John 17:3 who has the correct renditi...

John 17:3 who has the correct renditiion of this importand scripturet?

Created by Grandpasmurf952 on Aug 27, 2010

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KIng James version

American Standard translation

New World Translation

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“Mystical Atheism for everyone!”

Since: Nov 08

El Cerrito California

#1 Aug 27, 2010
Here is a simple yet very serious challenge that has been uncommitted on by any Jehovah's Witness here on topix today.(yesterday)

Gareth wrote:
<quoted text>
Its the one with God and Jesus in it. Its the one that Jehovah's Witnesses belong to."

Each and every one of us is ONE with GOD as Jesus said. The problem is your organization denies this profound truth and has actually modified your New World Translation to prove this to people door to door.

Not everyone brings out their own translation modified to fit their doctrine.

But your leaders did with the New World Translation and you have yet to answer my questions.

You still have not responded to my repeated requests for an explanation of why your leaders took it upon themselves to alter John 17:3 to point away from GOD and toward the collection of books of your leaders instead.

from the New International translation of the bible we read:

"3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent"

Yet in the New World Translation we read:

"3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."

Why the need to change this scripture? None of the other accepted translations have done so. Why has the organization altered this scripture that clearly shows the importance of the mystical message of Jesus to instead point towards the book collection of your leaders rather than towards GOD as Jesus said?

(mysticism in the sense that I am using it simply means conscious awareness of GOD)

In another scripture, Mathew 22:34-40, Jesus clearly says the only requirement for
attaining eternal life is loving God and loving our neighbor:

"Matthew 22:35-40 (New International Version)

35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:

36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"

37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

39 And the second is like it:'Love your neighbor as yourself.

40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

The serious problem we face if we accept the rendition of your leaders of John 17:3 is that the most important commandment in the whole bible according to Jesus is to LOVE GOD!

Now it is not possible for a human to love someone they do not know!

Yet by altering this scripture in the New World Translation to point towards the organization's book collection instead of GOD, your governing body denies any who follow your organization's New World Translation the opportunity for everlasting life according to the most important commandment stated by Jesus.

Getting to know GOD and build a personal relationship with GOD is the core teaching of true Christianity.

Yet your organization denies this can be done and has actually altered your New World Translation to prove your point!

Can you explain why they have done this Gareth?

Studying the various translations of the scriptures that people use it appears that the New World Translation is unique in translating it in this way.

I am sure a lot of people here on topix would like to hear your explanation of why it was ok for your leaders to alter the words of the bible!

The core teaching of the historical Jesus and the early Christians was about forming a personal relationship with GOD.

Could you explain why the governing body disagrees with Jesus and wants people to read about their version of GOD in the publications printed by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society instead and disfellowships anyone who asks questions such as this?

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#2 Aug 27, 2010
Actually the footnote to that scripture says this:

*** Rbi8 John 17:3 ***
Or, "their knowing you." Gr., hina ginoskosi se.

The Greek word 'ginoskosi' is in the PRESENT tense and the ACTIVE voice. So it is something that one is doing now, not something that was completed in the past or that must be done in the future.

We KNOW God by taking in of spiritual food:

