was jesus worshipped?
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“email at ihveit@aol.com ”

Since: Dec 07

central louisiana

#1 Oct 21, 2012
SURE HE WAS TILL THE JWS CAME ALONG
GKR TROUGHT THIS up on another thread.. to distract or change the subect? probably

on that thread he claimed:
Proskuneo - "meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand), to fawn or crouch to, homage (do reverence to,
adore): worship." It occurs 59 times in the New Testament.

so lets just start here.. to do obeisance is simply uding the defination of a word.. and he gave no defination here..

and now for the beginning of destroying the straw man they built up and misled the people

in english worship is used some 73 times in the NT.. many of them have no bearing on prokuneo for now... now according to MY SOURCES AT THE TIME i found that proscuneo was only used 55 times and not 59 as claimed by gkrs

lets remember its clear this word is used 15 times in reference to JESUS...

NOW the word as "worship" IS USED in regards to the devil, the dragon, the beast, the image, demons, idols, and an angel. Of course, they correctly translate it as "worship" when it deals with God. but NEVER JESUS..

THIS SHOULD BE OF CONCERN TO TRUE BIBLE STUDENTS.. ITS THE SAME WORD FOLKS.. so the wt was very biased in their usage of the SAME GREEK WORD..

on a side note they published the first nwmt and claimed in writing it was the most accurate bible today.. then someone pointed out they left one place where they claimed JESUS was worshipped.. so along comes a new accurate translation..

more is certain to come to show i beleive JESUS WAS WORSHIPPED
WILL

“email at ihveit@aol.com ”

Since: Dec 07

central louisiana

#2 Oct 21, 2012
on this subject we dont need to even consult a bunch of experts the english and the greek is sufficient..
will

“email at ihveit@aol.com ”

Since: Dec 07

central louisiana

#3 Oct 21, 2012
back lol wife keeps inturrupting me

let me say this;
the fact that the use of this word in reference to Christ doesn't necessarily and automatically mean men worshipped Him. So it remains for us to solve the problem AND THIS I WILL DO
will
little lamb

Australia

#4 Oct 21, 2012
Jesus told us that his flesh was of no use at all..and that it was his sayings that were spirit and truth.

So seeing ones around here want to make a fuss about people 'worshiping' Jesus in the FLESH...it might be of interest to know Jesus "saying" that is spirit and life, actually tells us

" It is Jehovah your God you must worship and to him alone you must reneder sacred service"

He also tells us " true worshipers, will worship the Father in spirit and truth"

So Jesus words are TRUTH and they are SPIRIT..He has taught us worship is TO THE FATHER

And that the Father is looking for such like ones .

So this is encouragement to listen to JESUS WORDS.

Because men's false teachings will blow you around like the wind.

Since: Jan 12

United States

#5 Oct 21, 2012
little lamb, when jesus told satan to worship god, it was not because satan was worshipping jesus..

jesus said that because satan was suggesting to worship himself, satan.

so please don't suggest that jesus' response meant that he wasn't the creator nor god in the flesh
little lamb

Australia

#6 Oct 21, 2012
Sorry Red..but Jesus said it is Jehovah your God you must worship"

and he told his Apostles pretty clearly " God is a spirit [ Jesus was flesh] and true worshipers must worship the FATHER in spirit and truth"

Jesus doesn't lie..he said FATHER ..ABBA.

Since: Jan 12

United States

#7 Oct 21, 2012
yup little lamb..... jesus told satan to worship god,... not to get people to worship himself, like he suggested to jesus.
jesus never suggested he was the father.... he only suggested he was the word of god in the flesh, the only begotton son, the exact representation of the father, the very substance of it all.

do you know what context is all about, little lamb?

what were you saying again? and claiming your sorry about?
sick of the cult

Marlinton, WV

#8 Oct 21, 2012
little lamb wrote:
Jesus told us that his flesh was of no use at all..and that it was his sayings that were spirit and truth.
So seeing ones around here want to make a fuss about people 'worshiping' Jesus in the FLESH...it might be of interest to know Jesus "saying" that is spirit and life, actually tells us
" It is Jehovah your God you must worship and to him alone you must reneder sacred service"
He also tells us " true worshipers, will worship the Father in spirit and truth"
So Jesus words are TRUTH and they are SPIRIT..He has taught us worship is TO THE FATHER
And that the Father is looking for such like ones .
So this is encouragement to listen to JESUS WORDS.
Because men's false teachings will blow you around like the wind.
Religous scholars and theologians the world over, accept the foundational truth that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, Emmanuel-God with us. Don't let a group of eight, uneducated, ungodly men-men who fleece the flock for their own gain- don't let them hide the reality of Christ from you. You have been indoctrinated otherwise but Jesus is GOd-the SOn. Whenever those around him bowed in worship he nevver told them to get up off their knees- he accepted their adoration time and again.

