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Since: Feb 11

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#1
Dec 28, 2012
 

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Not belonging to any religion I have been fascinated by the subtle rivalry between these two religions. Both try to reach other people with their message and the Mormons have twice as many followers around the world and have a tight-knit and strict community just like the JWs. The Mormons, however, are more "worldly" and more prestigious and respected simply because they own establishments of education and their members simply CAN attain to higher levels of society while JWs are repressed and told to live in shitty apartments and that being a doctor, lawyer or else is a sign of your lack of faith. And JW apologists will whine all day that the WT doesn't actually "ban" religion, we know by all sociological studies and measurements that the JWs have the lowest education rates of nearly any religious sect - so education is definitely repressed.

The biggest and most interesting difference between the two is that the Mormons have even MORE unverifiable and frankly well-contradicted claims about recent events. You can sit down with a historian and knock down line by line why Native Americans did not have ancestors from the middle east, why there were no swords and chariots in Pre-Columbian America, why the locations in the Book of Mormon don't make sense, and why the Book of Abraham's "translation" is straight up falsification.

So why, then, can the Mormons get away with being encouraged to go to higher education while the JWs recoil in fear of it - even writing in their publications that higher education can lead to a loss of faith?

The Governing Body simply isn't thinking about this. They are afraid of short-term loss but its really going to mean long-term loss in the end.

See, I believe if the JWs encouraged higher education they WOULD lose people initially. But the people who do go to university and stay as JWs would be more prosperous and would be able to have a JW "legacy" that would be harder for their children to leave (just like we see with Mormons).

In short, the Governing Body is afraid of losing members in the short term, they did this all wrong from the beginning. So now they're left with their latest sad sequence of number two talks denouncing philosophy, meanwhile forgetting that most of their general apologetics (regarding free will, the problem of evil, the cosmological argument) come from the great Christian philosophers - but never mind that, lets make the members fear studying philosophy!

Their anti-education stance will not work out for them.

“The proof is in the pudding!”

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#2
Dec 28, 2012
 

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Not another education thread.

Would Jesus encourage people to get a degree in business or follow him? Would you expect his REAL followers to advocate anything other than fully following Jesus in the preaching and disciple making work?

(Matthew 28:19, 20) Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
hMMMMM

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#3
Dec 28, 2012
 

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Red Davis wrote:
Not belonging to any religion I have been fascinated by the subtle rivalry between these two religions. Both try to reach other people with their message and the Mormons have twice as many followers around the world and have a tight-knit and strict community just like the JWs. The Mormons, however, are more "worldly" and more prestigious and respected simply because they own establishments of education and their members simply CAN attain to higher levels of society while JWs are repressed and told to live in shitty apartments and that being a doctor, lawyer or else is a sign of your lack of faith. And JW apologists will whine all day that the WT doesn't actually "ban" religion, we know by all sociological studies and measurements that the JWs have the lowest education rates of nearly any religious sect - so education is definitely repressed.
The biggest and most interesting difference between the two is that the Mormons have even MORE unverifiable and frankly well-contradicted claims about recent events. You can sit down with a historian and knock down line by line why Native Americans did not have ancestors from the middle east, why there were no swords and chariots in Pre-Columbian America, why the locations in the Book of Mormon don't make sense, and why the Book of Abraham's "translation" is straight up falsification.
So why, then, can the Mormons get away with being encouraged to go to higher education while the JWs recoil in fear of it - even writing in their publications that higher education can lead to a loss of faith?
The Governing Body simply isn't thinking about this. They are afraid of short-term loss but its really going to mean long-term loss in the end.
See, I believe if the JWs encouraged higher education they WOULD lose people initially. But the people who do go to university and stay as JWs would be more prosperous and would be able to have a JW "legacy" that would be harder for their children to leave (just like we see with Mormons).
In short, the Governing Body is afraid of losing members in the short term, they did this all wrong from the beginning. So now they're left with their latest sad sequence of number two talks denouncing philosophy, meanwhile forgetting that most of their general apologetics (regarding free will, the problem of evil, the cosmological argument) come from the great Christian philosophers - but never mind that, lets make the members fear studying philosophy!
Their anti-education stance will not work out for them.
Mormons are not only educated, but they save their scams for non-Mormons, as our country would have found out had we elected one who thought he was the second coming of Jesus Christ.
They have gotten wealthy by helping each other, and each other only, and ripping off the less worthy (as Mormons see it).
They ARE smarter, education IS the key to financial success, which means more $$ for those in charge.
The JWs have nothing on the Salt Lake Temple now do they?
The wealth that these money making cults bask in tax free, is starting to piss of the American taxpayers though.
Only the charities that "religions" run should be tax deductible, nothing else.
Trolling for new members like the Mormons and JWs do is NOT charity.
I threw up in my mouth a little (and screamed at the TV ) when Ann Romney was on The View comparing Mitten's "ministry" to the brave military service of those in Vietnam.
It certainly pissed a lot of people off, and rightfully so.
Mormons also do not drag their children in their "ministry" to troll for recruits.
I do respect them for that too.
All in all, a much more respectable cult than the Jehovah's Witnesses.
The public is well aware of this fact, too.
hMMMMM