*** Matt 4:4 But he answered, "It is written,'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God'."

Since: Oct 09

Location hidden

#3 Aug 27, 2010
Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
Here is a simple yet very serious challenge that has been uncommitted on by any Jehovah's Witness here on topix today.(yesterday)
Gareth wrote:
<quoted text>
Its the one with God and Jesus in it. Its the one that Jehovah's Witnesses belong to."
Each and every one of us is ONE with GOD as Jesus said. The problem is your organization denies this profound truth and has actually modified your New World Translation to prove this to people door to door.
Not everyone brings out their own translation modified to fit their doctrine.
But your leaders did with the New World Translation and you have yet to answer my questions.
You still have not responded to my repeated requests for an explanation of why your leaders took it upon themselves to alter John 17:3 to point away from GOD and toward the collection of books of your leaders instead.
from the New International translation of the bible we read:
"3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent"
Yet in the New World Translation we read:
"3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."
Why the need to change this scripture? None of the other accepted translations have done so. Why has the organization altered this scripture that clearly shows the importance of the mystical message of Jesus to instead point towards the book collection of your leaders rather than towards GOD as Jesus said?
(mysticism in the sense that I am using it simply means conscious awareness of GOD)
In another scripture, Mathew 22:34-40, Jesus clearly says the only requirement for
attaining eternal life is loving God and loving our neighbor:
"Matthew 22:35-40 (New International Version)
35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it:'Love your neighbor as yourself.
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
The serious problem we face if we accept the rendition of your leaders of John 17:3 is that the most important commandment in the whole bible according to Jesus is to LOVE GOD!
Now it is not possible for a human to love someone they do not know!
Yet by altering this scripture in the New World Translation to point towards the organization's book collection instead of GOD, your governing body denies any who follow your organization's New World Translation the opportunity for everlasting life according to the most important commandment stated by Jesus.
Getting to know GOD and build a personal relationship with GOD is the core teaching of true Christianity.
Yet your organization denies this can be done and has actually altered your New World Translation to prove your point!
Can you explain why they have done this Gareth?
Studying the various translations of the scriptures that people use it appears that the New World Translation is unique in translating it in this way.
I am sure a lot of people here on topix would like to hear your explanation of why it was ok for your leaders to alter the words of the bible!
The core teaching of the historical Jesus and the early Christians was about forming a personal relationship with GOD.
Could you explain why the governing body disagrees with Jesus and wants people to read about their version of GOD in the publications printed by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society instead and disfellowships anyone who asks questions such as this?
We ALL know (except JW's) that the NWT was adulterated to fit the organizational goals. Remember, you can't argue rationally with the irrational.

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#4 Aug 27, 2010
Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
I am sure a lot of people here on topix would like to hear your explanation of why it was ok for your leaders to alter the words of the bible!
You come to that conclusion without any understanding of the Greek language that the Bible was written in.

Here is what the THOROUGHLY RESPECTED Vines Expository Dictionary has to say about the Greek word used in John 17:3 (

== Quote: Vine's Dictionary:==

http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines...

ginosko signifies "to be taking in knowledge, to come to know, recognize, understand," or "to understand completely,"

...

The same idea of appreciation as well as "knowledge" underlies several statements concerning the "knowledge" of God and His truth on the part of believers, e.g., John_8:32; John_14:20,31; John_17:3; Gal_4:9 (1st part); 1_John_2:3,13,14; 1_John_4:6,8,16; 1_John_5:20; such "knowledge" is obtained, not by mere intellectual activity, but by operation of the Holy Spirit consequent upon acceptance of Christ.

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#5 Aug 27, 2010
So the NWT is probably more accurate than the average translation conveying that KNOWLEDGE as well as UNDERSTANDING are being spoken of.

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#6 Aug 27, 2010
No2Reichwing wrote:
We ALL know (except JW's) that the NWT was adulterated to fit the organizational goals. Remember, you can't argue rationally with the irrational.
I'm guessing that you are either good with the Greek language or you are taking someone else's word for it.

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#7 Aug 27, 2010
Also if we go here: http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi...

And click on the Greek word 'ginwskwsin' we get to THIS definition:

http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi...

Which says:

to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
to become known
to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
to understand
to know
Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
to become acquainted with, to know

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#8 Aug 27, 2010
Although other translations do not get this verse wrong, they don't really convey the full meaning. The NWT is really the only translation that get this right.

Although the Weymouth translation does carry this footnote:

knowing]Or, as the tense implies,'an ever-enlarging knowledge of.'"

“Mystical Atheism for everyone!”

Since: Nov 08

El Cerrito California

#9 Aug 27, 2010
Gareth wrote:
Actually the footnote to that scripture says this:
*** Rbi8 John 17:3 ***
Or, "their knowing you." Gr., hina ginoskosi se.
The Greek word 'ginoskosi' is in the PRESENT tense and the ACTIVE voice. So it is something that one is doing now, not something that was completed in the past or that must be done in the future.
We KNOW God by taking in of spiritual food:
*** Matt 4:4 But he answered, "It is written,'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God'."
Well, Gareth, the The Greek word ginosko in John 17:3 means "KNOW", not "knowledge". By the Watchtower Society using knowledge instead and inserting the words take in, they are able to come up with the rendering of John 17:3 in the New World Translation. But this does not make it so and it is not accepted by anyone but your organization.

If you compare Matt. 1:25 with John 17:3 and note that ginosko is found in both verses you will find that this term carries a meaning of intimacy and relationship with it. That fact is suggested by ginosko and it's immediate sense. Taking in knowledge is not even close!

WE do not know god by taking in the so called spiritual food of your organization anymore then you do not know someone by reading their biography. In fact you could "Know" someone for years and not have knowledge of the facts pertaining to this person that are in the biography.