“GOD IS LOVE”

Since: Aug 09

WE ARE ALL ONE

#9 Oct 21, 2012
worship:

verb;

1. praise, respect, honour, adore, revere, glorify, reverence, exalt, laud, pray to, venerate, deify, adulate (people who still worship the pagan gods)

2. love, adore, idolize, put on a pedestal (The children worship their father.)

noun;

praise, love, regard, respect, honour, glory, prayer(s), devotion, homage, reverence, adulation, adoration, admiration, exaltation, glorification, deification, laudation (The temple had been a centre of worship of the goddess Hathor.)

....Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © Harper Collins Publishers 1995, 2002

~~~~~~~~~~

When we look up the definition of "worship" in any number of places....I feel that we can very well apply meanings of the word to either the Father Creator OR to Jesus.

“email at ihveit@aol.com ”

Since: Dec 07

central louisiana

#10 Oct 21, 2012
little lamb wrote:
Sorry Red..but Jesus said it is Jehovah your God you must worship"
ihv WHERE DID HE SAY THAT.. SPECIFICALLY
will
and he told his Apostles pretty clearly " God is a spirit [ Jesus was flesh] and true worshipers must worship the FATHER in spirit and truth"
Jesus doesn't lie..he said FATHER ..ABBA.
ihv and i am going to prove to you that you are confused.. i am going to prove that JESUS deserves THE SAME WORSHIP AS THE FATHER..

your misrepresenting scripture by adding false names to the scripture is part of your problem
will

“email at ihveit@aol.com ”

Since: Dec 07

central louisiana

#11 Oct 21, 2012
Nedoba wrote:
worship:
verb;
1. praise, respect, honour, adore, revere, glorify, reverence, exalt, laud, pray to, venerate, deify, adulate (people who still worship the pagan gods)
2. love, adore, idolize, put on a pedestal (The children worship their father.)
noun;
praise, love, regard, respect, honour, glory, prayer(s), devotion, homage, reverence, adulation, adoration, admiration, exaltation, glorification, deification, laudation (The temple had been a centre of worship of the goddess Hathor.)
....Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © Harper Collins Publishers 1995, 2002
~~~~~~~~~~
When we look up the definition of "worship" in any number of places....I feel that we can very well apply meanings of the word to either the Father Creator OR to Jesus.
ihv i am going to prove in some instances JESUS was worshippe and there is no doubt about it..

and i know in some places even though proscuneo was used it did mean true worship but respect.. but in no uncertain terms JESUS WAS WORSHIPPED and not simply bowed down to..

jws dont realize that in some cases bowing is not the same as what they claim
will

“email at ihveit@aol.com ”

Since: Dec 07

central louisiana

#12 Oct 21, 2012
POST 2 IN A SERIES
First Eph 3:14 For this cause I BOW my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Is this an act of worship to the father or not? I HAVE TO ASK because this bowing is not proscuneo. This word bow is a very important word in discussing this.

MOST IMPORTANT remember this… Jesus said to proskuneo (worship)no one but the Father. This is in Matthew 4 and Luke 4,. We also see the angel in Revelation 19:10 and 22:9 saying, " proskuneo (worship) one but the Father."

parallel accounts of Jesus' temptation in which Satan asks Jesus to bow down. The word used is proskuneo now how did the wt translate this one? Lets take a look

The kjv has it
Mt 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
And the nwt? Uhhh ohhhh
, 9 and he said to him:“All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.

I would have one notice that both claim that satan said to do TWO THINGS..
1) bow down
2) WORSHIP
NOW in greek the word pipto is used for bow down
In the greek we see proscuneo used for worship

So we see two different actions being wanted.. BOW DOWN AND WORSHIP
This will become important as we move alone..

