Transfused Blood Will Provide Food--Science & Bible Confirms

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“thirdwitness.com”

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#1
Nov 14, 2012
 

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BLOOD SHOULD NOT SERVE AS FOOD

Genesis 9:3 "Every moving animal that is alive may SERVE AS FOOD for YOU....4 Only flesh with its soulóits bloodóYOU must not eat."

In other words: Blood is not to SERVE AS FOOD for Noah. Marvin does not like to use the word 'food' in connection with the 'abstain from blood' command for the simple reason that he wants to prejudice the readers against JWs in trying to show that Noah was only told not to 'eat' blood which is commonly done by mouth not veins. And he consequently invents a strawman for JWs in claiming that JWs have the silly belief that 'eating' blood is the same act as transfusing blood. JWs have long recognized the difference and have merely pointed out how eating blood is no different from transfusing blood in several ways which Marvin has agreed with.[1]

But the fact is that Jehovah God himself had no problem in using the word "food" in telling Noah that blood should not serve as food. Thus whether blood serves as food or not is relevant, whether it is literally 'eaten' by mouth or otherwise taken into the body.

“thirdwitness.com”

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#2
Nov 14, 2012
 

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DEFINITION OF FOOD

So we know that blood should not serve as food. That leads to the question, what is food? Well please notice the number one definition of food as found in the dictionary:

"Food: 1. any nourishing substance that is eaten, drunk, or otherwise taken into the body to sustain life, provide energy, promote growth, etc."--dictionary.com.

This brings us to the question that Marvin has repeatedly refused to answer honestly and straightforwardly:

If the number one definition of food as found in the dictionary is correct, then will blood properly administered intravenously by a competent doctor provide 'food' for the body receiving it? Or asked another way,
Either transfused blood meets the number one definition of food in the dictionary or it does not meet that definition. Which is it?

Marvin cannot and will not answer because he knows the correct and only true answer refutes his false claims. Thus he stubbornly refuses to answer in hopes that no one will notice his logical fallacy. And instead of answering these simple questions asked of him, Marvin will insist that we use HIS anti-JW definition of food and disregard all others, as if God had in mind Marvin's definition of food and Noah understood that God had in mind Marvin's meaning for food.

Marvin basically insist that a substance is not food unless that substance is eaten by mouth and digested by the stomach and into the intestines. If for example, blood enters the body and is then digested by macrophages and organs other than the stomach to gain nutrients before the waste from it enters into the intestines and digestive tract, Marvin claims that it is not nutrition for no reason other than his anti-JW agenda. Certainly he employs no science or logic to reach his conclusion. In fact, scientific facts disprove Marvin totally.[2]

“thirdwitness.com”

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Nov 14, 2012
 

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A PRIME EXAMPLE OF A NUTRIENT IN TRANSFUSED BLOOD

Iron is an essential nutrient for the human body.[3] Did you know that "Most of the iron in the body is recycled when old red blood cells are taken out of circulation and destroyed, with their iron scavenged by macrophages" [4] And that one single unit of transfused blood will provide 250mg of iron. "Each unit of blood has 250mg of iron."[4]

How many mg of iron does the body need each day? "About ten percent of the normal ten to twenty mg of dietary iron is absorbed each day, and this is sufficient to balance the one to two mg daily losses"[4] Of course ten percent of ten to twenty mg means that one to two mg of iron is needed each day.

Thus one single unit of transfused blood will supply what is needed in iron for approximately four to nine months.

Additionally, "There are about two gm of iron in the adult female, and up to six gm iron in the adult male. About one and a half to two gm of this total is found in red blood cells".[4] 250mg (iron in a unit of transfused blood) is therefore approximately twelve to seventeen percent of the iron found in the red blood cells. Each time a person receives a transfusion of one unit they are providing their body with twelve to seventeen percent of the nutrient iron needed for the total amount of needed red blood cells.

1. Would you say that infusing a substance into the body that will provide four to nine months of the needed nutrient iron, normally provided by eating thru the mouth, is providing nutritional support and nutrients or not?

2. Would you say that infusing a substance into the body that provides twelve to seventeen percent of the needed nutrient iron in the total amount of needed red blood cells, normally provided by eating thru the mouth, is providing nutritional support and nutrients or not?

Of course this brings us to another question that Marvin dare not answer. Either the iron in transfused blood cells will be used by the body as a nutrient or it will not. Which is it? Marvin of course will not answer because he knows all too well that the answer destroys his false claims.