GOD is LOVE. Jesus called him Father. Jesus also said that all of us were children of GOD. A child knows his or her father not by taking in second hand knowledge but having a real and intimate relationship with the father and like I have said repeatedly, You can not LOVE whom you do not know!

Your organization maintains an animosity towards the mystical approach to knowing GOD and have changed the wording in the New World translation to reflect this. While this could have been done unintentionally it was done.

I am not claiming it was a deliberate act and of course your leaders admitting the error and apologizing to those who were misled would show that it was not but if it is not remedied that would mean that your organization is deliberately pointing people away from GOD! Jesus said the MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT IS TO LOVE GOD WITH YOUR WHOLE MIND, YOUR WHOLE HEART, AND YOUR WHOLE SOUL! How can those in the organization comply with this commandment if they are lied to?

Ignoring this problem is not going to make it go away.

Not in the information age we are now in.

GOD is LOVE. WE are ALL ONE WITH GOD, even the unloving!

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#10 Aug 27, 2010
The purpose of the NWT is to make scripture clearer. I don't see what the big deal is Smurf...It says what it means...why the fuss about it?
Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
Here is a simple yet very serious challenge that has been uncommitted on by any Jehovah's Witness here on topix today.(yesterday)
Gareth wrote:
<quoted text>
Its the one with God and Jesus in it. Its the one that Jehovah's Witnesses belong to."
Each and every one of us is ONE with GOD as Jesus said. The problem is your organization denies this profound truth and has actually modified your New World Translation to prove this to people door to door.
Not everyone brings out their own translation modified to fit their doctrine.
But your leaders did with the New World Translation and you have yet to answer my questions.
You still have not responded to my repeated requests for an explanation of why your leaders took it upon themselves to alter John 17:3 to point away from GOD and toward the collection of books of your leaders instead.
from the New International translation of the bible we read:
"3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent"
Yet in the New World Translation we read:
"3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."
Why the need to change this scripture? None of the other accepted translations have done so. Why has the organization altered this scripture that clearly shows the importance of the mystical message of Jesus to instead point towards the book collection of your leaders rather than towards GOD as Jesus said?
(mysticism in the sense that I am using it simply means conscious awareness of GOD)
In another scripture, Mathew 22:34-40, Jesus clearly says the only requirement for
attaining eternal life is loving God and loving our neighbor:
"Matthew 22:35-40 (New International Version)
35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it:'Love your neighbor as yourself.
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
The serious problem we face if we accept the rendition of your leaders of John 17:3 is that the most important commandment in the whole bible according to Jesus is to LOVE GOD!
Now it is not possible for a human to love someone they do not know!
Yet by altering this scripture in the New World Translation to point towards the organization's book collection instead of GOD, your governing body denies any who follow your organization's New World Translation the opportunity for everlasting life according to the most important commandment stated by Jesus.
Getting to know GOD and build a personal relationship with GOD is the core teaching of true Christianity.
Yet your organization denies this can be done and has actually altered your New World Translation to prove your point!
Can you explain why they have done this Gareth?
Studying the various translations of the scriptures that people use it appears that the New World Translation is unique in translating it in this way.
I am sure a lot of people here on topix would like to hear your explanation of why it was ok for your leaders to alter the words of the bible!
The core teaching of the historical Jesus and the early Christians was about forming a personal relationship with GOD.
Could you explain why the governing body disagrees with Jesus and wants people to read about their version of GOD in the publications printed by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society instead and disfellowships anyone who asks questions such as this?

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#11 Aug 27, 2010
Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, Gareth, the The Greek word ginosko in John 17:3 means "KNOW", not "knowledge".
Why not check with the Greek dictionary:

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

“Mystical Atheism for everyone!”

Since: Nov 08

El Cerrito California

#12 Aug 28, 2010
Gareth wrote:
<quoted text>
Why not check with the Greek dictionary:
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Knowledge translates to epiginosko in the Greek. If facts about God were what was meant this word would have been used. It was not.

So if we were to use the rendition of your leaders using the word "ginosko" with the words that your translators have added, "taking in", it would read "this means taking in know of you."

The word "know" can be used in different ways it is true but in this particulate scripture John 17:3 it was meant in the intimate personal way with both GOD and Jesus Christ and of course this fact coupled with the commandment to LOVE GOD with our whole minds,our whole hearts, and our whole souls makes the correct rendition of this verse critical as human beings can not love whom they do not know.