“GOD IS LOVE”

Since: Aug 09

WE ARE ALL ONE

#13 Oct 21, 2012
ihveit wrote:
<quoted text>
ihv i am going to prove in some instances JESUS was worshippe and there is no doubt about it..
and i know in some places even though proscuneo was used it did mean true worship but respect.. but in no uncertain terms JESUS WAS WORSHIPPED and not simply bowed down to..
jws dont realize that in some cases bowing is not the same as what they claim
will
No matter what is proven and whatever evidence is shown (on any number of subjects that are touched on here :o) I feel it is how each of us feels....as individuals....pertaining to the importance of having Jesus in our lives and the impact that becoming born again has had on us. For any that prefer to hand Jesus a demotion, those that prefer to turn their backs on him and his offer of communion, and those that prefer to NOT rejoice as the angels did on the eve of his birth....that is their decision and one that their salvation depends upon.

May we all grow in love and grow in Christ. "God wanted his people throughout the world to know the glorious riches of this mystery...which is Christ living in you, giving you the hope of glory."...Col 1:27

“email at ihveit@aol.com ”

Since: Dec 07

central louisiana

#14 Oct 21, 2012
Nedoba wrote:
<quoted text>
No matter what is proven and whatever evidence is shown (on any number of subjects that are touched on here :o) I feel it is how each of us feels....as individuals....pertaining to the importance of having Jesus in our lives and the impact that becoming born again has had on us. For any that prefer to hand Jesus a demotion, those that prefer to turn their backs on him and his offer of communion, and those that prefer to NOT rejoice as the angels did on the eve of his birth....that is their decision and one that their salvation depends upon.
May we all grow in love and grow in Christ. "God wanted his people throughout the world to know the glorious riches of this mystery...which is Christ living in you, giving you the hope of glory."...Col 1:27
ihv all is well and good but sometimes we need to realize we gotta destroy walls to get to the heart of the matter...

i dont understand why it appears you are not wanting this subject to be discussed?
will

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#15 Oct 21, 2012
ihveit wrote:
on this subject we dont need to even consult a bunch of experts the english and the greek is sufficient..
will
According to the original language Greek, no one in the Bible ever worshiped Jesus. Some people bowed down to Jesus.

Some translations choose to translate the word for "bow" as "worship", but they are going beyond what is actually written.

“"Leave the dead horses alone"”

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#16 Oct 21, 2012
For an in depth study and review of the word proskyneo I would direct people to here: http://www.jehovah.to/xlation/wo.html

The Fifteen Cases Involving Jesus Christ

The above principles provide us with more than enough guidance in order to decide how to translate the 15 occurrences of proskuneo with regard to Jesus Christ.

Three instances of the verb proskuneo involving Christ have to do with his birth. It is said that the three magi came to visit Jesus in order to 'do him obeisance' and that Herod, too, wished to 'do him obeisance'.(Matthew 2:2, 8, 11). Did the astrologers believe that Jesus was the Son of God? Did Herod? All they knew was that Jesus was called "King of the Jews".(Matthew 2:2). We have already established that it was customary to do obeisance to kings. Nothing in these accounts indicates that the translation 'worship' would be appropriate. They did not refer to the child even as the 'Son of God', not to mention God himself!

Numerous people approached Jesus and bowed down before him during his earthly ministry. Matthew 8:2 recounts how a beggar did obeisance to Jesus and asked to be healed. This man "entreated him on bended knee" (Mark 1:40). Nothing indicates that the man believed Jesus to be God. He was simply begging Jesus for a favour, just as the slave in Jesus' parable did obeisance to his master and begged for a favour.

Similarly, Matthew 9:18 tells us that Jairus 'did obeisance' to Jesus. Again, a parallel account gives a synonym: he 'fell at his feet'(Luke 18:41). These are the actions of a man requesting a great favour. Nothing points to an act of worship in this passage. The Phoenician woman mentioned in Matthew 15:25 also belongs here; she was begging Jesus to cure her demonized daughter. So, too, the mother of the sons of Zebedee, who asked a favour (Matthew 20:20), and a man from whom Jesus expelled demons (Mark 5:6)

Mark 15:19 tells us that the Roman soldiers 'did obeisance' to Christ. It is scarcely possible that anyone would contend that this was an act of worship! As far as the Romans were concerned, Jesus was being executed for claiming to be "King of the Jews". As we have already established, the correct way to behave in the presence of a king was to bow down. The soldiers were mocking Jesus' claim to be a king by cynically bowing down to him.[11]

We have seen, then, that in the above cases, there is absolutely no reason to conclude that the persons involved - most of them not believers - were actually worshipping Christ. They simply fell at his feet, in harmony with the prevailing custom of the day. What about cases where Christ's disciples 'did obeisance' to him, before and after his resurrection. Do these prove that Christ was worshipped?

