Book of Moses: God denying himself

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Samael

Switzerland

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#1
Nov 10, 2012
 
In the book of Moses, god gives Moses the 10 laws, withunder them also the one "Thou shalt not kill". But it is also in the Book of Moses where God is killing countless egyptian.
The Angels that have fallen, were dropped out of God's empire because they didn't respect law No.1, so why should God himself should be able to break his own law aswell, but without get punsished? Well there is no one who could drop him out of heaven, as he is the most powerful being. But to break laws as a powerful being that cant be judged for his doing, the case gets even worse: God is a dictator who is doing what he wants. This is the first law of satanism; "Thou what thou willst" (Crowley). So god would be a Satanist, that seems unlogic as he banned the devil from his site. But in fact he medhimself to one!!!
Eric

Addison, IL

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#2
Nov 11, 2012
 
Samael wrote:
In the book of Moses, god gives Moses the 10 laws, withunder them also the one "Thou shalt not kill".!
You need to learn Hebrew so that you can properly translate this sentence.
Samael

Switzerland

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#3
Nov 13, 2012
 
What else did god say then?
Eric

Addison, IL

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#4
Nov 14, 2012
 
Samael wrote:
What else did god say then?
lo tirtsakh

tirtsakh as used in the Tanakh connotes unjustified killing (i.e., murder). It is not used for killing in times of war, defense or punishment.
Samael

Switzerland

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#5
Nov 15, 2012
 
Thats stupid, why should I be allowed to kill someone just because I can justify it? I mean, then I could kill everyone and justify myself with things like "I didnt like his face, so i shoot it" or "He enraged me with his silly T-Shirt" or "I felt bloolust" or whatever. You can justify almost everything, probably not good, but you can, and as the law says, "only" unjustified killing is punishable, almost every murderer is not guilty. So I think your translation (even if it is correct) quite sucks.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

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#6
Nov 15, 2012
 
Samael wrote:
Thats stupid, why should I be allowed to kill someone just because I can justify it? I mean, then I could kill everyone and justify myself with things like "I didnt like his face, so i shoot it" or "He enraged me with his silly T-Shirt" or "I felt bloolust" or whatever. You can justify almost everything, probably not good, but you can, and as the law says, "only" unjustified killing is punishable, almost every murderer is not guilty. So I think your translation (even if it is correct) quite sucks.
Perhaps you should ask one of the doctors, nurses, or attendants at the hospital where you live to help you understand the definition of "murder". It could help with your treatment, if you could come to understand that...
Eric

Joliet, IL

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#7
Nov 15, 2012
 
Samael wrote:
Thats stupid, why should I be allowed to kill someone just because I can justify it? I mean, then I could kill everyone and justify myself with things like "I didnt like his face, so i shoot it" or "He enraged me with his silly T-Shirt" or "I felt bloolust" or whatever. You can justify almost everything, probably not good, but you can, and as the law says, "only" unjustified killing is punishable, almost every murderer is not guilty. So I think your translation (even if it is correct) quite sucks.
You can make that argument as the thug is approaching you and your family with a gun and you have to kill him/her in self-defense.
Samael

Switzerland

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#8
Nov 16, 2012
 
I didnt say self-defense is wrong, i said you can find reasons for everything, and so if you are allowed to kill if you have a reason, you could do it everytime. Sure there are some special situations in which it is not that wrong to kill someone as in others. but as the law just speaks of "unjustified killing" it is not only fitting to these situations
Eric

Addison, IL

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#9
Nov 17, 2012
 
Samael wrote:
I didnt say self-defense is wrong, i said you can find reasons for everything, and so if you are allowed to kill if you have a reason, you could do it everytime. Sure there are some special situations in which it is not that wrong to kill someone as in others. but as the law just speaks of "unjustified killing" it is not only fitting to these situations
I don't know what it's like in Switzerland, but in the rest of civilized society the laws established by the people determine what's justified and what's not justified. As I said previously, the Tanakh sets forth what justified killing is.

You just got caught with a real bad translation (King James). If you look at other English translations, you will find the word murder and not kill.

NET ©“You shall not murder.

NIV ©
"You shall not murder.

NASB ©
"You shall not murder.

NLT ©
"Do not murder.

MSG ©
No murder.

BBE ©
Do not put anyone to death without cause.

NRSV ©
You shall not murder.

NKJV ©
"You shall not murder.

Even the New King James uses murder. Murder is closer to the meaning addressed in the Hebrew.

