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Anonymous

United States

#1 Apr 26, 2010
What About Daniel 12:9,10?

Although not listed in the Guinness World Book of Records, it may be safe to say that the Watchtower Society has changed their teachings more often than any other religion in the history of mankind.“Captives of a Concept” only mentions 48 of them.

STRS freely acknowledges that the Society has taught many things in the past needed to be corrected. He feels that the more this has happened the more it proves that the Society is God’s organization. How is this possible?

The answer is found in the way he has chosen to interpret Daniel 12:10 where it says:“(In the time of the end) many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined."

STRS believes that since Daniel foretold that during the time of the end God’s people would need to be cleansed and refined of their teachings that were not true, that therefore every time the Society has had to change one of their teachings it fulfills Daniel’s prophecy proving to him that the Society is God’s people

STRS said:“Cameron ignores and even throws out the prophecy of the refinement in his assumptions. Malachi 3 and Daniel 12, among other scriptures, literally refute his argument. Why didn’t he address this Bible Prophecy?”

STRS has a perfect right to his interpretation of Daniel’s prophecy. I just don’t happen to agree with it. I see it as one of the Society’s interpretations mentioned by James Penton when he said,“Watch Tower interpretations over the years have often become so bizarre that almost any portion of Scripture can be used to explain almost anything that Witness writers want it to.”

It may be that STRS has lived with the Society’s “bizarre interpretation” for so long that he no longer sees it as an interpretation. He may see it is AS IF Daniel had said,“In the time of the end the Watchtower Society will cleanse itself by correcting its teachings that were not true and they will be refined.”

Since I no longer believe that the Society is Jehovah’s organization I have no reason to believe that their interpretation is what Daniel had mind.

Don Cameron
CaptivesOfaConcept.com
StandFirm

Milwaukee, WI

#2 Apr 27, 2010
Why don't you tell us YOUR interpretation so we can expose IT to public criticism?

Otherwise, ours must be right in lieu of an alternative.
little lamb

Australia

#3 Apr 27, 2010
"Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined . And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly and no wicked one will understand , but the ones having insight will understand."
So that sounds very much like personal responsibility ....."Whiten themselves' nobody else whitens them
And will be refined, suffering refines one.
Because Jesus it is that sits as the refiner Malachi 3 [2]
..........For he will be like the fire of a refiner ....
[3] And he must sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver .......
This is the baptism of fire that john the baptist told us Jesus will baptize us in as well as spirit.
And this is what many of us have been baptized in as we have gone through the shunning and persecution the organization have put on those who preach the new covenant. no other religious organization in the western world has been so vigorous in persecuting the preachers of the new covenant then this organization, blackening their name and making them seem like they are the evil ones. but Jesus has allowed it, because it refines us. And we come out of it with more understanding of Gods arrangement of the new covenant, and are able to preach it more effectively.
Anonymous

United States

#4 Apr 27, 2010
Hello StandFirm,

You asked for my interpretation of Daniel 12:10. I don't have one.

But just because I don't know what Daniel had in mind does that prove that the Society does know?

It seems to me that in order for the Society to correctly understand Daniel’s prophecy they would have to have received their interpretation from Jehovah. But since I no longer believe that the Society is Jehovah’s organization I have no reason to think that he has ever exclusively revealed anything to them.

We know that he didn’t reveal anything to them about the 48 pre-1919 teachings mentioned in “Captives of a Concept.” Just like we know that he didn’t reveal anything to them about their more recent former teaching about “the Creator’s promise of a peaceful new world before the generation of 1914 passes away.”– See masthead page of the Awake! Magazine until November of 1995.

STRS (SettingTheRecordStraight) uses the Society’s interpretation of Daniel 12:10 every time someone mentions one of the teachings that the Society has had to change – such as the date of Jesus’ invisible presence that was changed from 1874 to 1914. He feels that every time the Society has had to change (“cleanse” or “refine”) one of their teachings it fulfills Daniel’s prophecy and therefore proves to him that the Society really is God’s people.

He feels that the more false teachings that the Society has had that needed to be corrected the more they prove that the Society is God’s people.

I am no longer able to think that way. Now it seems reasonable that the more false teachings a religion has had that needed to be corrected the more they prove that it isn’t God’s people.