Matthew 14:33 informs us that the disciples 'did obeisance' to Christ after he had silenced a great storm. John 9:38 tells us that a blind man who had been healed by Christ put faith in him and 'did obeisance' to him. Matthew 28:9 tells us that women who saw the resurrected Jesus 'did obeisance' to him, and Luke 24:52 tells us that other disciples did so too.

Is the New World Translation correct in rendering these verses as 'did obeisance' rather than 'worshipped'? Remember that 'do obeisance' is a broader term than 'worship'. It describes a specific act, which, in certain circumstances could imply worship, but does not always. If we can demonstrate that the disciples believed Jesus to be God, then we are justified in using the word 'worship'. Otherwise, we are better off sticking with 'did obeisance' or something similar. Since a physical act of bowing down is being described, the rendering 'did obeisance' is definitely correct, regardless of whether the disciples believed that Jesus was God or not, whereas the term 'worshipped' would only be correct if the disciples did believe such a thing. So the New World Translation can not be faulted for choosing the rendering that is definitely correct in these verses.[12]

“"Leave the dead horses alone"”

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#17 Oct 21, 2012
Did the disciples believe that Jesus was God? That is a topic for another discussion, but there is one very interesting point raised by Professor Jason Beduhn. It concerns Matthew 28:17: when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.(KJV)

and when they saw him they did obeisance, but some doubted.(NWT)

Can a person worship and doubt at the same time? As we have established above, the narrower rendering 'worship' can be justified only if we can prove that the disciples believed Jesus to be God. This verse indicates that some of them not only doubted that he is God, but they even doubted that it was Jesus. In these circumstances, the rendering 'worshipped' is very hard to justify.

The apostles could not have 'worshipped' and 'doubted' at the same time!


This leaves us with Hebrews 1:6, which in the New World Translation reads: "Let all God's angels do obeisance to him [that is, Christ]." The footnote very honestly admits that the phrase could be rendered by the alternate reading "worship him". Since Christ, as the Son of God, occupies a position much higher than that of the angels, it is only right that they should do him obeisance. But, again, we can not read more into Hebrews 1:6 than it is actually saying. If you believe Christ is God, then, clearly you will feel that the proskuneo here refers to worship. But if you are trying to use the proskuneo here to prove that Jesus is God, then your argument would be circular. It would be like saying that the verb must mean 'worship' because Jesus is God, and that he must be God because he is worshipped! You would be assuming the very thing you're trying to prove!

Let us summarize the evidence:

(1) Lexicons. All reliable lexicons list at least two meanings for proskuneo. One meaning is 'worship'; the other is 'bow low, prostrate oneself, do obeisance'

(2) Bible usage. It is clearly seen from a number of examples in the NT and the Septuagint that the verb is frequently used without any religious significance, simply as a gesture of respect, submission, and humility.

(3) Other Bible translations. It may be seen that other Bible translations, on occasion, agree with the NWT in not translating proskuneo as worship, when it refers to Jesus Christ.



So who is really biased - the New World Translation Committee or its critics? Let scholar Jason Beduhn answer:

"In our exploration of this issue, we can see how theological bias has been the determining context for the choices made by all of the translations except the NAB and NW. There are passages where many translators has interpreted the gesture referred to by the Greek term proskuneo as implying 'worship'. They have then substituted that interpretation in place of translation.... The translators seem to feel the need to add to the New Testament support for the idea that Jesus was recognized to be God. But the presence of such an idea cannot be supported by selectively translating a word one way when it refers to Jesus and another way when it refers to someone else.... When we observe how these same translators choose 'worship' when the gesture is made to Jesus by certain persons, and choose other English words to translate the very same Greek term when the gesture is directed to someone other than Jesus ... their inconsistency reveals their bias.
sick of the cult