Now you feel that you have to save face by arguing the preposterous. It's OK to admit that you have learned something new and you were misinformed as to your original position.
Samael

Switzerland

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#10
Nov 18, 2012
 
Well then god murdered the egyptians, he didnt even gave them a chance to convert, and as he did so, he broke his law. Thats still not ok in my opinion. If you think its justified, then tell me why? I mean especially the murder on all first born children. They have not sent out any danger to Moses' people so it cant be called self-defence and they were also not in war then. An d to the point of punishment; why does god murder the innocent and let the guilty alive? The murder on innocent children really was an unjustified murder. Even in your saying. So as god broke his law by that he is not "good" in his own eyes.
Eric

Addison, IL

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#11
Nov 18, 2012
 
Samael wrote:
Well then god murdered the egyptians, he didnt even gave them a chance to convert, and as he did so, he broke his law. Thats still not ok in my opinion. If you think its justified, then tell me why? I mean especially the murder on all first born children. They have not sent out any danger to Moses' people so it cant be called self-defence and they were also not in war then. An d to the point of punishment; why does god murder the innocent and let the guilty alive? The murder on innocent children really was an unjustified murder. Even in your saying. So as god broke his law by that he is not "good" in his own eyes.
When was the pesach and when was the law set forth?
Samael

Switzerland

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#12
Nov 19, 2012
 
This does not matter as the laws were given to last as universal law for ALL times, this means future and past. Also mentioned in Moses' books is, that god said: "He which sheddeth (hu-)man's blood, shall have his blood shed by (hu-)man again". This would mean god wants us to shed his blood, as he shed (hu-)man's blood. So he is guilty. He needs to be judged. Probably he was fallen from heaven a long time ago now, judged by all other beings in heaven.
Eric

Addison, IL

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#13
Nov 19, 2012
 
Samael wrote:
This does not matter as the laws were given to last as universal law for ALL times, this means future and past.
Citation please. Of the 613 mitzvot, only 7 predate the Exodus.
SamBee

Clermont, FL

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#14
Nov 21, 2012
 
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
Citation please. Of the 613 mitzvot, only 7 predate the Exodus.
You sure about that? give the precepts for this understanding of yours.
Eric

Addison, IL

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#15
Nov 21, 2012
 
SamBee wrote:
<quoted text>
You sure about that? give the precepts for this understanding of yours.
I am corrected by Hugh. It's 8 or 9.
SamBee

Clermont, FL

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#16
Nov 21, 2012
 
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
I am corrected by Hugh. It's 8 or 9.
What about ,All the LAWS existed.
Eric

Addison, IL

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#17
Nov 21, 2012
 
SamBee wrote:
<quoted text>
What about ,All the LAWS existed.
Really? Do you have any evidence that the laws concerning the celebration/keeping of the feasts and festivals were in affect prior to Shemot
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#18
Nov 21, 2012
 
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
I am corrected by Hugh. It's 8 or 9.
Actually it is much more than 9. Are you aware that the 613 commandments are listed by categories and that each group contain many commandments?

If you list the commandments as is done in the 613 you will get much more than your 9. Why the use of 7 or 9. It appears as an attempt to diminish for whatever reason.

Illicit sex in the 613 has 25 commandments. How many of them is a non-Jew allowed to do in the eyes of God?

Point is, list these don'ts and you will get an expanded number just like it is done when listing the 613 for Jews.

82.Not to indulge in familiarities with relatives, such as kissing, embracing, winking, skipping, which may lead to incest (Lev. 18:6)(CCN110).
83.Not to commit incest with one's mother (Lev. 18:7)(CCN112). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
84.Not to commit sodomy with one's father (Lev. 18:7)(CCN111).
85.Not to commit incest with one's father's wife (Lev. 18:8)(CCN113). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
86.Not to commit incest with one's sister (Lev. 18:9)(CCN127). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
87.Not to commit incest with one's father's wife's daughter (Lev. 18:11)(CCN128). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
88.Not to commit incest with one's son's daughter (Lev. 18:10)(CCN119)(Note: CC treats this and the next as one commandment; however, Rambam treats them as two). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
89.Not to commit incest with one's daughter's daughter (Lev. 18:10)(CCN119)(Note: CC treats this and the previous as one commandment; however, Rambam treats them as two). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
90.Not to commit incest with one's daughter (this is not explicitly in the Torah but is inferred from other explicit commands that would include it)(CCN120). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
91.Not to commit incest with one's fathers sister (Lev. 18:12)(CCN129). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
92.Not to commit incest with one's mother's sister (Lev. 18:13)(CCN130). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
93.Not to commit incest with one's father's brothers wife (Lev. 18:14)(CCN125). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
94.Not to commit sodomy with one's father's brother (Lev. 18:14)(CCN114).
95.Not to commit incest with one's son's wife (Lev. 18:15)(CCN115). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
96.Not to commit incest with one's brother's wife (Lev. 18:16)(CCN126). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
97.Not to commit incest with one's wife's daughter (Lev. 18:17)(CCN121). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
98.Not to commit incest with the daughter of one's wife's son (Lev. 18:17)(CCN122). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
99.Not to commit incest with the daughter of one's wife's daughter (Lev. 18:17)(CCN123). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
100.Not to commit incest with one's wife's sister (Lev. 18:18)(CCN131). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
101.Not to have intercourse with a woman, in her menstrual period (Lev. 18:19)(CCN132).
102.Not to have intercourse with another man's wife (Lev. 18:20)(CCN124).
103.Not to commit sodomy with a male (Lev. 18:22)(CCN116).
104.Not to have intercourse with a beast (Lev. 18:23)(CCN117).
105.That a woman shall not have intercourse with a beast (Lev. 18:23)(CCN118).
106.Not to castrate the male of any species; neither a man, nor a domestic or wild beast, nor a fowl (Lev. 2
Eric

