Since: Oct 07

Haysville, KS

#65 Oct 29, 2008
Thirdwitness wrote:
Proven facts:
1. JWs again began to operate as a religion in Mexico in 1989.
2. Mexico law was not changed to allow religions to own property until 1992 and JWs could not own property until they registered and received approval under that new law which took place on May 7, 1993.
Accusations:
Opposers say previous to 1989, the WTS would not operate as a religion in Mexico because religions weren't allowed to own property but in 1989 that all changed and so JWs began to operate as a religion for that reason.
Simple question for Son of Fenger, Propmin, Dee, Jude, 1 of Mini, Don Cameron, Kenneson, and all those weighing in against JWs:
Are those opposers making false accusations against the WTS or not?
Who will dare answer?
Proven FACT:

No-one gives a crap.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#66 Oct 29, 2008
Thirdwitness wrote:
<quoted text>
A wise choice not to answer. You would expose yourself as ridiculously biased and dishonest. On second thought, you have shown that by refusing to answer.
Thank you, Thirdwitness, for recognizing my wisdom in front of the whole world.

Yet, all credit goes to my Master, Jesus for the training I receive from Him.

I do not answer you because I follow this Godly counsel:

"Do not answer anyone stupid according to his foolishness, that you yourself also may not become equal to him."
- Proverbs 26:4

I have no desire to be equal with you, O King of Spamalot. ;)

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#67 Oct 29, 2008
Susie B wrote:
<quoted text>
I hope so! I miss Luis...
I'm regret to inform you that I am not Luis.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#68 Oct 29, 2008
Papsy Papsy Wolfy wrote:
<quoted text>My sentiments are not with you but I do admire your sense of humor.I am imagining third witness in drag in a screechy monty python female voice and gareth and diogenes flailing flasks of ale around.Very funny post.But where is the expose part of it ?
Thank you.

Great, but shocking, mental image you conjured up. ;)

And don't forget their Viking helmets.

The expose part?

It's there.

My adaptation of Monty Python's sketch is simply a commentary on the barage after barage, and wave after wave of the same Watchtower Religion apologetic rhetoric that spews from the keyboards of -3W, Garth, and Di; ad nauseam.

Spam is spam; whether served up on every item in a fictional restaurant or almost every thread (so it seems) on this board.

Nothing more.

Question for you.

Why are you so sure your sentiments are not with me?

Just curious.
Claude Kenneson

Tallahassee, FL

#69 Oct 29, 2008
Thirdwitness wrote:
Proven facts:
1. JWs again began to operate as a religion in Mexico in 1989.
2. Mexico law was not changed to allow religions to own property until 1992 and JWs could not own property until they registered and received approval under that new law which took place on May 7, 1993.
Accusations:
Opposers say previous to 1989, the WTS would not operate as a religion in Mexico because religions weren't allowed to own property but in 1989 that all changed and so JWs began to operate as a religion for that reason.
Simple question for Son of Fenger, Propmin, Dee, Jude, 1 of Mini, Don Cameron, Kenneson, and all those weighing in against JWs:
Are those opposers making false accusations against the WTS or not?
Who will dare answer?
Facts are that if JWs were recognized as a religion in 1930, they rescinded that recognition in 1943 in order to become a cultural and civil society for 50 years. They began operating as a religious society again in 1989, although they were not granted recognition (AGAIN) as a religious society until 1993.

I find it interesting that the International Bible Students Association was authorized by the government in 1930 but not given legal recognition. When the name change of the group came in 1931 as JWs, in Mexico they changed the International Bible Students Association's name to the Watchtower in 1932. Did the government consider them more of a Bible Society than a religion? Were they able to meet in their own facilities, pray and sing openly during those years? Were they able to go from house to house with the Bible? Did they use the name of Jehovah and Jesus? Did they call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses? How could they remain illegal and undetected for 13 years? Why did this not bother the Watchtower Society until 1943? Why the urgent need to become a civil and cultural society in 1943 and do away with anything that sounded religious? And not even to pray openly out loud, but silently. Does that sound anything like Daniel in Dan. 6:6-28?