Don Cameron
CaptivesOfaConcept.com
StandFirm

Milwaukee, WI

#5 Apr 27, 2010
CaptivesOfaConcept wrote:
Hello StandFirm,
You asked for my interpretation of Daniel 12:10. I don't have one.
But just because I don't know what Daniel had in mind does that prove that the Society does know?
WHAT?
Since the plaintiff hasn't shown up, we are automatically innocent. You have no alternative, thus ours is correct until you set one forth.
It seems to me that in order for the Society to correctly understand Daniel’s prophecy they would have to have received their interpretation from Jehovah. But since I no longer believe that the Society is Jehovah’s organization I have no reason to think that he has ever exclusively revealed anything to them.
That is the worst (or best?) circular reasoning I have ever seen.
'The Society needs to be led by Jehovah to have a correct interpretation. But their interpretation is wrong because they are not led by Jehovah.'
We know that he didn’t reveal anything to them about the 48 pre-1919 teachings mentioned in “Captives of a Concept.” Just like we know that he didn’t reveal anything to them about their more recent former teaching about “the Creator’s promise of a peaceful new world before the generation of 1914 passes away.”– See masthead page of the Awake! Magazine until November of 1995.
Correct.
STRS (SettingTheRecordStraight) uses the Society’s interpretation of Daniel 12:10 every time someone mentions one of the teachings that the Society has had to change – such as the date of Jesus’ invisible presence that was changed from 1874 to 1914. He feels that every time the Society has had to change (“cleanse” or “refine”) one of their teachings it fulfills Daniel’s prophecy and therefore proves to him that the Society really is God’s people.
He feels that the more false teachings that the Society has had that needed to be corrected the more they prove that the Society is God’s people.
There's no point in defending our interpretation when there is nothing to defend it against.
I am no longer able to think that way. Now it seems reasonable that the more false teachings a religion has had that needed to be corrected the more they prove that it isn’t God’s people.
Don Cameron
CaptivesOfaConcept.com
Oh my goodness.
It's the more false teachings a religion CURRENTLY HAS that determines if they're God's people!
Who has more truth and less false teachings now than Jehovah's Witnesses? NOBODY!

Wow. I honestly thought refuting you would be a lot harder than this.
little lamb

Australia

#6 Apr 28, 2010
CaptivesOfaConcept wrote:
Hello StandFirm,


STRS (SettingTheRecordStraight) uses the Society’s interpretation of Daniel 12:10 every time someone mentions one of the teachings that the Society has had to change – such as the date of Jesus’ invisible presence that was changed from 1874 to 1914. He feels that every time the Society has had to change (“cleanse” or “refine”) one of their teachings it fulfills Daniel’s prophecy and therefore proves to him that the Society really is God’s people.
He feels that the more false teachings that the Society has had that needed to be corrected the more they prove that the Society is God’s people.

Don Cameron
CaptivesOfaConcept.com
So if I understand this correctly the society uses the fact Daniel talks about being refined, as an excuse for their lies.
That's serious but quite funny.

Refining hasn't anything to do with readjusting lies.

Proverbs 17 [3] The refining pot is for silver , and the furnace for gold , but Jehovah is the examiner of hearts."
Being refined is having the scummy doss removed from the precious gold of Faith.
Isaiah 48 [10] Look I have refined you , but not in the form of silver , I have made choice of you in the smelting furnace of affliction."
God refines us by letting us go through fiery trials, to REFINE us, it has nothing whatsoever of righting a falsehood.
I never examined it before, but now its not standing up to investigation.
its to do with refining our hearts in the Faith.
1 Corinthians 3 [13] each ones work will be shown up for the day will show it up because it is revealed by FIRE and the FIRE will prove what sort of work each one's is."
brother winston

London, KY

#7 Apr 28, 2010
"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." Revelation 19:7.

"That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Ephesians 5:27.
Anonymous

United States

#8 Apr 28, 2010
StandFirm,

Here is an example that doesn't fit the Society’s interpretation of Daniel's prophecy...

Russell correctly understood that the "superior authorities" in Romans 13:1 are the earthly governments. That teaching was true. It didn't need any cleansing or refining.

But in 1929 Rutherford changed those “authorities” to Jehovah and Christ Jesus. All of the sudden that teaching became unclean in need of cleansing and refining. But it remained it remained unclean the next 33 years until 1962 when that teaching went back to Russell taught.