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#4
Dec 28, 2012
 

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Mormons are not only educated, but they save their scams for non-Mormons, as our country would have found out had we elected one who thought he was the second coming of Jesus Christ.
They have gotten wealthy by helping each other, and each other only, and ripping off the less worthy (as Mormons see it).
They ARE smarter, education IS the key to financial success, which means more $$ for those in charge.
The JWs have nothing on the Salt Lake Temple now do they?
The wealth that these money making cults bask in tax free, is starting to piss of the American taxpayers though.
Only the charities that "religions" run should be tax deductible, nothing else.
Trolling for new members like the Mormons and JWs do is NOT charity.
I threw up in my mouth a little (and screamed at the TV ) when Ann Romney was on The View comparing Mitten's "ministry" to the brave military service of those in Vietnam.
It certainly pissed a lot of people off, and rightfully so.
Mormons also do not drag their children in their "ministry" to troll for recruits.
I do respect them for that too.
All in all, a much more respectable cult than the Jehovah's Witnesses.
The public is well aware of this fact, too.

Since: Feb 11

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#6
Dec 29, 2012
 

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Duh-boy wrote:
Not another education thread.
Would Jesus encourage people to get a degree in business or follow him? Would you expect his REAL followers to advocate anything other than fully following Jesus in the preaching and disciple making work?
(Matthew 28:19, 20) Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
So are you demonizing all of the active Witnesses that own businesses, or the bethel lawyers?

Can I ask you an honest question Duh-Boy? Why aren't 100% or at least close to 100% of all JWs pioneers? What is causing the 99% of other JWs to have such a lack of faith that they don't follow Jesus in the manner in which you describe?

Since: Feb 11

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#7
Dec 29, 2012
 
YKN0T wrote:
Well the WTS borrowed the FWN from the Mormons (FHE)...
On JWN we used to talk about more possible 'Mormonizations'. Generally speaking there is a lot of structural, social and doomsday reworking we could learn from the LDS.
Gilead could easily be tooled into a BYU like existence with proper planning (BYU btw is the largest religious university and third-largest private university in the U.S.)
Yep, that's one thing I found fascinating about BYU, its essentially a big Mormon Church with the option to learn something useful in life. Its not my thing but its definitely productive.

How many JWs know that the "Family Worship Night" is something the Mormons have already had instituted? I found that of interest too.

Since: Oct 10

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#8
Dec 29, 2012
 
Duh-boy wrote:
Not another education thread.
Would Jesus encourage people to get a degree in business or follow him? Would you expect his REAL followers to advocate anything other than fully following Jesus in the preaching and disciple making work?
(Matthew 28:19, 20) Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
one of the GB members son went to uni to become a lawyer, now the GB reasons for not going to uni, is mainly because of the time wasted when one could be preaching the good news, and also the bad association at uni, now the GB does not stipulate about any sort of degree really only that higher education is a time waster, however they don't say any wanting to become a lAwyer doctor or engineer, rather no uni is stated, where as most JW that do go to uni go because its the only way these days to get a trade certificate many want to be teachers, we have two elders that are teachers, one child is going to uni to become a teacher, you see its ok really as the GB also say that those wanting to go to uni are money lovers also and want high paying jobs, teachers get less money the cleaners in this country.

Children going to school have many more tests of their faith than those that go to colledge or uni, at least these ones are much older and most are baptised, so the GB members Son was he less likely to leave the faith than say the average JW.

We have quite a few that have gone to uni and are still in the KH but there are many that never did and have left of been DF.

