Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#25 Nov 15, 2012
-

More from post 23[1]:
Thirdwitness wrote:
He cannot even address one iota of the subject of this thread.


Why do you say this?

- You have misrepresented my view and then pretended to use that misrepresentation as a basis for attempted refutation. This strawman of your is addressed here: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

- You have misrepresented science, and that misrepresentation is addressed here: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Until you answer for these misrepresentations what need of further response is there from me? Your material does not do anything. That is, other than misrepresenting my view you contend against and science.

Astoundingly, you equivocate phagocytic ingestion and decomposition (termed “digest” in your source) with digestion of food when the two are dissimilar physiological activities occurring in completely different bodily systems.

What you’ve written is such a joke it’s almost beautiful, in a weird contemporary artistic kind of way.

So, do you have any substantive questions to ask that I’ve not already answered?

If so then please present them for answer.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 23: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Thirdwitness

Oklahoma City, OK

#26 Nov 15, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
From post 23[1]:
<quoted text>
Does this mean you have no substantive questions to ask that I’ve not already answered?
If not, then please present such questions for answer.
Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:
1. Post 23: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
I have questions that you have not and will not answer that I have asked repeatedly. You will find them on the first few posts of this thread. You also have the info on this thread to address with something other than sourceless Marvin Shilmer quotes.

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#27 Nov 15, 2012
-

From post 26[1]:
Thirdwitness wrote:
I have questions that you have not and will not answer that I have asked repeatedly. You will find them on the first few posts of this thread.
I don’t see any questions presented in your first few posts that I have not already answered. If you believe otherwise then feel free to itemize them.
Thirdwitness wrote:
You also have the info on this thread to address with something other than sourceless Marvin Shilmer quotes.


As you made assertions of YOUR sources, I too made assertions of YOUR sources.

The only difference between your assertions and mine is I address the science found in your sources and you do not.

So, what are these substantive questions you have that I’ve not already answered?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 26: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#28 Nov 15, 2012
Thirdwitness,

Would is surprise you to learn that, when asked, your cited sources disagree with your conclusion that IV glucose will need to be catabolized for energy and nutrition in a similar way that blood is catabolized.?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
Teleologist

Payson, AZ

#29 Nov 15, 2012
Thirdwitness wrote:
In reference to the Noachian Decree against using blood as food the apostles summed it up by simply stating, "abstain from blood". Abstaining from blood would obviously cover eating, drinking, or otherwise taking blood into the body.
The command from the apostles to "abstain from blood" does not tell us what blood to abstain from or what manner of abstention is required. The Noachian Decree tells us that the blood to abstain from is the blood of slaughtered animals and the abstention required is not eating this blood. The Apostolic Decree doesn't remotely address the transplantation of donor blood. Donor blood is not obtained from killing and transplantation is not eating.
Thirdwitness wrote:
How can a person possibly abstain from blood while at the same time taking blood into their body?
The same way JW's can take transfusions of autologous blood as part of a "current therapy" and be viewed by the WTS as having abstained from blood.
Teleologist

Payson, AZ

#30 Nov 15, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:

Astoundingly, you equivocate phagocytic ingestion and decomposition (termed “digest” in your source) with digestion of food when the two are dissimilar physiological activities occurring in completely different bodily systems.
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
Thirdwitness,
Would is surprise you to learn that, when asked, your cited sources disagree with your conclusion that IV glucose will need to be catabolized for energy and nutrition in a similar way that blood is catabolized.?
Marvin, I think this stuff may be going over the heads of most readers. A detailed explanation might be helpful.

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#31 Nov 15, 2012
-

From post 30[1]:
Teleologist wrote:
Marvin, I think this stuff may be going over the heads of most readers. A detailed explanation might be helpful.


1. The phagocytosis (digestion) carried out by leukocytes of erythrocytes takes energy from bodily tissue.

2. The take up of IV glucose solutions by tissue gives energy to bodily tissue.

3. Blood products like red cells are not simple compounds that can be absorbed and burned by human tissue without an offsetting consumption of energy.

4. IV glucose solutions are produced as simple compounds so they can be absorbed and burned by human tissue without an offsetting consumption of energy.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 30: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Thirdwitness

Duluth, GA

#32 Nov 15, 2012
As usual Marvin usually only himself as the source of his claims.

Marvin, until you actually quote reputable sources to prove your claims there is nothing for me to address. It is a waste of time to address you as a source since you are not a reputable source.

And as for questions, you pretend you have answered questions but you haven't and you know it.
Thirdwitness

Duluth, GA

#33 Nov 15, 2012
"Astoundingly, you equivocate phagocytic ingestion and decomposition (termed “digest” in your source) with digestion of food when the two are dissimilar physiological activities occurring in completely different bodily systems. "--Marvin.