“thirdwitness.com”

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#4
Nov 14, 2012
 

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INTRAVENOUS GLUCOSE VS INTRAVENOUS BLOOD

When glucose solutions are administered intravenously the glucose is neither eaten by mouth nor digested by the stomach. Marvin recognizes thru his studies that for a substance to provide nutrition it does not have to be eaten by mouth.

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
"Neither today nor in ancient times was eating [or feeding] understood so narrowly as though ďto take into the mouth and swallow for nourishment; chew and swallowĒ was the only means to eat or feed."--Marvin Shilmer.

It is also indisputable scientific fact that glucose will need to be catabolyzed for energy and nutrition in a similar way that blood is catabolyzed.[6] As shown below Marvin terms this catabolyzing of intravenous glucose as 'eating' and as 'food' even though the glucose is not literally eaten nor literally digested by the stomach.

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
"When glucose is administered intravenously as food, is it digested? As typically understood, no."--Marvin Shilmer.

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
"is a person who receives intravenous glucose, eating?
Yes...Is intravenously fed glucose food for the body? Yes..."--Marvin Shilmer.

Thus intravenous glucose is catabolyzed to be used by the body just like what? You got it, just like transfused blood will eventually be catabolyzed or broken down and used by the body for the nutrients within it, such as iron and amino acids, etc. Take note:

"MOST of the iron used for red blood cell hemoglobin production is obtained from hemoglobin breakdown of SENESCENT RBCs (called recycling). When red blood cells reach the end of their lifespan (senescent), they are phagocytized by macrophages (in the spleen, liver, bone marrow). Hydrolytic enzymes in macrophages degrade the ingested RBCs and release hemoglobin. Proteolytic digestion of hemoglobin liberates heme and globins. Globins are BROKEN DOWN TO AMINO ACIDS which can be used for protein production. The iron is released from heme...Once iron is released from the heme, it is utilized by the cell (iron is an essential component of many enzymes), exported (via ferroportin), or stored as ferritin."--Cornell University.

Now unless the body is able to say,'hey we're not using the nutrients in this here blood cause its been transfused rather than eaten by mouth and it has been digested by means other than the stomach', then transfused blood sure enough provides nutrition when broken down just like the intravenously fed glucose that must also be broken down/catabolyzed.

“thirdwitness.com”

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#5
Nov 14, 2012
 

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FOOD/OKLAH IN THE BIBLE

The Hebrew word used for food in the scriptures is oklah. According to Strong's Concordance it is defined as "food, eating, object of devouring, consuming".[5] By making a close examination of the word as used in the Bible, is it possible to determine that the oklah/food involves more than merely literally eating a nourishing substance by mouth? Lets see.

Ezekiel 15:4: "If it has been put in the fire for oklah/food".--KJV
Ezekiel 15:6: "ĎJust like the vine tree among the trees of the forest, that I have given to the fire as oklah/food"--NWT.


You will note that the word oklah/food in these cases does not involve literally eating and digesting by means of the mouth, stomach, and digestive tract. Obviously fire does not have a mouth, teeth, tongue, stomach, or a digestive tract. Oklah is used in this way in connection with food for the fire over and over again in the Bible. Oklah/Food is simply a substance consumed by whatever is consuming it for nourishment. Thus whether a person or in this case fire is consuming by mouth or by veins or otherwise, the substance is properly termed oklah if it provides nourishment or fuel. This is not my definition of oklah/food but rather this is what the Bible shows oklah/food to be.

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#6
Nov 14, 2012
 
Thirdwitness wrote:
BLOOD SHOULD NOT SERVE AS FOOD
Genesis 9:3 "Every moving animal that is alive may SERVE AS FOOD for YOU....4 Only flesh with its soulóits bloodóYOU must not eat."
In other words: Blood is not to SERVE AS FOOD for Noah. Marvin does not like to use the word 'food' in connection with the 'abstain from blood' command for the simple reason that he wants to prejudice the readers against JWs in trying to show that Noah was only told not to 'eat' blood which is commonly done by mouth not veins. And he consequently invents a strawman for JWs in claiming that JWs have the silly belief that 'eating' blood is the same act as transfusing blood. JWs have long recognized the difference and have merely pointed out how eating blood is no different from transfusing blood in several ways which Marvin has agreed with.[1]
But the fact is that Jehovah God himself had no problem in using the word "food" in telling Noah that blood should not serve as food. Thus whether blood serves as food or not is relevant, whether it is literally 'eaten' by mouth or otherwise taken into the body.
-

Thirdwitness,

- SHOW US that Noah was forbidden from nutritional transplantation of blood as a medicinal remedy to treat disease or relieve pain.

