Where does the apostles say the Great crowd are not sons of God now?

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Since: Apr 10

Cape Town, South Africa

#1 Sep 28, 2012
Where does the Apostles ever say the great crowd are not sons of God now that, they will only become so after they have passed a test based own their own merits?
Deist

Winter Springs, FL

#2 Sep 28, 2012
It a watchtower magazine probably...

Remember that "the bible alone is not enough", and prior to the 1800's true witnesses of Jehovah used time machines to come forward to the 21st century to get copies of the Watchtower and bring it back with them to the dark ages to convey that message.

Since: Apr 10

South Africa

#3 Sep 29, 2012
Bttt This is a subject Im discussing with the witness when witnessing to them at the convention!

So far no answer !
Melito of Sadis

Europe

#4 Oct 1, 2012
The great expecttion of all creation is the revealing of God sons co heirs of Jesus , and enjoy the same freedom as sons Romans 8:13 - 24. Simple conclusion Noah Abel, Abraham and I we're waiting this reavealing of the sons

Since: Apr 10

Cape Town, South Africa

#5 Oct 3, 2012
Melito the context speak of those that are already sons of God through adoption by putting their faith in Christ Rom 8: 14 - 16 while Rom 8: 21 speak of them being revealed being co heirs ,that takes place at Jesus return as victorious King!

Since: Apr 10

Cape Town, South Africa

#6 Oct 7, 2012
Bttt!
Michelle1966

Schofield, WI

#7 Oct 7, 2012
I don't think you will get a correct answer, you may get a bunch of garbage told to you from a WT mag. or some scripture that has been falsified in thier own book they consider a bible, but a real answer? Nope..

Since: Apr 10

Cape Town, South Africa

#8 Oct 7, 2012
I don't think you will get a correct answer, you may get a bunch of garbage told to you from a WT mag. or some scripture that has been falsified in thier own book they consider a bible, but a real answer? Nope..

>>The funny thing is the apostles preched the Kingdom according to them which according them is divided in two classes yest we cannot see them writing anything the JW say re the great crowd when the witnessed the kingdom ! How,s that from the Bible ?
Leo

Ontario, CA

#9 Oct 9, 2012
Michelle1966 wrote:
I don't think you will get a correct answer, you may get a bunch of garbage told to you from a WT mag. or some scripture that has been falsified in thier own book they consider a bible, but a real answer? Nope..
Hi Michelle Im not sure which translation of the bible you enjoy using but to address the question of whether the witnesses bible is accurate or not, I would like to say that it is and it is even MORE accurate than most popularly used translations, if even for the fact alone that translators of popular versions removed Gods name from the scriptures at least 7000 times due to various reasons. The New World Translation actually bravely went against the popular tradition of removing Gods name by putting it back when most translators wouldn't. You can see here > http://removinggodsname.xanga.com/329800252/i... what some scholars have written on this subject and why most bible translation have failed in this regard. Let your conscience, not political correctness or "popular" opinion, guide you as Jesus himself did in his day. Remember Jesus stirred up the religious leaders during his ministering because he wasn't swayed by being politically correct and exposed the church leaders in public. I hope you find this information regarding the history of different translations interesting :)

Since: Apr 10

Cape Town, South Africa

#10 Oct 10, 2012
Hi Michelle Im not sure which translation of the bible you enjoy using but to address the question of whether the witnesses bible is accurate or not, I would like to say that it is and it is even MORE accurate than most popularly used translations, if even for the fact alone that translators of popular versions removed Gods name from the scriptures at least 7000 times due to various reasons. The New World Translation actually bravely went against the popular tradition of removing Gods name by putting it back when most translators wouldn't. You can see here > http://removinggodsname.xanga.com/329800252/i... what some scholars have written on this subject and why most bible translation have failed in this regard. Let your conscience, not political correctness or "popular" opinion, guide you as Jesus himself did in his day. Remember Jesus stirred up the religious leaders during his ministering because he wasn't swayed by being politically correct and exposed the church leaders in public. I hope you find this information regarding the history of different translations interesting :)

>>Can you answer the question of my thread please !Let me remind that the foremost learned guy who the WT quoted re the name, Prof Howard has made it very clear that the WT have gone beyond what he said ! He made it very clear that all we have is theories , no evidence and that WTS makes to much of these for which their is no evidence ! Let me help you out to show you just what we mean !