Thing is the GB want young ones to pioneer or to go to bethel, or do trades this helps in building and so on and so forth, however as said these days many have to go to do degrees just to become an electrician, but of course thats handy.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

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#9
Dec 29, 2012
 

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Red Davis wrote:
Not belonging to any religion I have been fascinated by the subtle rivalry between these two religions. Both try to reach other people with their message and the Mormons have twice as many followers around the world and have a tight-knit and strict community just like the JWs. The Mormons, however, are more "worldly" and more prestigious and respected simply because they own establishments of education and their members simply CAN attain to higher levels of society while JWs are repressed and told to live in shitty apartments and that being a doctor, lawyer or else is a sign of your lack of faith. And JW apologists will whine all day that the WT doesn't actually "ban" religion, we know by all sociological studies and measurements that the JWs have the lowest education rates of nearly any religious sect - so education is definitely repressed.
The biggest and most interesting difference between the two is that the Mormons have even MORE unverifiable and frankly well-contradicted claims about recent events. You can sit down with a historian and knock down line by line why Native Americans did not have ancestors from the middle east, why there were no swords and chariots in Pre-Columbian America, why the locations in the Book of Mormon don't make sense, and why the Book of Abraham's "translation" is straight up falsification.
So why, then, can the Mormons get away with being encouraged to go to higher education while the JWs recoil in fear of it - even writing in their publications that higher education can lead to a loss of faith?
The Governing Body simply isn't thinking about this. They are afraid of short-term loss but its really going to mean long-term loss in the end.
See, I believe if the JWs encouraged higher education they WOULD lose people initially. But the people who do go to university and stay as JWs would be more prosperous and would be able to have a JW "legacy" that would be harder for their children to leave (just like we see with Mormons).
In short, the Governing Body is afraid of losing members in the short term, they did this all wrong from the beginning. So now they're left with their latest sad sequence of number two talks denouncing philosophy, meanwhile forgetting that most of their general apologetics (regarding free will, the problem of evil, the cosmological argument) come from the great Christian philosophers - but never mind that, lets make the members fear studying philosophy!
Their anti-education stance will not work out for them.
The ONLY ones who can teach JWs anything are Jehovah God and Jesus Chrst.

You can't expect to just pick and choose what you want from whichever religions. The important thing is to know the truth REGARDLESS of how popular/unpopular that is.

So Jehovah's Witnesses learn from the Bible, not other religions.

Jehovah's Witnesses:
http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/

Jehovah's Witnesses' publications:
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/

Jehovah's Witnesses' Bible teachings:
http://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/

Since: Oct 10

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#12
Dec 29, 2012
 
YKN0T wrote:
<quoted text>I think it would be far more beneficial to link scans or discussions of BOE or CO outlines about higher education than dragging individual people into the comments.
dragging individual experiences what i have said is the truth, elder going to uni becoming teachers some of their kids also going to uni to become teachers, and what I have said is the truth, something you wont see in any WT article. I have never ever lied about anything I have said, and that is my experience as a JW.

As said may JW have to go to uni in my country just to get a trades certificate, that is how it is, its not being greedy for more money at all, as the WT would love those degrees to be used for the WT.

but of course don't take my word for it just believe what ever the WT says, or that i have a Wt article to back it up.

You sound as if YOU don't have any practical experience as a JW yourself, unless its printed in the WT.......... then you might believe it!!

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#14
Dec 29, 2012
 

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YKN0T wrote:
<quoted text>
Gareth seeing how you are not a JW and the higher education issue is primarily targeted at born/raised JWs.
this is one area you probably should keep quiet.
If you are that gung-ho with a convert-like discernment I suggest you get your 104 questions in!
or maybe.....you should busy yourself in researching and later posting the dates and publication citations of the development of what and how our/the 'Truth' came to be as it is now.
well thats interesting I mean you believe what he says about not being a JW, yet a JW posts like myself giving experiences of what I know in my KH and local congregations and you say well best provid that proof, but may I ask from what! the WT articles. i stand by what i have said as truth.
Jace

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#15
Dec 29, 2012
 
Duh-boy wrote:
Not another education thread.
Would Jesus encourage people to get a degree in business or follow him? Would you expect his REAL followers to advocate anything other than fully following Jesus in the preaching and disciple making work?
(Matthew 28:19, 20) Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
See folks this jw poster has confirm the entire premise of this thread
Lol
In the small world of jw they view education as a threat to their dogmas while other denominations accept education as merely another facet of life. Going to the store buying tires getting an education buying a bike cutting grass etc
As duh boy illustrates they see education in would Jesus do it type questions
Heck can you not think of all the things one could ask that same question
Would Jesus drive a Vett or ride a Harley would Jesus go to the hair cuttery or let his hair grow
This is an excellent thread by a jw confirming everything the poster said about jw and their small mindset when it comes to higher education
Thx duh boy
Jace