Then,

- SHOW US where Noah was forbidden from using DONOR blood however he saw fit.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com

“thirdwitness.com”

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Nov 14, 2012
 

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CONCLUSION

Whether blood is eaten, drunk, or otherwise taken into the body to sustain life, provide energy, promote growth, etc it is food.[7] There is no way one could ever imagine Noah saying,'Jehovah said not eat blood or to use blood as food but I am not going to EAT the blood by mouth. I'm just going to infuse it in my veins. And therefore I am not using it as food even though I know not what happens to the blood after it enters my body.' Nor could we ever imagine Jehovah thinking as he gave the command to Noah,'I'm going to tell Noah not to use blood as food and I'm sure man will eventually figure out that I mean that Marvin Shilmer has the right idea so that if blood is eaten by mouth and digested by the stomach that it is food, but if blood goes in thru the veins and is digested by other bodily functions and organs then it is not food.'

In reference to the Noachian Decree against using blood as food the apostles summed it up by simply stating, "abstain from blood". Abstaining from blood would obviously cover eating, drinking, or otherwise taking blood into the body. How can a person possibly abstain from blood while at the same time taking blood into their body?

Absolutely ridiculous thinking! Nonetheless, transfused blood does indeed provide nourishment and nutrition for the body receiving it. It is indeed food according to the dictionary, scientific facts, and God's Word the Bible.

“thirdwitness.com”

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Nov 14, 2012
 

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References
__________
1. http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Marvin Shilmer Equates Transfusing Blood with Eating Blood

2. http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathph...
"Dead, damaged and senescent red blood cells are picked up by phagocytic cells throughout the body (including Kuppfer cells in the liver) and DIGESTED. The iron is precious and is efficiently recycled. The globin chains are protein and are catabolized and their components reused."--R. A. Bowen DVM PhD, Department of Biomedical Sciences, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO, Laura Austgen DVM PhD, Melissa Rouge DVM.

3. "Iron: An Essential Nutrient"--Colorado State University Extension foods and nutrition specialist and professor, food science and human nutrition J. Anderson and C. Fitzgerald1 Reviewed 6/2010. http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/093...

4. The Internet Pathology Laboratory for Medical Education Hosted by the University of Utah Eccles Health Sciences Library http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/...

5. http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi...

6. "glucose...released into the blood to be transported to cells, where IT WILL BE CATABOLYZED."--Metabolism by Dr. Sharon A. Spring, B.S., D.C.

7. "Food: 1. any nourishing substance that is eaten, drunk, or otherwise taken into the body to sustain life, provide energy, promote growth, etc."--dictionary.com.

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Nov 14, 2012
 

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From post 2[1]:
Thirdwitness wrote:
Marvin basically insist that a substance is not food unless that substance is eaten by mouth and digested by the stomach and into the intestines.


Nope. That is your strawman.

A substance can be utilized as food by the body when administered intravenously if it is molecular size is sufficiently small and itís a material that can be readily absorbed and utilized as is by tissue. An example of such a solution is plasma proteins extracted from blood and transfused. On the other hand, red cells extracted from blood and transfused does not fit this profile.
Thirdwitness wrote:
Thus intravenous glucose is catabolyzed to be used by the body just like what?


The glucose administered in parenteral nutrition solutions is not catabolized by the body like transfused blood is. Glucose in parenteral nutrition solutions is taken up as it by tissue and used for its energy.

Transfused blood continues its function as organ tissue, and when its various constituents are ultimately catabolized it takes energy for the process. This process adds no new energy to the body as does intravenous administration of glucose parenteral nutrition solutions. This is one reason why transfusion of blood is no means of providing parenteral nutrition as are the various glucose solutions that have been developed.

Now, can you:

- SHOW US that Noah was forbidden from nutritional transplantation of blood as a medicinal remedy to treat disease or relieve pain.

Then,

- SHOW US where Noah was forbidden from using DONOR blood however he saw fit.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 2: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

2. Post 4: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

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#11
Nov 14, 2012
 
-

From post 4[1]:
Thirdwitness wrote:
It is also indisputable scientific fact that glucose will need to be catabolyzed for energy and nutrition in a similar way that blood is catabolyzed.[6]
Ö
6. "glucose...released into the blood to be transported to cells, where IT WILL BE CATABOLYZED."--Metabolism by Dr. Sharon A. Spring, B.S., D.C.