How did the Jews and disciples pronounce Gods name in Koine Greek in Jesus day ? You tell us!
Tao itness

United States

#11 Oct 10, 2012
Johan Henze wrote:
Bttt This is a subject Im discussing with the witness when witnessing to them at the convention!
So far no answer !
Also remember this doctrine is based on a few scriptures that are obviously misapplied. After Jesus had dealings with a faithful non- Jew ,he said I have sheep that are not of this fold.Nearly ALL scholars beleive this to refer to the Gentiles. And since much of Acts is dedicated to the gathering of non-Jews. And ,according to JW doctrine they are NOT one flock! One stays here and one goes to heaven. Also the great crowd are dressed in white robes and serve in the tenple day and night. This could only apply to the preistly class. The first century Jewish Christians reading this would ONLY understand this to be so. Some scholars beleive John HEARD the number and Jewish tribes which was symbolic for when he SAW an uncountable number out of all nations! So the 144000 and the great crowd may be one and the same! Either wat its a flimsy teaching that institutes a technique of high control cults where the few are set up as a shierarchy with direct communication with God!

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#12 Oct 10, 2012
Tao itness wrote:
<quoted text>Also remember this doctrine is based on a few scriptures that are obviously misapplied. After Jesus had dealings with a faithful non- Jew ,he said I have sheep that are not of this fold.Nearly ALL scholars beleive this to refer to the Gentiles. And since much of Acts is dedicated to the gathering of non-Jews. And ,according to JW doctrine they are NOT one flock! One stays here and one goes to heaven. Also the great crowd are dressed in white robes and serve in the tenple day and night. This could only apply to the preistly class. The first century Jewish Christians reading this would ONLY understand this to be so. Some scholars beleive John HEARD the number and Jewish tribes which was symbolic for when he SAW an uncountable number out of all nations! So the 144000 and the great crowd may be one and the same! Either wat its a flimsy teaching that institutes a technique of high control cults where the few are set up as a shierarchy with direct communication with God!
i figured out the same thing tao... and i didn't come to that conclusion by reading it from someone else.... its as clear as a bell ringing loud to me.

the great crowd are the literal unkown number that make up the symbolic temple coming down from heaven 12x12, the new jerusalem, the bride of christ,.... they are taken from EVERY tribe, tongue, people and nation to handle priestly duties before the throne of god, and have been given white robes.

jw theology is demonicly inspired.... it didn't result from new light getting brighter, it resulted from rutherford being in a bind because he ended up with more than 144,000 followers while claiming they alone were god's people, and at the same time the demons got everyone to deny the blood of christ at a WICKED memorial where they all systematically publicly REFUSE the bread and the blood...... they got CAPTURED just like it says in matt 24;24.

the jw organization is a WICKED demon inspired place.... its hard for jws to believe their organization is the exact opposite of what it claims to be..... i was really hard to believe i could be duped that bad.....
Tao itness

United States

#13 Oct 10, 2012
red blood relative wrote:
<quoted text>
i figured out the same thing tao... and i didn't come to that conclusion by reading it from someone else.... its as clear as a bell ringing loud to me.
the great crowd are the literal unkown number that make up the symbolic temple coming down from heaven 12x12, the new jerusalem, the bride of christ,.... they are taken from EVERY tribe, tongue, people and nation to handle priestly duties before the throne of god, and have been given white robes.
jw theology is demonicly inspired.... it didn't result from new light getting brighter, it resulted from rutherford being in a bind because he ended up with more than 144,000 followers while claiming they alone were god's people, and at the same time the demons got everyone to deny the blood of christ at a WICKED memorial where they all systematically publicly REFUSE the bread and the blood...... they got CAPTURED just like it says in matt 24;24.
the jw organization is a WICKED demon inspired place.... its hard for jws to believe their organization is the exact opposite of what it claims to be..... i was really hard to believe i could be duped that bad.....
iit came to me while really praying and meditating on Revelation a few years ago. I then searched to see if any one else had noticed HEARING the number ,then seeing the great crowd,and found out,tho not an extremely popular exegis,I wasnt the only onr that saw this. Also the fact that they were of the preistly class ,wearing white robes and serving in the temple jumped out at me.The first century readers could draw no other conclusion-especially if it were written after the temple was destroyed,it would have espesially aroused them,now that the preisthood would have been destroyed.Either way,it can only be reffering to the preistly class!
Leo