Misrepresentation. I did not equivocate anymore than the source I quoted equivocated.

To think that God would have in mind and thus want Noah to somehow have in mind that a substance digested by the stomach is nutrition but a substance digested by other means or organs is not nutrition is absolutely ridiculous and is nothing but silly Marvus Bulshiddus that you stepped in and tried to wipe on us.
Teleologist

Payson, AZ

#34 Nov 15, 2012
Thirdwitness wrote:
To think that God would have in mind and thus want Noah to somehow have in mind that a substance digested by the stomach is nutrition but a substance digested by other means or organs is not nutrition is absolutely ridiculous...
Is it ridiculous for JW's that have autologous blood transfused into them as part of a "current therapy" to believe they have abstained from blood when according to you they have obtained nutrition from blood?
Thirdwitness

Duluth, GA

#35 Nov 15, 2012
Teleologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Is it ridiculous for JW's that have autologous blood transfused into them as part of a "current therapy" to believe they have abstained from blood when according to you they have obtained nutrition from blood?
Why do you ask the same old tired questions that have already been answered? You already know the answer.

And that is not the subject of this thread. Stop trying to save the butt of your hero with diversionary tactics!
Teleologist

Payson, AZ

#36 Nov 15, 2012
Thirdwitness wrote:

Why do you ask the same old tired questions that have already been answered? You already know the answer.
It took you over two years to come up with an answer and it is entirely bogus and not endorsed by the WTS.
Thirdwitness wrote:
And that is not the subject of this thread.
My reply is relevant to a particular claim you made in a particular post on this thread. As long as you keep making the claim that components of blood are used by the body as food, I am going to point out that if true that means JW's are guilty of eating blood when they have a transfusion of autologous blood as part of a "current therapy". But of course your claim is false.

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#37 Nov 15, 2012
-

From post 32[1]:
Thirdwitness wrote:
As usual Marvin usually only himself as the source of his claims.
.
Marvin, until you actually quote reputable sources to prove your claims there is nothing for me to address. It is a waste of time to address you as a source since you are not a reputable source.
And as for questions, you pretend you have answered questions but you haven't and you know it.
It’s not up to me to refute what you write.

It’s up to you to prove what you write.

The sources you quote on linchpin premises DO NOT SAY what you write.

All you’ve done is misrepresent WHAT I HAVE SAID, and then attempted to refute that.[2] That’s called refutation of a strawman. I need not quote any source to know if you have misrepresented my views!

On top of this you equivocate what your sources say regarding ‘digestion’ as though its speaking of eating food when it’s speaking of waste removal. Your sources DO NOT SAY that glucose will need to be catabolized for energy and nutrition IN A SIMILAR WAY that blood is catabolized.[3] You just MADE THAT UP and asserted it because that’s what you want your sources to be saying.

But, IF YOU want to go one pretending your sources say (read: MEAN) what YOU SAY they mean then that's just fine by me. As I've already said, it'll provide an education into the mind of how Watchtower has taught its followers how to think and reason.

Now you’ve said I’ve left questions unanswered that you have asked.

WHAT ARE THESE QUESTIONS?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 32: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

2. Post 10: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

3. Post 11: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#38 Nov 15, 2012
-

From post 33[1]:
Thirdwitness wrote:
To think that God would have in mind and thus want Noah to somehow have in mind that a substance digested by the stomach is nutrition but a substance digested by other means or organs is not nutrition is absolutely ridiculous and is nothing but silly Marvus Bulshiddus that you stepped in and tried to wipe on us.


Then stop dodging and weaving and answer the question:

- Was Noah prohibited from transplanting blood for medicinal remedy of disease and/or pain relief?

Well? WAS HE?

Why won’t you say?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 33: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#39 Nov 15, 2012
-

> Premise: Intravenous glucose is catabolyzed to be used by the body just like transfused blood.[1]

> Alternate premise: Glucose will need to be catabolyzed for energy and nutrition in a similar way that blood is catabolized.[1]

PROOF POSITIVE that transfused blood is not catabolized by the body like IV glucose:

- Patients transfused with red cells as parenteral nutrition either die or suffer severe morbidity as a result or the therapy.[2]

- Patients administered IV glucose solution as parenteral nutrition thrive as a result of the therapy.[3]

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References and end note:

1. Post 4: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

2. Allen et al, Similar Growth Rates of Litter Mate Puppies Maintained on Oral Protein with Those on the Same Quantity of Protein as Daily Intravenous Plasma for 99 Days as Only Protein Source,
Annals of Surgery, September 1956, pp. 349-354.