What a joke you are, Thirdwitness.

You donít know the difference between tissue uptake of small molecular structure compared to the much, much larger structure of blood constituents like red cells and WHY the latter CANNOT be taken up and used like the former.

Next time you use a source like this you should seek competent advice first.

Now, can you:

- SHOW US that Noah was forbidden from nutritional transplantation of blood as a medicinal remedy to treat disease or relieve pain.

Then,

- SHOW US where Noah was forbidden from using DONOR blood however he saw fit.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 4: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

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Nov 14, 2012
 

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Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
From post 2[1]:
<quoted text>
Nope. That is your strawman.
A substance can be utilized as food by the body when administered intravenously if it is molecular size is sufficiently small and itís a material that can be readily absorbed and utilized as is by tissue. An example of such a solution is plasma proteins extracted from blood and transfused. On the other hand, red cells extracted from blood and transfused does not fit this profile.
<quoted text>
The glucose administered in parenteral nutrition solutions is not catabolized by the body like transfused blood is. Glucose in parenteral nutrition solutions is taken up as it by tissue and used for its energy.
Transfused blood continues its function as organ tissue, and when its various constituents are ultimately catabolized it takes energy for the process. This process adds no new energy to the body as does intravenous administration of glucose parenteral nutrition solutions. This is one reason why transfusion of blood is no means of providing parenteral nutrition as are the various glucose solutions that have been developed.
Now, can you:
- SHOW US that Noah was forbidden from nutritional transplantation of blood as a medicinal remedy to treat disease or relieve pain.
Then,
- SHOW US where Noah was forbidden from using DONOR blood however he saw fit.
Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:
1. Post 2: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
2. Post 4: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
I see nothing here but Marvus Bulshiddus. No quotes from reputable sources. Only Marvin using himself as an authority.

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Nov 14, 2012
 

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From post 12[1]:
Thirdwitness wrote:
I see nothing here but Marvus Bulshiddus. No quotes from reputable sources. Only Marvin using himself as an authority.
You should start by reviewing the very sources you cite above; beginning with that it says about uptake and use of glucose by tissue. Itís right there in front of your eyes, if you know what the words are saying. Glucuse is not catabolized like transfused blood. Itís right there. Can you see it?

Maybe you need to seek competent advice.

Now, can you:

- SHOW US that Noah was forbidden from nutritional transplantation of blood as a medicinal remedy to treat disease or relieve pain.

Then,

- SHOW US where Noah was forbidden from using DONOR blood however he saw fit.

Well? Can you?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 12: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

“thirdwitness.com”

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#15
Nov 14, 2012
 
Marvin, when you decide to actually answer the questions ask of you in a competent, honest, and straightforward way please do so and perhaps there will be reason to make a reply.

Likewise, if you ever decide to actually address the points that I have presented with quotes from reputable sources to prove what you claim, then perhaps there will be reason to comment on what you have to say. Otherwise, you are wasting space using only yourself as a source for your claims.

“Close enough”

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#16
Nov 14, 2012
 
Thirdwitness wrote:
CONCLUSION
Whether blood is eaten, drunk, or otherwise taken into the body to sustain life, provide energy, promote growth, etc it is food.[7] There is no way one could ever imagine Noah saying,'Jehovah said not eat blood or to use blood as food but I am not going to EAT the blood by mouth. I'm just going to infuse it in my veins. And therefore I am not using it as food even though I know not what happens to the blood after it enters my body.' Nor could we ever imagine Jehovah thinking as he gave the command to Noah,'I'm going to tell Noah not to use blood as food and I'm sure man will eventually figure out that I mean that Marvin Shilmer has the right idea so that if blood is eaten by mouth and digested by the stomach that it is food, but if blood goes in thru the veins and is digested by other bodily functions and organs then it is not food.'
In reference to the Noachian Decree against using blood as food the apostles summed it up by simply stating, "abstain from blood". Abstaining from blood would obviously cover eating, drinking, or otherwise taking blood into the body. How can a person possibly abstain from blood while at the same time taking blood into their body?
Absolutely ridiculous thinking! Nonetheless, transfused blood does indeed provide nourishment and nutrition for the body receiving it. It is indeed food according to the dictionary, scientific facts, and God's Word the Bible.
Yes, when blood is used to sustain life, it is considered as nourishment or food.

