaga would be an idol, even speculated as presidential candidate and even when she is not the news it's f.i. a man that had a sex-change to change into her.
Jesus has this same status of idol for christian believers.
But was he an impotent victim though aware like Natascha Kampusch, a sacrificial lamb as in victim persé or a scapegoat. Since the trial was a sham and the reaction of the people enlarged in the frame of our perpective.

A.)Or did he face the violence as mirror to face his own violent tendencies. That would be the main theme of the thesis.

Girard stresses that the evangelium and the cross hold a mirror to people, in which they are confronted radically with their own violence. Everyone has their own scapegoats. Stronger: scapegoats define each and everyones identity.
(B*premisse)
Christian conversion means that people dare to face their own violence.

A famous example would be the first stage performance by Susan Boyle, an unemployed frumpy housewife, ridiculed by the audience and the viewer at home and afterwards still got a standing ovation. Judging member Amanda phrased is thus:“I’m so thrilled because I know that everybody was against you. We are all so cynical but that was a complete wakeup call!”

The christian faith oversteps and offers an alternative.
(C*presumption:)
If humanity is religious by nature, as exemplified by our now-adays idol-cult, than the christian alternative would make a seamless connection with it.

It calls on humanity to consciously place J.C. as non-violent example centerstage and to follow suite.
So His divinity does not come to be from channeling/guiding violence but in the recognition of ones own sin-goat violence.
Authentic believe in Jesus Christ means that he makes the difference in a non-violent manor/way.
Jesus became sin-goat and victim, so no others victims would be needed.
After 2000 years that message is still miles removed from being reality.