Ontario, CA

#14 Oct 12, 2012
Part 1:Let me state that although I am happy to answer questions to best of my ability from sincere people who truly do wonder what Witnesses teach I will do my best to avoid those who have an "agenda" and are not willing to accept any answer and will only twist what Witnesses really teach. Johan is one who I would guess is someone who engages in apostate activity. Apostate meaning those who do know what witnesses preach but for reasons of there own were not satisfied with the teachings of Witnesses and instead of doing what any reasonable person would, by leaving the religion and seeking another that better satisfies his conscience instead he remained to bring reproach upon the congregation and was publicly rebuked/ dis fellowshipped by the elders. These apostate individuals instead of spend there lives seeking to find and preach the truth instead spend there lives merely attempting to sabotage the reputation of the congregation and lead others astray. True worshipers of Christ don't spend there time trying to lead others astray through gossip about others but instead lovingly offer what they sincerely believe is the truth. You can tell from the tone of the posts of many individuals here that they are coming from a place of anger and bitterness.. not a loving sincere place. This should be an indication to the readers here. I say Johan is probably an apostate individual because he stated that he shows up at Witness conventions to "witness" to them. Anyone who has ever attended one of the conventions would know that the only ones who do this so called "witness" are apostate individuals who stand outside the conventions and protest. I never see this type of behavior and effort to undermine and distort the teachings of any other religious organizations as I do with the Witnesses. So I figure they must be doing something right! Jesus said to his disciples " do not be misled.. the slave is not greater than his master.. if they persecuted me, they will persecute you." You see being hated by many is not a bad thing when it comes to religion. The pharisees tried these same tactics with the Messiah as well. They twisted his meaning and distorted his words and challenged him in public and when Jesus would publicly expose them they would turn angry at him and even threatened his life. Witnesses are not Jesus but they do publicly expose false teachings by use of the scriptures not by hateful confrontations or being disrespectful towards different beliefs. If you disagree with a church you leave and find another.. you don't spend your time following them around, standing outside there conventions screaming at them as they walk by with there families or post all day online attacking them. Most of these people on here know what Witnesses really teach and merely attempt to twist the actual teachings/motivations/attitude of the brothers and sisters and the whole organization to mislead others away. If you sincerely would ever like to know what Witnesses really teach go straight to the source. They will be happy to meet with sincere hearted persons free of any charge or obligation. Then you as an individual can decide for yourself instead of all these third party people. Think about it, do you think persons who spend there time hating a particular religion are going to tell you the truth about them?
Leo

Ontario, CA

#15 Oct 12, 2012
Part 2: As for "new light" the witness organization will make periodic announcements of adjustments in scriptual reasoning. This shows the transparency of the organization. The Society does not do any "cover-up" operations. Instead the Governing Body constantly studies the scriptures for deeper understanding and make adjustments when needed because they do not want to become so rigid and rooted in tradition that truth will be ignored simply because of a "that's the way we always thought of it or because no way we can admit we didn't clearly understand the full meaning because it will make us look bad" attitude. No, the brothers are honest and sincere. Remember even men and women of the Bible had to be adjusted in their time as well. It's not just the adjustment that is at issue.. it's a matter of how you accept adjustments from Jehovah. Let us never forget we want to please God not impress or tickle the ears of men. Thanks for listening :)

Since: Aug 10

Dunbar, UK

#16 Oct 12, 2012
Johan Henze wrote:
Where does the Apostles ever say the great crowd are not sons of God?
Nowhere

John 1:11-13
Jesus came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Everyone and anyone who receives Jesus as the Son of God is given the *right* by Jesus Christ to be a child of God.

Only Satan would seek to rob anyone of that right.

The great crowd are born again Christians.