Marlinton, WV

#18 Oct 22, 2012
Gods Kingdom Rules wrote:
Did the disciples believe that Jesus was God? That is a topic for another discussion, but there is one very interesting point raised by Professor Jason Beduhn. It concerns Matthew 28:17: when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.(KJV)
and when they saw him they did obeisance, but some doubted.(NWT)
Can a person worship and doubt at the same time? As we have established above, the narrower rendering 'worship' can be justified only if we can prove that the disciples believed Jesus to be God. This verse indicates that some of them not only doubted that he is God, but they even doubted that it was Jesus. In these circumstances, the rendering 'worshipped' is very hard to justify.
The apostles could not have 'worshipped' and 'doubted' at the same time!
This leaves us with Hebrews 1:6, which in the New World Translation reads: "Let all God's angels do obeisance to him [that is, Christ]." The footnote very honestly admits that the phrase could be rendered by the alternate reading "worship him". Since Christ, as the Son of God, occupies a position much higher than that of the angels, it is only right that they should do him obeisance. But, again, we can not read more into Hebrews 1:6 than it is actually saying. If you believe Christ is God, then, clearly you will feel that the proskuneo here refers to worship. But if you are trying to use the proskuneo here to prove that Jesus is God, then your argument would be circular. It would be like saying that the verb must mean 'worship' because Jesus is God, and that he must be God because he is worshipped! You would be assuming the very thing you're trying to prove!
Let us summarize the evidence:
(1) Lexicons. All reliable lexicons list at least two meanings for proskuneo. One meaning is 'worship'; the other is 'bow low, prostrate oneself, do obeisance'
(2) Bible usage. It is clearly seen from a number of examples in the NT and the Septuagint that the verb is frequently used without any religious significance, simply as a gesture of respect, submission, and humility.
(3) Other Bible translations. It may be seen that other Bible translations, on occasion, agree with the NWT in not translating proskuneo as worship, when it refers to Jesus Christ.
So who is really biased - the New World Translation Committee or its critics? Let scholar Jason Beduhn answer:
"In our exploration of this issue, we can see how theological bias has been the determining context for the choices made by all of the translations except the NAB and NW. There are passages where many translators has interpreted the gesture referred to by the Greek term proskuneo as implying 'worship'. They have then substituted that interpretation in place of translation.... The translators seem to feel the need to add to the New Testament support for the idea that Jesus was recognized to be God. But the presence of such an idea cannot be supported by selectively translating a word one way when it refers to Jesus and another way when it refers to someone else.... When we observe how these same translators choose 'worship' when the gesture is made to Jesus by certain persons, and choose other English words to translate the very same Greek term when the gesture is directed to someone other than Jesus ... their inconsistency reveals their bias.

Thus you continue the Arian heresy
Disciple

United States

#19 Oct 22, 2012
Ihveit stated:
SURE HE WAS TILL THE JWS CAME ALONG
GKR TROUGHT THIS up on another thread.. to distract or change the subect? probably

on that thread he claimed:
Proskuneo - "meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand), to fawn or crouch to, homage (do reverence to,
adore): worship." It occurs 59 times in the New Testament.

so lets just start here.. to do obeisance is simply uding the defination of a word.. and he gave no defination here..

and now for the beginning of destroying the straw man they built up and misled the people

in english worship is used some 73 times in the NT.. many of them have no bearing on prokuneo for now... now according to MY SOURCES AT THE TIME i found that proscuneo was only used 55 times and not 59 as claimed by gkrs

lets remember its clear this word is used 15 times in reference to JESUS.

Disciple>

The reason Christians,('like the angels')worship Jesus, is because the men who fell or bowed at his feet were doing what satan wanted Jesus to do in Matthew 4:9....'Notice what Greek word was used there?' The very same Greek word used in other places, also in Rev.'

The reason can also be found in the correct rendering of Jn. 1:12. and the word was God. You see the cult member wants to to go against what God has already said about this matter. Jesus was never formed,(created)- Isaiah 43:10.

He confimes this in Deuteronomy 32:39.

Any god spelled with a small g is a false god.
So Jesus is either a false god, or the true God.

The JW can't have it both ways. Bowing down to any god/god other than the true creator God, would be guilty of idolatry. Can you imagine the three Hebrew children bowing down to it and getting by with telling God in their prayers:"Father we were only showing him 'respect.'(thats what the WT wants you to think people were doing to Jesus when they were bowing down to,.. a 'god') we really were not worshipping him.

Since: Jan 12

United States

#20 Oct 22, 2012
i find it interesting that the jw pr reps can list hundreds of references to where jesus was worshipped, and then claim it was all a big mistake if you know enough greek.

here you have the word of god in the flesh, a perfect man with NO SIN, accepting worship hundredreds of times, and not reproving those giving it to him,...and the jw pr reps are claiming its all a big mistake.

see, the jw pr reps are just a bunch of tricky talkers.

they do the same thing with the holy spirit when it shows up talking and prophecying and giving instructions....... all of a sudden they claim its definately not god.

the jw gov body is a lying wicked bunch of false prophets with the fake coming of jesus...
thats why god lets an opperation of error exist among them.... they don't love the truth.... they love using tricky talk to prove they are correct and in charge.

its that simple.... they love the lie, instead of the truth.... the lie gets them what they want.

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