Starting with stage- and victim cultural imagery we can by symbolism of the sin-offer-goat theory make a connection with the christian story in which the vitim becomes the center of attention by demasquing (giving it a face/identity) the violence.
Paradox, the church with this centuries long radical, non-violent message, seems impotent to face it's own victims.

~~~~~~~~
And this would be the age-old question whether an individual can be held responsible for a (dead) instution. Or whether the tenets of the (dead) institution are responsible for the individuals behaviour.

Normally people go broke, the farm goes on and the next peple go broke, the farm goes on....
But is that, the same way we should treat religious institutions?

The Catholic church and believers have always left that unanswered.
But if we state the scurch to act paradoxically then why isn't it equally paradoxically of believers not identifying with the romans when they see their face in the mirror.
As transferrance of the non-violent message and identity of jesus.
(Which by the way by extention makes YHWH non-violent too.)
---
Well a lot to contemplate and an entire frame.
I just translated parts from the interview and not the thesis itself. Before one can even think about what paul means.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#3
Feb 17, 2013
 
Some premisses to me come straight out of the blue and lead to the paradox of non-violence centerstage that is faceless violence reflected in the scapegoating onlooker that follows his idol example.'
Which makes jesus complicit and feeding on the violence. The unmasked violence is mirrored in his face, so the victim becomes the violence.
And should lead to the conclusion that the bad tendencies should be identified with.(That is if we follow René Girards position. Who concluded his theory with the statment that the bible had done away with the scapegoat.)
Not you the christian but you the roman.
Only then atonement could follow.
As long as they still do not know what they have done...or do, it would go nowhere.

The Lady Gaga example frankly of the unknown man getting a sex-change but nevertheless related to her. With this difference that there was awareness. The violence invited or at least expected.

I'm quite sure that De Smet tried to avoid an identification on personal title of believers.
As if the believer would not have the same onus.
Eric

Lombard, IL

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#5
Feb 17, 2013
 

Judged:

1

1

MAAT wrote:
The bumpersticker christian: Found It!
The jewish answer: Never lost it!
In 1977 my wife and I moved to St. Louis, Missouri. The "I found it" bumper stickers were the rage. We were parking in the deck for Famous Barr (now Macy's) in downtown St. Louis and saw for the first time a "I never lost it" bumper sticker with a Magen David. We both started to laugh declaring that we wanted one.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#6
Feb 18, 2013
 
Alex123 aka WM wrote:
@ MAAT...continued.....
<quoted text>
Very good...and thought provoking indeed.
Followers of Judaism and Islam may differ in their approach, but they both believe that they worship the same deity who is eternal all powerful unique self subsisting and not a human or an earthbound creature.
We don't usually give up even if our human local "heros" fail because we still have our top boss who is totally invincible and eternal!
Unfortunately, the "Christian" perspective does NOT allow the believer to understand such a GOD.
They have created a god out of a man who was born and then died.
They can say the man got up from the dead..went to heaven...did this and did that...but without a shred of evidence.
By hedging their bets on a man they have to keep convincing themselves that the man is indeed god...and each christian has this doubt 1000 times a day...what if jesus is not god..what if he was just man?
They overcome this fear by repeating their "mantras"..jesus is this..jesus is that..hoping they can drown out their OWN doubts and noises!
It is very hard to project a tiny man into orbit...and then get him completely out of this universe plus many more universes to turn him into an all powerful GOD.
That is why "christianity" in its present form cannot survive.
They need to return to the ways of the followers of Jesus the man and messenger who was a devoted slave of God...
Instead of following what he did and worshipping his GOD, "they are WORSHIPPING the WORSHIPPER - an ignorant recipe for disaster.

MAAT:
To me it seems as if the thesis is making a turn. I should see the actual thing( though the website i took it from is allied to the Catholic Universy of Louvain/Leuven, so it should be a fair representation, published with permission of the Author De Smet.)
It's as if the initial question A.) is not followed through to the end, as i did in my comment.
---
A.)Or did he face the violence as mirror to face his own violent tendencies. That would be the main theme of the thesis.
Girard stresses that the evangelium and the cross hold a mirror to people, in which they are confronted radically with their own violence. Everyone has their own scapegoats. Stronger: scapegoats define each and everyones identity.
(B*premisse)
Christian conversion means that people dare to face their own violence.
A famous example would be the first stage performance by Susan Boyle, an unemployed frumpy housewife, ridiculed by the audience and the viewer at home and afterwards still got a standing ovation. Judging member Amanda phrased is thus:“I’m so thrilled because I know that everybody was against you. We are all so cynical but that was a complete wakeup call!”
The christian faith oversteps and offers an alternative.
(C*presumption:)
If humanity is religious by nature, as exemplified by our now-adays idol-cult, than the christian alternative would make a seamless connection with it.
It calls on humanity to consciously place J.C. as non-violent example centerstage and to follow suite.
So His divinity does not come to be from channeling/guiding violence but in the recognition of ones own sin-goat violence.
Authentic believe in Jesus Christ means that he makes the difference in a non-violent manor/way.
Jesus became sin-goat and victim, so no others victims would be needed.
---
We discussed the violence of the crusades, of evangelising, of building empires, of Jesus rudeboy scapegoating stance. The scapegoating that happened for centuries of the jews. The scapegaoting now of muslims and vice versa. And the interfaith started out with blaming itself for egging on believers to go at other faiths and individulas(the shoa and crusades), but later it revokes and states it was neo-paganism. So now we have the child-abuse this interview alludes to.
But should the conclusion not be that jesus takes the underdog position that provides the very template for scape-goating others. Is christian identity about emulating his scape-goating?

““You must not lose faith ”

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#7
Feb 18, 2013
 
7719
shamma sceptic quoted:
Any serious student of language is aware of the fact that words are flexible vehicles of communication. This principle is no less true of the Bible than it is of any piece of literature.