In 1988 the Watchtower was willing to operate as a religion even if it meant the government owned their property. Does that mean that during those 50 years the government did not own their property? So, why the need now to become a religion? Could it be that they detected a change in the wind, which did come in 1992 when the Constitution was amended and religions could again own land and property. And so, in 1993 they registerd as religious associations La Torre del Vigia, A.R.(Watchtower) and Los Testigos de Jehova en Mexico, A.R.(Jehovah's Witnesses in Mexico).
Susie B

West Richland, WA

#70 Oct 30, 2008
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
Facts are that if JWs were recognized as a religion in 1930, they rescinded that recognition in 1943 in order to become a cultural and civil society for 50 years. They began operating as a religious society again in 1989, although they were not granted recognition (AGAIN) as a religious society until 1993.
I find it interesting that the International Bible Students Association was authorized by the government in 1930 but not given legal recognition. When the name change of the group came in 1931 as JWs, in Mexico they changed the International Bible Students Association's name to the Watchtower in 1932. Did the government consider them more of a Bible Society than a religion? Were they able to meet in their own facilities, pray and sing openly during those years? Were they able to go from house to house with the Bible? Did they use the name of Jehovah and Jesus? Did they call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses? How could they remain illegal and undetected for 13 years? Why did this not bother the Watchtower Society until 1943? Why the urgent need to become a civil and cultural society in 1943 and do away with anything that sounded religious? And not even to pray openly out loud, but silently. Does that sound anything like Daniel in Dan. 6:6-28?
In 1988 the Watchtower was willing to operate as a religion even if it meant the government owned their property. Does that mean that during those 50 years the government did not own their property? So, why the need now to become a religion? Could it be that they detected a change in the wind, which did come in 1992 when the Constitution was amended and religions could again own land and property. And so, in 1993 they registerd as religious associations La Torre del Vigia, A.R.(Watchtower) and Los Testigos de Jehova en Mexico, A.R.(Jehovah's Witnesses in Mexico).
Hmmm...interesting!
Reminds me of how they went about getting the library card for use in the United Nations Facilities. Check out the dates....1991, 1992.
It appears the WTBTS is using the governmental agencies as their means of information for magazine articles and spiritual food which they say they get from the Holy Spirit.
Could it be they are still trying to predict happenings around the globe?
Maybe armageddon?
Claude Kenneson

Tallahassee, FL

#71 Oct 30, 2008
Susie B wrote:
<quoted text>
Hmmm...interesting!
Reminds me of how they went about getting the library card for use in the United Nations Facilities. Check out the dates....1991, 1992.
It appears the WTBTS is using the governmental agencies as their means of information for magazine articles and spiritual food which they say they get from the Holy Spirit.
Could it be they are still trying to predict happenings around the globe?
Maybe armageddon?
What is even more interesting is that they did not present themselves as a civil and cultural society in 1930 to begin with. The reason I say this is because this is the time period when the Bible Students considered themselves anti-religion. Remember their famous slogan: "Religion is a snare and a racket"? Maybe they hadn't thought about it yet, but wasn't that a bit deceptive?

“thirdwitness.com”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#72 Oct 30, 2008
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
Facts are that if JWs were recognized as a religion in 1930, they rescinded that recognition in 1943 in order to become a cultural and civil society for 50 years. They began operating as a religious society again in 1989, although they were not granted recognition (AGAIN) as a religious society until 1993.
I find it interesting that the International Bible Students Association was authorized by the government in 1930 but not given legal recognition. When the name change of the group came in 1931 as JWs, in Mexico they changed the International Bible Students Association's name to the Watchtower in 1932. Did the government consider them more of a Bible Society than a religion? Were they able to meet in their own facilities, pray and sing openly during those years? Were they able to go from house to house with the Bible? Did they use the name of Jehovah and Jesus? Did they call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses? How could they remain illegal and undetected for 13 years? Why did this not bother the Watchtower Society until 1943? Why the urgent need to become a civil and cultural society in 1943 and do away with anything that sounded religious? And not even to pray openly out loud, but silently. Does that sound anything like Daniel in Dan. 6:6-28?
In 1988 the Watchtower was willing to operate as a religion even if it meant the government owned their property. Does that mean that during those 50 years the government did not own their property? So, why the need now to become a religion? Could it be that they detected a change in the wind, which did come in 1992 when the Constitution was amended and religions could again own land and property. And so, in 1993 they registerd as religious associations La Torre del Vigia, A.R.(Watchtower) and Los Testigos de Jehova en Mexico, A.R.(Jehovah's Witnesses in Mexico).
I see that you do not have the forthrightness to admit that false claims have been made against JWs on this topic. Since you know that opposers claims have been proven BY THE FACTUAL EVIDENCE to be false you have to take another route. And what is that? You resort to a lot of unproven speculation.

Unproven speculation on your part:

1. "they rescinded that recognition in 1943 in order to become a cultural and civil society"

Can you prove that they rescinded their recognition as a religion at that time? And if so, what does that prove?

2. "Did the government consider them more of a Bible Society than a religion?"

Can you answer that with factual evidence? Even so, I fail to see what difference that makes.

3. "why the need now to become a religion? Could it be that they detected a change in the wind, which did come in 1992 when the Constitution was amended and religions could again own land and property."