Again, this seems to be one case that isn’t covered by the Society’s interpretation of Daniel 12:10 (or Proverbs 4:18).

Don
Anonymous

United States

#9 Apr 28, 2010
StandFirm,

You asked,“Who HAS (present tense) more truth and less false teachings NOW than Jehovah's Witnesses?”

But since the Society’s interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47 is that their appointment over all of Christ’s belongings is based on what they HAD (past tense) been teaching down till 1919 then I would rephrase your question this way:

“Down till 1919 who HAD more truth and less false teachings THEN than Jehovah’s Witnesses?”

I don’t know exactly how many false teachings the Society had from 1876 to 1919 but according to what they teach today there were an awful lot of them. The book “Captives of a Concept” only mentions 48 of them. On page 40 it says this:

“The forty-eight teachings considered in this study made up only a small portion of what Russell and Rutherford had mistakenly thought was “proper and timely spiritual food” from 1876 to 1919. All of their statements, arguments, applications,
reasonings, interpretations, explanations, illustrations and chronologies that were used to support those teachings were also improper and untimely.

“For example, in Russell’s Thy Kingdom Come (1891) he reasoned for sixty-seven pages that the Great Pyramid of Gizeh was “God’s stone witness and prophet.” Although that was just one false teaching, every sentence in those pages that supported it was also false.

“Every other chapter in just this one 380-page book is full of statements that the Society now says are not true.

“For another example, Chapter 2 (“Study II”) uses thirty-six pages to prove that the ‘Time of the End’(‘the last days’) began in 1799 and would end one hundred fifteen years later in 1914. But sometime after 1919 they changed that teaching and now say that the ‘last days’ began in 1914 and will end sometime in the near future. Therefore, every sentence in that chapter that Russell used to support what he believed was also wrong spiritual food at the wrong time.

”Russell and Rutherford provided so much wrong spiritual food so often for so long (both in print and public lectures) that it’s not possible to put a number on all of it. But to get an idea of just how high that number was, consider that one teaching about the 1,200 furlongs of Revelation 14:20 referring to the distance between Scranton, Pa. and Brooklyn, NY. Rutherford didn’t ‘serve’ that portion of spiritual food just one time in one public lecture. He served 850,000 times in 850,000 copies of ‘The Finished Mystery’.

“And all the wrong food in Russell’s ‘The Time Is At Hand’ was served 4,000,000 times in 4,000,000 copies of that book. How high would the number be when all of the Society’s wrong spiritual food from 1876 to 1919 was added up?”

StandFirm, you seem to be basing your confidence in the Society on what they are currently teaching. I did that too until I read pages 349-355 of ‘God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached.” Former President Frederick Franz carefully explained that whether or not the Society has been appointed over all Christ’s belongings depends upon what they had been teaching “down till 1919.”– Matthew 24:47

Once I realized what they had been teaching throughout those years I concluded the same thing that Raymond Franz concluded when he said:

“It would be an insult to Christ Jesus to say that he selected this organization on the basis of what it was teaching as of 1919.”

Don
e-watchman

Mount Morris, MI

#10 Apr 28, 2010
The time of the end is the same thing as the conclusion of the system of things. The Greek LXX uses the very same word at Daniel 12:10 that Jesus used in the 13th chapter of Matthew when he said that "the harvest is a conclusion of a system of things." The Greek word translated is syntelia. It means an ending period. Not necessarily a long period of time, but a period of time nonetheless. Daniel chapters 7, 8 and 12 reveal the syntelia to be 3 and one half years long. During that time Jesus said the angels will gather out from his kingdom all persons doing lawlessness and all things that cause stumbling. Obviously, that has not occurred yet. That being the case, the time of the end is a future event, most likely in the guise of World War Three.

For a thorough re-examination of the Watchtower's 1914 doctrine go to http://jehovah-has-become-king.com

“thirdwitness.com”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#11 Apr 28, 2010
We have already done this gig.

Cameron Again Shows misconceptions
Aug7-19 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Cameron's Dishonesty About the World Magazine Quote
Aug 11-18 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Cameron's Dishonesty About the 1984 WT
Aug11-27,2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

More Dishonesty by Don Cameron
Aug12-17 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Cameron's dishonesty about fds appointment
Aug 13-17 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Cameron's dishonesty about fds appointment
Aug 13-17 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Cameron's dishonesty--other religions like JWs
Aug 14-20 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...