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#16
Dec 29, 2012
 
Red Davis wrote:
Not belonging to any religion I have been fascinated by the subtle rivalry between these two religions. Both try to reach other people with their message and the Mormons have twice as many followers around the world and have a tight-knit and strict community just like the JWs. The Mormons, however, are more "worldly" and more prestigious and respected simply because they own establishments of education and their members simply CAN attain to higher levels of society while JWs are repressed and told to live in shitty apartments and that being a doctor, lawyer or else is a sign of your lack of faith. And JW apologists will whine all day that the WT doesn't actually "ban" religion, we know by all sociological studies and measurements that the JWs have the lowest education rates of nearly any religious sect - so education is definitely repressed.
The biggest and most interesting difference between the two is that the Mormons have even MORE unverifiable and frankly well-contradicted claims about recent events. You can sit down with a historian and knock down line by line why Native Americans did not have ancestors from the middle east, why there were no swords and chariots in Pre-Columbian America, why the locations in the Book of Mormon don't make sense, and why the Book of Abraham's "translation" is straight up falsification.
So why, then, can the Mormons get away with being encouraged to go to higher education while the JWs recoil in fear of it - even writing in their publications that higher education can lead to a loss of faith?
The Governing Body simply isn't thinking about this. They are afraid of short-term loss but its really going to mean long-term loss in the end.
See, I believe if the JWs encouraged higher education they WOULD lose people initially. But the people who do go to university and stay as JWs would be more prosperous and would be able to have a JW "legacy" that would be harder for their children to leave (just like we see with Mormons).
In short, the Governing Body is afraid of losing members in the short term, they did this all wrong from the beginning. So now they're left with their latest sad sequence of number two talks denouncing philosophy, meanwhile forgetting that most of their general apologetics (regarding free will, the problem of evil, the cosmological argument) come from the great Christian philosophers - but never mind that, lets make the members fear studying philosophy!
Their anti-education stance will not work out for them.
Excellent post summarizing jw mindset on education
Jace

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#17
Dec 29, 2012
 
YKN0T wrote:
Well the WTS borrowed the FWN from the Mormons (FHE)...
On JWN we used to talk about more possible 'Mormonizations'. Generally speaking there is a lot of structural, social and doomsday reworking we could learn from the LDS.
Gilead could easily be tooled into a BYU like existence with proper planning (BYU btw is the largest religious university and third-largest private university in the U.S.)
Only the jw lack any colleges per their size
hMMMMM

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#18
Dec 29, 2012
 
Gilead=BYU, that is pretty funny!
JACE

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#19
Dec 29, 2012
 
array wrote:
<quoted text>one of the GB members son went to uni to become a lawyer, now the GB reasons for not going to uni, is mainly because of the time wasted when one could be preaching the good news, and also the bad association at uni, now the GB does not stipulate about any sort of degree really only that higher education is a time waster, however they don't say any wanting to become a lAwyer doctor or engineer, rather no uni is stated, where as most JW that do go to uni go because its the only way these days to get a trade certificate many want to be teachers, we have two elders that are teachers, one child is going to uni to become a teacher, you see its ok really as the GB also say that those wanting to go to uni are money lovers also and want high paying jobs, teachers get less money the cleaners in this country.
Children going to school have many more tests of their faith than those that go to colledge or uni, at least these ones are much older and most are baptised, so the GB members Son was he less likely to leave the faith than say the average JW.
We have quite a few that have gone to uni and are still in the KH but there are many that never did and have left of been DF.
Thing is the GB want young ones to pioneer or to go to bethel, or do trades this helps in building and so on and so forth, however as said these days many have to go to do degrees just to become an electrician, but of course thats handy.
these are the following reasons college has been discouraged among jw youth

1.

the time is too SHORT face the fact you will never grow up foolishness the world is going to end soon

2.

waste of time, spend time hawking wt books as one of our self created Titles called a Pioneer

3.

college folks don't want to do hard work with their hands like jesus

4.

you could have sex in college

5.

you could get drunk in college

6

you could be exposed to "evolution" and its teachings

7.

you could be exposed to the philosophy of men- OF course listening to the wt writers DOES NOT CONSTITUTE "philosophy" OF MEN i guess
JACE

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#20
Dec 29, 2012
 

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8 folks go to college to be RICH