As if the WTS could know that new laws were coming that would definitely allow them to own property as a religion. Pure speculation based on nothing but refusal to admit that false claims have been made by opposers.

“thirdwitness.com”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#73 Oct 30, 2008
But at least Kenneson has done what no one else has done. He actually attempted to offer a rebuttal although refusing to admit false accusations were made by opposers.

“thirdwitness.com”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#74 Oct 30, 2008
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
How could they remain illegal and undetected for 13 years? Why did this not bother the Watchtower Society until 1943? Why the urgent need to become a civil and cultural society in 1943 and do away with anything that sounded religious?
Here is what you are failing to consider. You are thinking there were thousands upon thousands of JWs in Mexico from 1930 to 1943. But here are the true statistics.

1931--82 publishers

1941--859 publishers

It was quite easy to go undetected for those 13 years having a average of about 500 publishers for those 13 years. Those few publishers were operating illegally in Mexico but who cared since their numbers were so small. They would hardly be noticed.

The WTS foresaw that as the number of JWs increased in Mexico there could be legal trouble since they were operating illegally. Once they caught the attention of the government, due to their increasing numbers and door to door preaching, they could be banned. So the WTS saw a way to legally alleviate any risk of being banned and yet still be able to follow Jesus' instructions to preach the good news. So for the protection of the brothers and for the furtherance of the preaching work they registered as a cultural society.

It proved to be a brilliant move as the increase in Mexico was incredible with little interference from the government.
Snorkler

Congo, The Democratic Republic of the

#75 Oct 30, 2008
1 OF MINI wrote:
<quoted text>
Self-fulfilling? Absolutely!
You, Di and 3rd fulfill it daily.
Spam, spam, wonderful spam. ;)
one mans spam is another mans jam.
Snorkler

Congo, The Democratic Republic of the

#76 Oct 30, 2008
PropMin wrote:
<quoted text>
And you are repeating your usual 3w jock-sniffing groupie behavior.
Stand up and be a man; IF YOU BELIEVE IT, GO GET BAPTISED.
What a pretender.
The truth hurts hey ?
Rodrigues Antonio Smith

Bournemouth, UK

#77 Oct 30, 2008
PropMin wrote:
<quoted text>
Proven FACT:
No-one gives a crap.
Right on the mustard! Propmin admits that they don't care about the FACTS.

Hole!
Claude Kenneson

Tallahassee, FL

#78 Oct 30, 2008
Thirdwitness wrote:
<quoted text>
I see that you do not have the forthrightness to admit that false claims have been made against JWs on this topic. Since you know that opposers claims have been proven BY THE FACTUAL EVIDENCE to be false you have to take another route. And what is that? You resort to a lot of unproven speculation.
Unproven speculation on your part:
1. "they rescinded that recognition in 1943 in order to become a cultural and civil society"
Can you prove that they rescinded their recognition as a religion at that time? And if so, what does that prove?
2. "Did the government consider them more of a Bible Society than a religion?"
Can you answer that with factual evidence? Even so, I fail to see what difference that makes.
3. "why the need now to become a religion? Could it be that they detected a change in the wind, which did come in 1992 when the Constitution was amended and religions could again own land and property."
As if the WTS could know that new laws were coming that would definitely allow them to own property as a religion. Pure speculation based on nothing but refusal to admit that false claims have been made by opposers.
No. 1. I came to that conclusion by reading something from a link that appears to me to be by Jehovah's Witnesses.

http:www.needgreaters.com/Mexi coCultural History.htm

Scroll down to "History of Mexico: Secular and Theocratic." Look at 1943 where it shows that the Watchtower registered as a civil society, cultural and NOT RELIGIOUS.

Now, my next question is, was the Watchtower Society able to own its own properties, if they operated educational programs, rather than religious ones? We know that a religious organization could not own property until 1993. If it was a question of properties, that would certainly make sense to me.

2. Bible Societies publish and distribute Bibles, but they are normally considered a religion.

3. Not as speculative as you imagine either. I came to that conclusion by reading excerpts from the Yearbook that you posted on post #5.
"...when Carlos Salinas de Gortori began his term of office as president of the Republic in December 1988, one COULD FORESEE that there would be a CHANGE In POLICY REGARDING RELIGION..."

Also, it says that in 1988 that Jehovah's Witnesses met with government representatives to iron out their differences. Who were these representatives and was Salinas among them?
Claude Kenneson

Tallahassee, FL

#79 Oct 30, 2008
Claude Kenneson

Tallahassee, FL

#80 Oct 30, 2008
I wish their was an editing button on here. Let me try one more time.

http://www.needgreaters.com/MexicoCultureHist...