Since: Apr 10

Cape Town, South Africa

#17 Oct 13, 2012
Part 1:Let me state that although I am happy to answer questions to best of my ability from sincere people who truly do wonder what Witnesses teach I will do my best to avoid those who have an "agenda" and are not willing to accept any answer and will only twist what Witnesses really teach. Johan is one who I would guess is someone who engages in apostate activity. Apostate meaning those who do know what witnesses preach but for reasons of there own were not satisfied with the teachings of Witnesses and instead of doing what any reasonable person would, by leaving the religion and seeking another that better satisfies his conscience instead he remained to bring reproach upon the congregation and was publicly rebuked/ dis fellowshipped by the elders. These apostate individuals instead of spend there lives seeking to find and preach the truth instead spend there lives merely attempting to sabotage the reputation of the congregation and lead others astray. True worshipers of Christ don't spend there time trying to lead others astray through gossip about others but instead lovingly offer what they sincerely believe is the truth. You can tell from the tone of the posts of many individuals here that they are coming from a place of anger and bitterness.. not a loving sincere place. This should be an indication to the readers here. I say Johan is probably an apostate individual because he stated that he shows up at Witness conventions to "witness" to them. Anyone who has ever attended one of the conventions would know that the only ones who do this so called "witness" are apostate individuals who stand outside the conventions and protest. I never see this type of behavior and effort to undermine and distort the teachings of any other religious organizations as I do with the Witnesses. So I figure they must be doing something right! Jesus said to his disciples " do not be misled.. the slave is not greater than his master.. if they persecuted me, they will persecute you." You see being hated by many is not a bad thing when it comes to religion. The pharisees tried these same tactics with the Messiah as well. They twisted his meaning and distorted his words and challenged him in public and when Jesus would publicly expose them they would turn angry at him and even threatened his life. Witnesses are not Jesus but they do publicly expose false teachings by use of the scriptures not by hateful confrontations or being disrespectful towards different beliefs. If you disagree with a church you leave and find another.. you don't spend your time following them around, standing outside there conventions screaming at them as they walk by with there families or post all day online attacking them. Most of these people on here know what Witnesses really teach and merely attempt to twist the actual teachings/motivations/attitude of the brothers and sisters and the whole organization to mislead others away. If you sincerely would ever like to know what Witnesses really teach go straight to the source. They will be happy to meet with sincere hearted persons free of any charge or obligation. Then you as an individual can decide for yourself instead of all these third party people. Think about it, do you think persons who spend there time hating a particular religion are going to tell you the truth about them?

>>Was Paul and his fellow companions apostate cause they went to the Jewish synagogues their place of worship and reasoned with the Jews !

>>When Paul and his companions had passed through Amphipolis and Appolonia they came to Thessalonica where there was a Jewish synagogue ! As was his CUSTOM Paul went into the synagogue and on three Sabbath days he REASONED from the scripture with them!

>>The Jews who refused to listen was not happy with their presence accusing them af making trouble Verse 5- 6

>>Are you JW acting like these Jews or not?

>>Show from the Bible where they ever said the Great crowd are not in the covenant
FutureMan

Brisbane, Australia

#18 Oct 13, 2012
(448.1) 40:6.2 It is a solemn and supernal fact that such lowly and material creatures as Urantia human beings are the sons of God, faith children of the Highest.“Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of God.”“As many as received him, to them gave he the power to recognize that they are the sons of God.” While “it does not yet appear what you shall be,” even now “you are the faith sons of God”; “for you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship, whereby you cry,‘our Father.’” Spoke the prophet of old in the name of the eternal God:“Even to them will I give in my house a place and a name better than sons; I will give them an everlasting name, one that shall not be cut off.”“And because you are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of his Son into your hearts.”

(448.2) 40:6.3 All evolutionary worlds of mortal habitation harbor these faith sons of God, sons of grace and mercy, mortal beings belonging to the divine family and accordingly called the sons of God. Urantia mortals are entitled to regard themselves as being the sons of God because:

(448.3) 40:6.4 1. You are sons of spiritual promise, faith sons; you have accepted the status of sonship. You believe in the reality of your sonship, and thus does your sonship with God become eternally real.

(448.4) 40:6.5 2. A Creator Son of God became one of you; he is your elder brother in fact; and if in spirit you become truly related brothers of Christ, the victorious Michael, then in spirit must you also be sons of that Father which you have in common — even the Universal Father of all.