3. Dudrick, Early Developments and Clinical Applications of Total Parenteral Nutrition, Journal of Parenteral Nutrition, Vol. 27, No. 4, pp. 291-299.

4. For more on the subject of blood transfusion as a potential method of intravenous feeding of patients see the following articles:

-“Watchtower’s expert on blood transfusion…” available at: http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2012/10/wat...

-“Blood Doctrine Built on “Eating” Myth” available at: http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2012/10/blo...

___
Thirdwitness

United States

#40 Nov 15, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
From post 32[1]:
<quoted text>
It’s not up to me to refute what you write.
It’s up to you to prove what you write.
The irony of it all.

'The proof you offer is false because I say it's false.'--Ironic Marvin Shilme logic.
Thirdwitness

United States

#41 Nov 15, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
> Premise: Intravenous glucose is catabolyzed to be used by the body just like transfused blood.[1]
> Alternate premise: Glucose will need to be catabolyzed for energy and nutrition in a similar way that blood is catabolized.[1]
PROOF POSITIVE that transfused blood is not catabolized by the body like IV glucose:
- Patients transfused with red cells as parenteral nutrition either die or suffer severe morbidity as a result or the therapy.[2]
- Patients administered IV glucose solution as parenteral nutrition thrive as a result of the therapy.[3]
Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References and end note:
1. Post 4: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
2. Allen et al, Similar Growth Rates of Litter Mate Puppies Maintained on Oral Protein with Those on the Same Quantity of Protein as Daily Intravenous Plasma for 99 Days as Only Protein Source,
Annals of Surgery, September 1956, pp. 349-354.
3. Dudrick, Early Developments and Clinical Applications of Total Parenteral Nutrition, Journal of Parenteral Nutrition, Vol. 27, No. 4, pp. 291-299.
4. For more on the subject of blood transfusion as a potential method of intravenous feeding of patients see the following articles:
-“Watchtower’s expert on blood transfusion…” available at: http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2012/10/wat...
-“Blood Doctrine Built on “Eating” Myth” available at: http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2012/10/blo...
___
Do you really think people are so ignorant that they can't see that you offer no proof of your claim that glucose is not catabolized if it is administered intravenously?

All you offer proof of is that intravenous glucose will help a starving person so much more than intravenous blood. We all already knew that.

Now can you actually address the subject of this thread rather than wasting space on trying to show your superior intellect with information of no value to the subject of this thread which we already know and have not disputed?

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#42 Nov 16, 2012
-

From post 41[1]:
Thirdwitness wrote:
Do you really think people are so ignorant that they can't see that you offer no proof of your claim that glucose is not catabolized if it is administered intravenously?
.
All you offer proof of is that intravenous glucose will help a starving person so much more than intravenous blood. We all already knew that.
.
Now can you actually address the subject of this thread rather than wasting space on trying to show your superior intellect with information of no value to the subject of this thread which we already know and have not disputed?
Pardon me for pointing it out, but the premise you assert is that the body catabolizes IV glucose like it catabolizes blood.

Scientific trials have demonstrated your premise is false. Two (of the many!) sources documenting this are in Allen et al (1956) and Dudrick (2003).[2]

A primary difference in how IV glucose is catabolized by the body and how blood is catabolized by the body is that one (glucose) feeds energy to the body whereas the other (blood) takes energy from the body.

__________

Now, about these questions you say I’ve not answered. NAME THEM.

And, and back to the biblical theme:

- Was Noah prohibited from transplanting blood for medicinal remedy of disease and/or pain relief?

Well? Was he?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 41: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

2. Post 39: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

“thirdwitness.com”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#43 Nov 16, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
From post 41[1]:
<quoted text>
A primary difference in how IV glucose is catabolized by the body
A simple question for Marvin that he will no doubt have trouble answering honestly and straightforwardly.

Is glucose catabolized? Hint[1]

References
__________

1. "glucose...released into the blood to be transported to cells, where IT WILL BE CATABOLYZED."--Metabolism by Dr. Sharon A. Spring, B.S., D.C.

“thirdwitness.com”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#44 Nov 16, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
- Was Noah prohibited from transplanting blood for medicinal remedy of disease and/or pain relief?
I believe I have clearly answered that. Noah could not use blood as food or nourishment/fuel for the body. Blood transplanted intravenously is blood used as food and nourishment or fuel for the body.

However, if Noah felt like transplanting a bucket of blood from one place to another where he would pour it out, because he did not want blood on his doorstep and perhaps it would aid in relieving the stiffness or pain in his sore shoulder, I suppose he would have had to use his own judgement in that case.

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