And we are human beings Gareth . We confirm the simple reality of our true nature that Jesus pointed out by applying ourselves to the understanding of John 17:3, Luke 17:21, and Mathew 22:34-40. If these scriptures are properly translated and grasped.

Your organization is not unique in denying the mystical nature of the message of Jesus and twisting scriptures unknowingly in an effort to defend your position. This denial is and has been emphasized with vigor by the Roman version of Christianity which saw the simple truth of Jesus as a threat and this of course holds true for all of the organizations such as yours today that have mistakenly fallen for this false form of Christianity.

Today though with historical findings and scientific evidence the scene is rapidly changing.

Ironically with all the fear of the word "Mystic" amongst fundamentalists it describes Jesus perfectly as he illustrated when he said "The Father and I are ONE but the Father is greater than I"

A mystic is simply one that has a conscious relationship with GOD as Jesus said! That's all!

GOD is LOVE. WE are ALL ONE WITH GOD, even the unloving!

The results of the translators beliefs should not enter in but at times they clearly do and such is the case here.

“Mystical Atheism for everyone!”

Since: Nov 08

El Cerrito California

#13 Aug 28, 2010
Nomi wrote:
The purpose of the NWT is to make scripture clearer. I don't see what the big deal is Smurf...It says what it means...why the fuss about it?
<quoted text>
Nomi, the fuss is quite simple. The New World Translation has not made this scripture clearer! The Governing body has made a grievous error in diverting the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses away from developing a personal relationship with both GOD and Jesus Christ by what they have done.
The New World Translation has made other subtle errors too in an effort to defend the doctrine of the Organization.
Your governing body builds it's whole reputation on being accurate in their understanding of what true Christianity is all about but denies the core message of Jesus who said we can each have a personal relationship with GOD.
I don't think they have done this maliciously as some seem to believe but the fact remains that the New World Translation is dangerously wrong in their interpretation of John 17:3 that is somewhat unique even amongst fundamentalist religions and does not add up with the original text!
GOD is LOVE. WE are ALL ONE WITH GOD, even the unloving!
Pam

Honolulu, HI

#14 Aug 28, 2010
Nomi wrote:
The purpose of the NWT is to make scripture clearer. I don't see what the big deal is Smurf...It says what it means...why the fuss about it?
<quoted text>
You are kidding, right?
The NWT doesn't make scripture clearer. It adds to and twists and blurs what the bible teaches.
If I tell you I have knowledge of you do you think that means I KNOW you?

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#15 Aug 28, 2010
Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, Gareth, the The Greek word ginosko in John 17:3 means "KNOW", not "knowledge". By the Watchtower Society using knowledge instead and inserting the words take in, they are able to come up with the rendering of John 17:3 in the New World Translation. But this does not make it so and it is not accepted by anyone but your organization.
If you compare Matt. 1:25 with John 17:3 and note that ginosko is found in both verses you will find that this term carries a meaning of intimacy and relationship with it. That fact is suggested by ginosko and it's immediate sense. Taking in knowledge is not even close!
WE do not know god by taking in the so called spiritual food of your organization anymore then you do not know someone by reading their biography. In fact you could "Know" someone for years and not have knowledge of the facts pertaining to this person that are in the biography.
GOD is LOVE. Jesus called him Father. Jesus also said that all of us were children of GOD. A child knows his or her father not by taking in second hand knowledge but having a real and intimate relationship with the father and like I have said repeatedly, You can not LOVE whom you do not know!
Your organization maintains an animosity towards the mystical approach to knowing GOD and have changed the wording in the New World translation to reflect this. While this could have been done unintentionally it was done.
I am not claiming it was a deliberate act and of course your leaders admitting the error and apologizing to those who were misled would show that it was not but if it is not remedied that would mean that your organization is deliberately pointing people away from GOD! Jesus said the MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT IS TO LOVE GOD WITH YOUR WHOLE MIND, YOUR WHOLE HEART, AND YOUR WHOLE SOUL! How can those in the organization comply with this commandment if they are lied to?
Ignoring this problem is not going to make it go away.
Not in the information age we are now in.
GOD is LOVE. WE are ALL ONE WITH GOD, even the unloving!
If its all the same to you, I'll go with the experts opinion:

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#16 Aug 28, 2010
Pam wrote:
You are kidding, right?
The NWT doesn't make scripture clearer. It adds to and twists and blurs what the bible teaches.
If I tell you I have knowledge of you do you think that means I KNOW you?
You are kidding, right?