Cameron's Strawman Army Attacks
Aug 15-Sep 11 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Which Teachings did Jesus examine?
Aug 18-20 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

The Society's 4 years inside Satan's organization
Aug 23-30 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

“thirdwitness.com”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#12 Apr 28, 2010
Topsy, a spirit directed uninspired true prophet
Aug 24-31 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Spirit inspired vs spirit directed--the debate is over
Aug 30-sep 6 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Why did the Society create their own prophet
Sep 1 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

The worst religion in the history of mankind
Sep 2 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Who can address the refining prophecies without rhetoric
Sep 4-13 2008 don cameron comes on page 3 then disapears and returns page 13
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

TW makes refining and cleansing an art form
sept 6 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Cameron Answers TW
Sep 14-25 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

What the Bible Says vs what the Bible means
Sep 18, 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Why Malawi was not the GBs fault
Oct 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

August 30, 1914 the world magazine
Apr 8-30 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Topsy Crett

Houston, TX

#13 Apr 28, 2010
Hey DC, how ya doing? Did you move from Buffalo to WV? I understand, must have been the Bills huh? At least WS has a decent football and BB team in College huh?

I think your argument would have more weight if you provided an alternative interpretation to that scripture.

Now, I understand there is a certain freedom in NOT KNOWING, rather than having to know everything, but in lieu of your reasoning that YOU BELIEVE they dont have GOD's backing anymore, and that is your main reason for not following thier reaosning on this, then YOU should offer up an alternative explanation.

Othewise, from a JW standpoint, you seem like a critic who is content in offering up problems, and no solutions.

Basically your argumetn hinges around your opinion, and well we know that everyone has one of those.

I am afraid you will have to come up with better reasoning or the JW will sweep your reasoning under the "where else shall we go" catch all when the WTS has been proven to be wrong in teh past.

Good to see you back, even though I disagree with you from time to time, I always respected your manner and your delivery.

BTW, who is STRS and what debate board have you been duking it out with him on?

“YOUR WT OVERLORD”

Since: Dec 06

Putingrad

#14 Apr 28, 2010
Topsy Crett wrote:
Good to see you back, even though I disagree with you from time to time, I always respected your manner and your delivery.
Seconded.

Don, unlike some of his acolytes:

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

...has always been a gentleman, a civil debater and a real man's man on these forums. He's proof that people can disagree and engage in civil discourse at the same time.
sigmund freud

United States

#15 Apr 28, 2010
brother winston wrote:
"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." Revelation 19:7.
"That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Ephesians 5:27.
And the lambs wife is the wt org? How cultish!!
Anonymous

United States

#16 Apr 28, 2010
Hi Topsy,

You asked about “STRS”(SettingTheRecordStraigh t). He has given “Captives of a Concept” a huge Thumbs Down. You can find him at http://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com...

He and ThirdWitness seem to be good friends! He is not quite as rough about my motives as ThirdWitness but much of what STRS says seems to have originated with TW.

You said that my argument about Daniel 12:10 hinges around my opinion. Doesn’t the Society’s argument hinge around their opinion?

Is there any way to actually prove that Daniel meant what the Society says that he meant? It still seems to me that in order to believe their interpretation one needs to believe that it is God’s organization. What other reason is there to believe it?

I would think that you too do not agree with the way they use Daniel’s prophecy? Do you?

You seem to be recommending that I need to offer an alternative explanation if I expect to help Jehovah’s Witnesses realize that the Society’s interpretation is incorrect and therefore they may not be who or what they think it is.

I’ve learned that nothing I say is able to help faithful Witnesses who are not reader to face the possibility that the Society may not be Jehovah’s organization. My book seems to appeal mostly to those who already realize that something is wrong and are already in the process of trying to find the answers to their concerns.

Have you read “Captives of a Concept”? On page 136 it offers “An Alternative to ‘God’s organization.’”

Nice to ‘see’ you again.

Don

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#17 Apr 28, 2010
No, I actually don't even know ThirdWitness. However, I do appreciate his work!

Now back to a question I posted to you , Don, in another thread which never got a response.

Can you define what you mean "down till 1919" means? Also, if it is not too much to ask, why do you chose 1876 as the starting date for the inspection?