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#17
Nov 15, 2012
 
-

From post 15[1]:
Thirdwitness wrote:
Marvin, when you decide to actually answer the questions ask of you in a competent, honest, and straightforward way please do so and perhaps there will be reason to make a reply.
.
Likewise, if you ever decide to actually address the points that I have presented with quotes from reputable sources to prove what you claim, then perhaps there will be reason to comment on what you have to say. Otherwise, you are wasting space using only yourself as a source for your claims.


According to Thirdwitness[2] what he writes in the opening posts of this discussion is his response to the following two questions:

- Can you show us that Noah was forbidden from nutritional transplantation of blood as a medicinal remedy to treat disease or relieve pain?

- Can you show us where Noah was forbidden from using DONOR blood however he saw fit?

I highly recommend that researchers take a long hard look at what Thirdwitness offers as answers to the above questions. Quite a bit is there to be learned of how the Watchtower organization has trained its followers to think.

Thanks Thirdwitness!

Now,

Other than Thirdwitness, are there any readers with questions?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 15: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

2. Post 104: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

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#19
Nov 15, 2012
 
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
Other than Thirdwitness, are there any readers with questions?
LOL. This speaks for itself. Thanks for confirming your fear of answering questions from Thirdwitness.

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#20
Nov 15, 2012
 
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
From post 15[1]:
<quoted text>
According to Thirdwitness[2] what he writes in the opening posts of this discussion is his response to the following two questions:
- Can you show us that Noah was forbidden from nutritional transplantation of blood as a medicinal remedy to treat disease or relieve pain?
-
This thread is in response to this claim by me found here:

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Thirdwitness wrote: "I will show you that Noah was forbidden to eat, drink, or otherwise take blood into his body."

To which Marvin replied: "Okay, show us that Noah was forbidden from taking blood into his body in a way other than eating it. Iíve seen you say this. But I have not seen you show this."

Well now you have and you seem to be speechless as a result, cowering in fear of simple questions.

My how the blood hero of opposers has lost his freeness of speech on the very subject he holds so dear!

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#22
Nov 15, 2012
 
-

From post 19[1]:
Thirdwitness wrote:
This speaks for itself. Thanks for confirming your fear of answering questions from Thirdwitness.
If you have a substantive question that Iíve not already answered please feel free to ask it. I am unaware of such a question asked by you, and for now Iíve tired of chasing you around trying to get you to engage discussion by answering questions yourself.

What you write above is your written response to two very specific questions, and your response speaks plenty loud for any researcher interested in the subject with at least cursory knowledge of human physiology. What you write needs no response from me, unless some casual readers has a question to ask.

But in your case, I see no reason to spend more time at the moment chasing you around trying to get answers, or re-answering the same questions Iíve already answered over and over again only for purpose of you obtaining whatever sound-bite youíre looking for.

Now, if you have a substantive question to ask that Iíve not already answered, please feel free.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 19: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Thirdwitness

Bixby, OK

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#23
Nov 15, 2012
 
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
From post 19[1]:
<quoted text>
If you have a substantive question that Iíve not already answered please feel free to ask it. I am unaware of such a question asked by you, and for now Iíve tired of chasing you around trying to get you to engage discussion by answering questions yourself.
What you write above is your written response to two very specific questions, and your response speaks plenty loud for any researcher interested in the subject with at least cursory knowledge of human physiology. What you write needs no response from me, unless some casual readers has a question to ask.
But in your case, I see no reason to spend more time at the moment chasing you around trying to get answers, or re-answering the same questions Iíve already answered over and over again only for purpose of you obtaining whatever sound-bite youíre looking for.
Now, if you have a substantive question to ask that Iíve not already answered, please feel free.
Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:
1. Post 19: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Pretend much? My how the blood hero of opposers everywhere has fallen. He cannot even address one iota of the subject of this thread. Freeness of speech gone for fear he will contradict previous statements.

It's over it's over it's over.

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#24
Nov 15, 2012
 
-

From post 23[1]:
Thirdwitness wrote:
Pretend much? My how the blood hero of opposers everywhere has fallen. He cannot even address one iota of the subject of this thread. Freeness of speech gone for fear he will contradict previous statements.
.
It's over it's over it's over.


Does this mean you have no substantive questions to ask that Iíve not already answered?

If not, then please present such questions for answer.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 23: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

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