The NWT makes scripture much much clearer. Particularly in this verse.

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#17 Aug 28, 2010
Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
<quoted text>
Nomi, the fuss is quite simple. The New World Translation has not made this scripture clearer! The Governing body has made a grievous error in diverting the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses away from developing a personal relationship with both GOD and Jesus Christ by what they have done.
The New World Translation has made other subtle errors too in an effort to defend the doctrine of the Organization.
Your governing body builds it's whole reputation on being accurate in their understanding of what true Christianity is all about but denies the core message of Jesus who said we can each have a personal relationship with GOD.
I don't think they have done this maliciously as some seem to believe but the fact remains that the New World Translation is dangerously wrong in their interpretation of John 17:3 that is somewhat unique even amongst fundamentalist religions and does not add up with the original text!
GOD is LOVE. WE are ALL ONE WITH GOD, even the unloving!
What is it about this that you are having difficulty with?

http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines...
Pam

Honolulu, HI

#18 Aug 28, 2010
Gareth wrote:
<quoted text>
You are kidding, right?
The NWT makes scripture much much clearer. Particularly in this verse.
Yay! I love openings!

Let's take the NWTY of the word proskuneo.
How does the NWT render it?
Well, when it is used in connection with God the Father, the NWT renderes it worship.
But since they have Jwesus as an angel they can;t worship an angel so they translate the exact same word as obeicence.
Such as at Hebrews 1:6.

How about we look at Acts 20:28.
The NWT adds "Son" to it.
Changing the meaning.
Other translations correctly say "the church of God that he purchased with his own blood."
Only the NWT adds the wrod Son which isn't found in ANY Greek manuscript anywhere.

I think it is wrong to insert words into translations that are not there in order to change the meaning to fit a doctrine the way ther WTS has done.

Dr Robert Countess said about the NWT "it "has been sharply unsuccesful in keeping doctinal considerations from influencing the actual translation...it must be viewed as a radiacaly biased piece of work.At some points actually dishonest.At others it is neither modern nor scholarly."

British scholar HHRowley said "From begining to end this volume is a shining example of how the bible should not be translated."

All sorts of bible scholars agreed and had much to say about how shocking it was to see such mistranslations.

We have gone over them here countless times.
You know the tranlators were NOT scholars that made up this NWT.
We all know it today.
Instead of giving an unbiased true translation Franz and the boys used other translations and worked around the versesd to fit JW established doctrine.
And that is a fact.

“Mystical Atheism for everyone!”

Since: Nov 08

El Cerrito California

#19 Aug 28, 2010
Gareth wrote:
<quoted text>
What is it about this that you are having difficulty with?
http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines...
I am not having any difficulty with it, but those who follow the mistaken interpretation of the organization are as I have been pointing out repeatedly without any response from you til I started this poll.

I have already said quite a bit about it but like you say you don't read my posts just skim them.

I have actually been quite excited about the opportunity the correct rendition of John 17:3 offers to the Jehovah's Witness that take the time to do honest research on it. This is in dramatic contrast to the teaching of your organization that is constantly being adjusted as "New Light" and leaves people in a state of constant fear of not being good enough for Jehovah.

Jesus said "GOD is LOVE" and "The kingdom of GOD is within you". A lot of people have began to work on themselves to incorporate this wonderful truth into their day to day lives.

But your organization with it's denial of this truth and the audicity to come out with your own translation to strenthen your stance is hindering millions of people from forming a real intimate relationship with GOD which is the core of real Christianity!

Luke 17:21 and Mathew 22:34-40 together with John 17:3 present us with a wonderful and easy to use method to experience the core experience of Christianity which again I have posted before and again as you have pointed out you don't really read my posts before attacking, you simply skim rapidly looking for points to jump on in a negative way with no attempt to understand what I am talking about.

So I am really writing this for those who are struggling to extricate themselves from the insanity.

GOD is LOVE. WE are ALL ONE WITH GOD, even the unloving!

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#20 Aug 28, 2010
Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
I have already said quite a bit about it but like you say you don't read my posts just skim them.
One reason I skim your posts is that I have given you EXCELLENT reasons why the NWT translation of this verse is very good and in line with what ACCEPTED Greek experts say.

And you have no interest because it doesn't fit your agenda.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

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