Since: Oct 07

Haysville, KS

#81 Oct 30, 2008
Rodrigues Antonio Smith wrote:
<quoted text>
Right on the mustard! Propmin admits that they don't care about the FACTS.
Hole!
What I dont care about, polo-boy, is the entire "when were jws recognised in Mexico".

Who gives a dead rats ass?
Susie B

West Richland, WA

#82 Oct 30, 2008
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
What is even more interesting is that they did not present themselves as a civil and cultural society in 1930 to begin with. The reason I say this is because this is the time period when the Bible Students considered themselves anti-religion. Remember their famous slogan: "Religion is a snare and a racket"? Maybe they hadn't thought about it yet, but wasn't that a bit deceptive?
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
What is even more interesting is that they did not present themselves as a civil and cultural society in 1930 to begin with. The reason I say this is because this is the time period when the Bible Students considered themselves anti-religion. Remember their famous slogan: "Religion is a snare and a racket"? Maybe they hadn't thought about it yet, but wasn't that a bit deceptive?
When they found out what a great fortune can be amassed at the fleecing of the flock everything changed.
Now they are the ONLY religion who will survive the great tribulation according to Gareth.
Rutherford was the biggest hypocrit.
He talked and taught that only the JW's would survive armageddon because they were the only people on earth who had 'faith' and 'works' which is another big lie.
Now they switch back and forth (depending on where they are located) to calling themselves whatever they choose, to fit the world system and what the world will accept.
They are changelings...Governmental puppets although they would never agree to that.
UNGODLY!
Claude Kenneson

Tallahassee, FL

#83 Oct 30, 2008
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
No. 1. I came to that conclusion by reading something from a link that appears to me to be by Jehovah's Witnesses.
http:www.needgreaters.com/Mexi coCultural History.htm
Scroll down to "History of Mexico: Secular and Theocratic." Look at 1943 where it shows that the Watchtower registered as a civil society, cultural and NOT RELIGIOUS.
Now, my next question is, was the Watchtower Society able to own its own properties, if they operated educational programs, rather than religious ones? We know that a religious organization could not own property until 1993. If it was a question of properties, that would certainly make sense to me.
2. Bible Societies publish and distribute Bibles, but they are normally considered a religion.
3. Not as speculative as you imagine either. I came to that conclusion by reading excerpts from the Yearbook that you posted on post #5.
"...when Carlos Salinas de Gortori began his term of office as president of the Republic in December 1988, one COULD FORESEE that there would be a CHANGE In POLICY REGARDING RELIGION..."
Also, it says that in 1988 that Jehovah's Witnesses met with government representatives to iron out their differences. Who were these representatives and was Salinas among them?
No. 2. I forgot the NOT. It should read: Bible Societies publish and distribute Bibles, but they are NOT normally considered a religion.

“thirdwitness.com”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#84 Oct 30, 2008
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
No. 1. I came to that conclusion by reading something from a link that appears to me to be by Jehovah's Witnesses.
http:www.needgreaters.com/Mexi coCultural History.htm
Scroll down to "History of Mexico: Secular and Theocratic." Look at 1943 where it shows that the Watchtower registered as a civil society, cultural and NOT RELIGIOUS.
Well they definitely did register as a civil society in 1943 not religious association. I fail to see the point. And you still are guessing at something you have no proof of.
Claude Kenneson wrote:
Now, my next question is, was the Watchtower Society able to own its own properties, if they operated educational programs, rather than religious ones? We know that a religious organization could not own property until 1993. If it was a question of properties, that would certainly make sense to me.
There were a number of things a cultural organization could do that a religious one could not do in Mexico. They could own property, go door to door teaching people, hold large assemblies in public places.
Claude Kenneson wrote:
2. Bible Societies publish and distribute Bibles, but they are normally considered a religion.
I again fail to see the point.
Claude Kenneson wrote:
3. Not as speculative as you imagine either. I came to that conclusion by reading excerpts from the Yearbook that you posted on post #5.
"...when Carlos Salinas de Gortori began his term of office as president of the Republic in December 1988, one COULD FORESEE that there would be a CHANGE In POLICY REGARDING RELIGION..."
Also, it says that in 1988 that Jehovah's Witnesses met with government representatives to iron out their differences. Who were these representatives and was Salinas among them?
Of course they could see that if Carlos Salinas de Gortori stayed in office things were apparently going to change for religious organizations in Mexico. But of course there could be no guarantee that he would not change his mind or that he would not die. So why would the WTS jump the gun and take the chance? Why not just wait until the new laws came out and then register as a religion? Why risk losing the properties already owned by operating as a religion in 1989? It is because there were other concerns, not just property ownership.

The facts show that opposers like Cameron, Franz, Penton, Docbob made false accusations against the WTS.

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