Addison, IL

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#19
Nov 21, 2012
 
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually it is much more than 9. Are you aware that the 613 commandments are listed by categories and that each group contain many commandments?
If you list the commandments as is done in the 613 you will get much more than your 9. Why the use of 7 or 9. It appears as an attempt to diminish for whatever reason.
Illicit sex in the 613 has 25 commandments. How many of them is a non-Jew allowed to do in the eyes of God?
Point is, list these don'ts and you will get an expanded number just like it is done when listing the 613 for Jews.
82.Not to indulge in familiarities with relatives, such as kissing, embracing, winking, skipping, which may lead to incest (Lev. 18:6)(CCN110).
83.Not to commit incest with one's mother (Lev. 18:7)(CCN112). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
84.Not to commit sodomy with one's father (Lev. 18:7)(CCN111).
85.Not to commit incest with one's father's wife (Lev. 18:8)(CCN113). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
86.Not to commit incest with one's sister (Lev. 18:9)(CCN127). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
87.Not to commit incest with one's father's wife's daughter (Lev. 18:11)(CCN128). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
88.Not to commit incest with one's son's daughter (Lev. 18:10)(CCN119)(Note: CC treats this and the next as one commandment; however, Rambam treats them as two). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
89.Not to commit incest with one's daughter's daughter (Lev. 18:10)(CCN119)(Note: CC treats this and the previous as one commandment; however, Rambam treats them as two). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
90.Not to commit incest with one's daughter (this is not explicitly in the Torah but is inferred from other explicit commands that would include it)(CCN120). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
91.Not to commit incest with one's fathers sister (Lev. 18:12)(CCN129). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
92.Not to commit incest with one's mother's sister (Lev. 18:13)(CCN130). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
93.Not to commit incest with one's father's brothers wife (Lev. 18:14)(CCN125). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
94.Not to commit sodomy with one's father's brother (Lev. 18:14)(CCN114).
95.Not to commit incest with one's son's wife (Lev. 18:15)(CCN115). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
96.Not to commit incest with one's brother's wife (Lev. 18:16)(CCN126). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
97.Not to commit incest with one's wife's daughter (Lev. 18:17)(CCN121). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
98.Not to commit incest with the daughter of one's wife's son (Lev. 18:17)(CCN122). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
99.Not to commit incest with the daughter of one's wife's daughter (Lev. 18:17)(CCN123). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
100.Not to commit incest with one's wife's sister (Lev. 18:18)(CCN131). See Prohibited Marriages and Illegitimate Children.
101.Not to have intercourse with a woman, in her menstrual period (Lev. 18:19)(CCN132).
102.Not to have intercourse with another man's wife (Lev. 18:20)(CCN124).
103.Not to commit sodomy with a male (Lev. 18:22)(CCN116).
104.Not to have intercourse with a beast (Lev. 18:23)(CCN117).
105.That a woman shall not have intercourse with a beast (Lev. 18:23)(CCN118).
106.Not to castrate the male of any species; neither a man, nor a domestic or wild beast, nor a fowl (Lev. 2
Noahide Principle:

Incestuous and adulterous relations are forbidden.

I note with interest that all of your citations are to the post Exodus era and none are to Genesis.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#20
Nov 21, 2012
 
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
Noahide Principle:
Incestuous and adulterous relations are forbidden.
I note with interest that all of your citations are to the post Exodus era and none are to Genesis.
1. If you list the commandments as is done in the 613 you will get much more than your 9.

2. Illicit sex in the 613 has 25 commandments. How many of them can non-Jews do?

3. Point 2 is asking how many of the post-Exodus prohibitions are applicable to non-Jews?

4. List those that are applicable and you will get a greater number than 9 or 7. In other words list the applicable ones just as it is done when listing the 613.

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