For example, the term “God” may refer to a Being who is truly divine in nature (Jn. 1:1), or the same word may be employed of a false object of worship that is void of the essence of deity (1 Cor. 8:4-6). The verb “believed” may reflect nothing more than a superficial emotion (Jn. 12:42), or it may represent a genuine conviction that is expressed in obedience (Acts 2:41,44). There is none “righteous”(Rom. 3:10), yet Joseph, the husband of Mary was “righteous”(Mt. 1:19). It is wrong to “judge”(Mt. 7:1); it is right to “judge”(Jn. 7:24). One cannot be justified by “works”(Eph. 2:9), yet justification is obtained by “works”(Jas. 2:24).

An Objection
Frequently it is alleged, however, that ultimately God is responsible for “evil”— for had he not created angels and men, the evil they have generated would not exist.
The logic employed in this objection is flawed, and the critic who makes it will scarcely stay with it in a consistent manner.
No greater compliment could have been paid to man than to have been created in the very image of God (Gen. 1:26-27). A part of that “creation package” was the gift of personal volition, that is, the ability to make moral choices. There are only two logical possibilities — one might be created with “free will,” or without “free will.”
Now which option is the obvious expression of love (cf. 1 Jn. 4:8). The former, of course. The Lord thus signally honored human beings by granting them the personal power of choice. Once such action was taken, the Creator is not morally culpable if the gift of choice is abused, and the possessor thereof elects to pursue the road of danger and destruction.
---
MAAT:
Adam and eve would be about freedom of choice introduced in the world.
And that god bares no responsibility.

My conclusion was thank god, as was Iob's.

But the conclusion of the Vatican was that the Mary, New Eve gave birth to the church, that adam is by extention jesus and that the church, as first and second son of god and it's holy spirit, embodies the divinity of god and is thus not responsible for what people do, not even if it instigates hatred.
They ultimately refuse to take blame (for anti-semitism)revoked their statement in Nostra Aetate and make the followers responsible, they were the neo-paganists.

The church however is not YHWH, so where we do not judge G-d we can however judge the church.
True Christian witness

Tulsa, OK

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#8
Feb 18, 2013
 
Christendom, all Christian religions today as well as Judaism do not understand the Bible. They only know what they have been taught, and preach and teach man made doctrines. Matthew 15:9

The only people who understand God's word the Bible are Jehovah's witnesses and only the meek people of this earth will listen to them and only the honest hearted will obey the instructions necessary for survival of the end of this world. Psalm 37:11

Not everyone who claims to be Christian even knows the meaning of that word. Most don't even believe the Bible is inspired of God and the prophets wrote what God told them to write down. The blind are leading the blind and only the Jehovah's witnesses can help anyone to see the light of truth today. That is God's will that eveyone should be his witness, just as Jesus was. Revelation 3:22

“the end-times is now”

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#9
Feb 18, 2013
 
to the Jew: take off Moses and put on Christ
to the Gentile:......... put on Christ

to the JW:.. Jesus is God

http://bobgeorge.net/teaching/hebrews/index.h...
True Christian witness

Tulsa, OK

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#10
Feb 18, 2013
 
His-truth wrote:
to the Jew: take off Moses and put on Christ
to the Gentile:......... put on Christ
to the JW:.. Jesus is God
http://bobgeorge.net/teaching/hebrews/index.h...
Let's see your proof that Jesus said he was God or that he is taught to be God in the Bible. There is none, Jesus never claimed to be God and never gave himself any glory, he always gave Almighty God Jehovah the glory and praise, and Jesus said he loved the Father Jehovah.

(John 14:31) 31 but, in order for the world to know that I love the Father, even as the Father has given me commandment [to do], so I am doing. Get up, let us go from here.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#11
Feb 18, 2013
 
The end-times wouldbe now indeed.

It would be YHWH since He alsways put his faith their ultimately.
The thesis is actually about facing your identity as scape-goater.
Not about blaming god (since the conclusion was reached that he was part of the trinity) and by extention presuming that we can judge god.
Sinless is not the same as not being responsible.
G-s as ultimate vehicle for justice would still share responsibility.
In a sense the lesson should be that every man carries god inside and can work to face it's inner demons. That you are not labeled and forever, not stuck, but do carry the responsibility to work at it and fix it. Heal, make the world whole.=saving, making holy.
That's the revelation.
That's what fighting evil and injustice is about.
Not by scape-goating others and waiting for some rapture and total destruction. No, a very individual process that all have to go through.

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#12
Feb 18, 2013
 
His-truth wrote:
to the Jew: take off Moses and put on Christ
to the Gentile:......... put on Christ
to the JW:.. Jesus is God
http://bobgeorge.net/teaching/hebrews/index.h...
I frankly would not see the point.
just as the JW would not.
But as a short recap of the content of the title piece it would kinda fit.

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#13
Feb 28, 2013
 

Judged:

1

Jesus fulfilled NO messianic prophecies. "They are their own witnesses, they see not nor know...." Christians say 300 prophecies have been fulfilled in Jesus but they are counting verses (taken out of context). Whole paragraphs, chapters, and Psalms are complete prophecies. Ephraim is joined to idols, let him alone, their drink is sour...They are shepherds that cannot understand. Satan IS the god of this world.
True Christian witness

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#14
Mar 4, 2013
 
If you believe that Jesus is God, you are the antichrist. 1John 2:22

If you believe that Jesus had an immortal soul when he died, you are the antichrist, because Jesus could not have died at all. 1John

If you believe that Jesus is to be worshipped you are the antichrist. 2John 7

Jesus said you must worship God, the God of Moses and Abraham and the God and Father Jesus worshipped is Jehovah God, and God said you must not worship other gods. John 4:24
Isaiah 46:9

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#15
Mar 4, 2013
 
I believe ther is hope for you but I don't understand if you are a Christian, there is so much diversity in Christianity, they can't agree on anything. Jesus is the prince of darkness, the leader of the sons of darkness and he's been reincarnated but this time he's going to hell. There will only be 2 religions, Judaism and Christianity.
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#16
Mar 4, 2013
 
susanblange wrote:
I believe ther is hope for you but I don't understand if you are a Christian, there is so much diversity in Christianity, they can't agree on anything. Jesus is the prince of darkness, the leader of the sons of darkness and he's been reincarnated but this time he's going to hell. There will only be 2 religions, Judaism and Christianity.
You do not know what you are talking about.

You should get off this Topix and find a chat room with people who think like you.

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#17
Mar 4, 2013
 
They are their own witnesses, they see not nor know that they may be ashamed.

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