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#18 Apr 28, 2010
About 1/2 half down the entry I give, what I consider to be, good reasons for when I believe the inspection started: http://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com...

By the way, I'm not dogmatic about the starting point but I believe we should base this on the best available reasons and 1876 as a starting date isn't solidly based. If it is, prove it.

“YOUR WT OVERLORD”

Since: Dec 06

Putingrad

#19 Apr 28, 2010
Don-CoC: You seem to be recommending that I need to offer an alternative explanation if I expect to help Jehovah’s Witnesses realize that the Society’s interpretation is incorrect and therefore they may not be who or what they think it is.

Reply: You really haven't offered anything that shows the WTS interpretation of this particular biblical passage is "incorrect."
All you've done is call in to question whether or not it should be accepted as anything other than opinion on the basis that you don't believe the WTS is "god's" organization.

The problem with this premise is that you, on your own, have made the following claim:

"My understanding at this point is that Jehovah is not dealing with mankind by means of an “organization.” If He has one I don’t know who it is yet. But as a result of my research I confidently feel that the Watchtower Society isn’t it."

In this statement you reveal three very important things:

1. You don't know whether or not "god" uses an organization ("IF he has one...").
2. You don't believe he has one, but you're really not sure one way or another.
3. Despite not knowing IF he has one, you know that if he he does, "the WTS" isn't it.

The question then is, how can you - being a person who doesn't know if god uses an organization or not - know for a fact "the WTS" is not "god's" organization?

You can equate your comments above to this statement:

"I don't know if Area 51 actually exists, but if it DOES exist, I know it doesn't house the remains of alien spaceships."

(For the record, I do know Area 51, properly termed "Detachment 3 of the Air Force Flight Test Center," exists. I do NOT, however, know what is inside it).

While I can appreciate your opinion that you don't personally believe "god" uses an organization, and if he did you don't personally believe it is "the WTS," your book pretty much categorically states that JWs are "Captives of a Concept." You're not expressing an opinion - you've framed your entire view as an iron-clad fact, going so far as to compare JWs to Branch Davidians and People's Temple followers.

The merit of those comparisons is another discussion, but to frame an position as factual the way you do based on a presumption you have no ability to prove - you yourself don't know if "god" uses an organization or which one it is if he doesn't - that this particular organization isn't it. You may believe that it isn't, which is your right, but your book isn't presented as an opinion work. It's presented as indisputable fact.

Don-CoC: My book seems to appeal mostly to those who already realize that something is wrong and are already in the process of trying to find the answers to their concerns.

Reply: You haven't presented an "answer;" in fact, you've not even presented an alternative opinion. In the past I would have said yours has no more or less merit than that presented by "the WTS," but in reality yours actually has far less. You only offer a suggestion that "the WTS" interpretation is "wrong" for no other reason than that you don't believe they are "god's" organization.

Essentially your book is a 130 page assault on the messenger.
Anonymous

United States

#20 Apr 28, 2010
Hello STRS,

You asked two questions,

1)“Why do you chose 1876 as the starting date for Jesus’ inspection?”

It is the date when Jesus began two of his most important teachings:

a) Jesus’ invisible presence did begin in 1874
b) The Gentile Times would end in 1914.

He had been teaching theses things for 3 years before the first Watch Tower magazine was published in 1879.

If in 1918 Jesus did in fact begin to examine the Society’s pre-1919 teachings it seems reasonable to me that he would have looked at what Russell had been teaching about his invisible presence and what he had been saying about what he and his Father were going to do by the end of the Gentile Times.

You also as asked:“Can you define what you mean "down till 1919."

In his “God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached” former President Frederick Franz explained what Jesus would be checking during his 1918-1919 examination:

“The serving of food, the right sort of food at the proper time was the issue. It had to be according to this that a decision must be rendered by the returned master [Jesus].”

Later he said,“Could they, by even their latest record DOWN TILL 1919 prove that they themselves were the composite ‘faithful and discreet slave’ class of Jesus
Christ? The quality of the food itself was to be considered.”
– para. 40

I understand the above to be saying that Jesus examined everything the Society had been providing in the way of “spiritual food”(teachings) from their beginning right “down till 1919.” If you prefer 1879 as the beginning point that would be fine.

Don

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