I LOVE THOSE ARTICLES with
Gold, cash and yachts

now let's be honest how many folks do you personally know went to college tools around the Islands on a 110ft yacht due to going to college

most college folks i know are just trying to make it like most folks'

but listen to the WT and they got you hanging with "THE DONALD"
hMMMMM

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#21
Dec 29, 2012
 

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The joke is college parties had nothing on the shenanigans that go on during assemblies when all the parents (elders,CO's, POs) go out WITHOUT their teenage children for "Theocratic association" leaving teenagers alone in hotel rooms.
Real bright huh?
They could care less about keeping children safe.
It is all about control.
They have to drag little ones into dangerous situations banging doors, but if the parents want to go out and party, hey all of a sudden keeping your children with you at all times, goes right out the door!
If parents save for their child's college education then less dollars to the wBTS.
IF JW kids take scholarships or grants and are allowed "fellowship" with younger ones, they might actually prove the WBTS incorrect, that college is an awesome place to be.
Sick, sick, sick
JACE

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#22
Dec 29, 2012
 
YKN0T wrote:
<quoted text>
JB has not become a lawyer.
JB didn't enroll until he was middle aged.
After receiving a Bachelors in Gen Ed he later enrolled in a Liberal Arts Masters program.
I would remind everyone on this board that children of GB have no choice in who their fathers are and giving these individual space and privacy is important especially in light of Malcolm Rutherford.
Further discerning WTS politics and political personalities is also important. When JB enrolled we were still riding provisions enacted under Bro.Barry. The return to higher education full-on bash wasn't until after Milton died and Jaracz upped his tactics to return to his last coup during the early-mid 1980s
Also consider the fact that under present powers that be if an Elder has a child living at home and is perceived or known to be promoting such education he is subject for removal from the Body of Elders.
With Bethel staff reductions the key push of late is to limit majority of Bethelites to one year.
Despite all these personality politics and fear of 2014 shenanigans by the WTS many still manage to attend college though most are doing their first two years through online courses.
I think it would be far more beneficial to link scans or discussions of BOE or CO outlines about higher education than dragging individual people into the comments.
Further discerning WTS politics and political personalities is also important. When JB enrolled we were still riding provisions enacted under Bro.Barry. The return to higher education full-on bash wasn't until after Milton died and Jaracz upped his tactics to return to his last coup during the early-mid 1980s

Also consider the fact that under present powers that be if an Elder has a child living at home and is perceived or known to be promoting such education he is subject for removal from the Body of Elders.

##########

a number of the former Bethelites who lived here in the Washington DC area would get together at times and this issue came up of how the Society was "soften" their position on college SO WE THOUGHT

ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY WERE adovocating for fellow jw to leave families alone on this issue
we were like they should have done that any way

i had a bethel buddy down in Richmond VA who got black balled by the CO who he himself was a former bethel for going to college

as soon as he left bethel he signed straight up for college and a lot of the kids were referencing him going to college

now he was a MS with a bookstudy, giving public talks going on for all practical purposes "sheparding calls" when he was up in Harlem before leaving bethel

got a good recommendation from the body, etc. His REAPPOINTMENT WAS HELD UP.
THE CO Ken karras even told him why you are not exemplary being seen as going to college as a former bethelite

it looks like Jah didn't provide for you etc

but after a few years we know the wt went back TO THEIR HARD STANCE EVEN THREATING ELDERS WITH DELETIONS

THE tool of threatening grown "Arse" men with KEEPING THEIR MOUTH SHUT IS A long and well tested tool found within the jw religion

for decades it has always been known that if you question the WT editorial staff, you have to KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT

so threatening jw with Silence is a long tradition in the jw faith
JACE

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#23
Dec 29, 2012
 
YKN0T wrote:
<quoted text>
Gareth seeing how you are not a JW and the higher education issue is primarily targeted at born/raised JWs.
this is one area you probably should keep quiet.
If you are that gung-ho with a convert-like discernment I suggest you get your 104 questions in!
or maybe.....you should busy yourself in researching and later posting the dates and publication citations of the development of what and how our/the 'Truth' came to be as it is now.
JOKE!!!!!!!!!!

don't be so cold

but you were on Point
JACE

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#24
Dec 29, 2012
 
hMMMMM wrote:
Gilead=BYU, that is pretty funny!
actually they could have
if you look at how many of today most powerful colleges really started at as schools for the religions members and kick in about 75-100yrs and you got major institutions with serious degree programs

wt could have done the same, but the end is so near

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