(448.5) 40:6.6 3. You are sons because the spirit of a Son has been poured out upon you, has been freely and certainly bestowed upon all Urantia races. This spirit ever draws you toward the divine Son, who is its source, and toward the Paradise Father, who is the source of that divine Son.

(448.6) 40:6.7 4. Of his divine free-willness, the Universal Father has given you your creature personalities. You have been endowed with a measure of that divine spontaneity of freewill action which God shares with all who may become his sons.

(448.7) 40:6.8 5. There dwells within you a fragment of the Universal Father, and you are thus directly related to the divine Father of all the Sons of God.
(Quoted from the Urantia book)

Since: Aug 10

Dunbar, UK

#19 Oct 15, 2012
Johan Henze wrote:
Where does the Apostles ever say the great crowd are not sons of God?
Nowhere

John 1:11-13
Jesus came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Everyone and anyone who receives Jesus as the Son of God is given the *right* by Jesus Christ to be a child of God.

Only Satan would seek to rob anyone of that right.

The great crowd are born again Christians.
UNchained

Maryville, TN

#20 Oct 15, 2012
Leo wrote:
Part 2: As for "new light" the witness organization will make periodic announcements of adjustments in scriptual reasoning....
It's not just the adjustment that is at issue.. it's a matter of how you accept adjustments from Jehovah. Let us never forget we want to please God not impress or tickle the ears of men. Thanks for listening :)
What can you tell me about these adjustments from Jehovah?...

March 1, 1965 Watchtower
Page 139
Paragraph 9

*** Who Will Be Resurrected from the Dead?***
As in the case of Tyre and Sidon, Jesus showed that Sodom, bad as it was, had not got to the state of being unable to repent. That is why Jesus said that, if his powerful works that had taken place in Capernaum had taken place in Sodom,“it would have remained” until Jesus’ day. And in that connection Jesus said that Capernaum, which had been exalted in a spiritual way to heaven, would be abased down to Ha&#8242;des, not to Gehenna. Heaven for height and Ha&#8242;des or Sheol for depth; and by using this contrast Jesus meant that Capernaum would undergo the deepest abasement. Though highly favored by Jesus, that city does not exist today any more than Sodom does. But if Sodom had had Capernaum’s opportunity Sodom would have had ten or more righteous persons in it and it would have continued over nineteen hundred years longer till Jesus’ day and then some. So the spiritual recovery of the dead people of Sodom is not hopeless.

July 1, 1967 Watchtower
Page 409
How will these, having been caught, be disposed of? Will they be preserved alive? Will they be killed and buried in Hades or Sheol, which is the common grave of dead mankind, from which resurrection is possible? No, these political organizations are slated to be “hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.” This the Bible describes as the “second death.”(Rev. 20:14) It means the death from which there is no resurrection. They will be burned up root and branch, as completely gone forever as the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which Jehovah God burned up by a rain of fire and sulphur from heaven, never to be rebuilt. It is destruction in Gehenna in which God destroys both body and soul (any right or possibility of living).—Matt. 10:28; Gen. 19:23-29; 2 Pet. 2:6-9; Jude 7.

October 8, 1974 AWAKE!
Page 20
Moreover, God’s undeserved kindness and care are so great that he will bring back the people of Sodom by a resurrection, with opportunity to learn and turn around to the way of life, even as his Son stated.—Luke 10:11, 12; Matt. 11:24.

June 1, 1988 Watchtower
Page 31
Consequently, in addition to what Jude 7 says, the Bible uses Sodom/Gomorrah and the Flood as patterns for the destructive end of the present wicked system. It is apparent, then, that those whom God executed in those past judgments experienced irreversible destruction.
~~~~~~~~~~

Notice the dates of the publications:

March 1, 1965 - "spiritual recovery of the dead people of Sodom is not hopeless"

July 1, 1967 - "They will be burned up root and branch, as completely gone forever as the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah"

October 8, 1974 - "God’s undeserved kindness and care are so great that he will bring back the people of Sodom by a resurrection"

June 1, 1988 - "It is apparent, then, that those whom God executed in those past judgments experienced irreversible destruction."

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