The 144 000 and the Large Crowd are t...

Since: Feb 09

Raleigh, NC

#21 Nov 17, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
John was on Patmos as he received this Revelation. How could he have measured the actual temple in Jerusalem?
When the angel measures the city in Revelation 21, how large was the city? Was it a literal city, or was this city symbolic in meaning?
He OBVIOUSLY measured it in vision.

The fact remains that at the time the temple in Jerusalem was still literally in tact.

John was told to measure it because it symbolized that while the literal temple would soon be decimated, spiritually it would not because a new Jerusalem would exist in heaven.

The Revelation prophecy was for the Jews. It followed in a long line of prophecies by God's prophets for the rebellious nation of Israel. Finally that executed the Son of the Living God and that sealed their fate as the generation that would be held solely responsible for all the blood spilled on earth since Abel. I didn't make that up. The Bible says it.

The book of Revelation shouts of a first century fulfillment. You are just not ready to listen. But you will. You won't be given a choice. I hope I'm there when you have to acknowledge this.

Since: Mar 09

United States

#22 Nov 17, 2012
I wouldn't say 144,000 people would be a large crowd...especially when Revelation says "A Great Crowd which no man can number".

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#23 Nov 17, 2012
CIA Free wrote:
<quoted text>
He OBVIOUSLY measured it in vision.
The fact remains that at the time the temple in Jerusalem was still literally in tact.
John was told to measure it because it symbolized that while the literal temple would soon be decimated, spiritually it would not because a new Jerusalem would exist in heaven.
The Revelation prophecy was for the Jews. It followed in a long line of prophecies by God's prophets for the rebellious nation of Israel. Finally that executed the Son of the Living God and that sealed their fate as the generation that would be held solely responsible for all the blood spilled on earth since Abel. I didn't make that up. The Bible says it.
The book of Revelation shouts of a first century fulfillment. You are just not ready to listen. But you will. You won't be given a choice. I hope I'm there when you have to acknowledge this.
You still have offered no proof that your theories of John receiving the Revelation took place before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E.

The Revelation is prophecy of the end times, in what John records as "the Lord's day". Much of the Revelation hasn't happened as of yet.

The Revelation prophecy is for the Israel of God, heavenly Jerusalem, and has nothing to do with the rejected natural nation of Israel.

Since: Feb 09

Raleigh, NC

#24 Nov 18, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
You still have offered no proof that your theories of John receiving the Revelation took place before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E.
Then WHAT temple was John told to measure? Answer the question.

Since: Feb 09

Raleigh, NC

#25 Nov 18, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
The Revelation is prophecy of the end times, in what John records as "the Lord's day".
But it was the end times for the Jews in the first century. There are no end time prophecies written for our day.

That WAS the Lord's Day when Christ returned to that first century generation for judgement in 70 AD. The prophet Daniel pointed to that time as when judgment would begin as well as the spiritual resurrection of the dead in the first century.(Dan. 11,12)
Richardnak wrote:
Much of the Revelation hasn't happened as of yet.
Quite the contrary. All of it has been fulfilled. Even the tent of God is with men today in the sense that they have all had their souls redeemed from oblivion by Jesus Christ. This now makes it possible for them to stand judgment for what they have done in this life.
Richardnak wrote:
The Revelation prophecy is for the Israel of God, heavenly Jerusalem, and has nothing to do with the rejected natural nation of Israel.
Revelation is God's rejection of earthly Jerusalem and acceptance of Jerusalem above in heaven. True, the Israel on earth today has no more special significance to God as it once did.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#26 Nov 18, 2012
CIA Free wrote:
<quoted text>
Then WHAT temple was John told to measure? Answer the question.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#27 Nov 18, 2012
CIA Free wrote:
<quoted text>
But it was the end times for the Jews in the first century. There are no end time prophecies written for our day.
That WAS the Lord's Day when Christ returned to that first century generation for judgement in 70 AD. The prophet Daniel pointed to that time as when judgment would begin as well as the spiritual resurrection of the dead in the first century.(Dan. 11,12)
<quoted text>
Quite the contrary. All of it has been fulfilled. Even the tent of God is with men today in the sense that they have all had their souls redeemed from oblivion by Jesus Christ. This now makes it possible for them to stand judgment for what they have done in this life.
<quoted text>
Revelation is God's rejection of earthly Jerusalem and acceptance of Jerusalem above in heaven. True, the Israel on earth today has no more special significance to God as it once did.
You have yet to offer any proof that John recieved the Revelation before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. Until then you are working with your own theory and opinion.

Since: Feb 09

Raleigh, NC

#28 Nov 18, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
So John was told to measure a person's temple?

Since: Feb 09

Raleigh, NC

#29 Nov 18, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
You have yet to offer any proof that John recieved the Revelation before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E.
Rev. 1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. for the appointed time is near.
----

The time statements refer to soon events of cataclysmic Jewish importance. If it was written in 96 AD, there are no events soon from that time that could even remotely fit. If, however, it was before 70 AD, then the destruction of Jerusalem rises to the occasion as both Jewish and cataclysmic. The time statements demand we look here.

2 - The second century Syrian version of the book has the title of "John the Evangelist in the Isle of Patmos, where he was thrown by Nero Caesar." Nero, of course, was dead by 68 AD.

3 - Some versions have a few manuscripts that have the number of the beast as 616 instead of the Hebrew 666.(You can find this stated in almost any Study Bible). What is shocking is that using gematria Caesar Nero's name would add up to 616 in those versions, but in Hebrew, 666. This is very strong evidence that Caesar Nero really was the one being referred to as the beast and that the change from 666 to 616 in some manuscripts was intentional for that very reason. It is nearly impossible to find another person's name in that time frame that would do this!

4 - According to the epistles to the churches, there were still Judaizers (Revelation 2:9; 3:9) presenting problems in the churches. This, would be ridiculous after 70 AD.

5 - The temple and the city were apparently still standing in Revelation 11, because John is sent to measure them. This would not be possible after 70 AD. And if John is referring to some rebuilt temple in the far distant future, and he is writing in 96 AD, then his complete silence about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD is deafening!

6 - There were "other apostles" still around according to Revelation 2:2. Tradition has it that all the apostles were dead before 70 AD and John was the only original surviving past that time.

7 - The 6th king in Revelation 17 is the one that persecutes the saints. Roman emperors are (1) Julius,(2) Augustus,(3) Tiberius,(4) Caligula,(5) Claudius, then (6) Nero. Nero was the first and only Roman Caesar of the Julian line to persecute Christians. Nero's death ended the Julian dynasty. The one ruling after him reigned only a little while .. Galba, 6 months. If the 6th king is indeed Nero, he would be the one that "now is" according to the prophecy, and this would date the writing before 68 AD when Nero supposedly committed suicide. Nero also persecuted Christians for 42 months as is stated in the prophecy.

8 - Caesar Nero's name in Hebrew gematria adds up to 666. Since this was written about soon events, no other person can be found within this time scope whose name fits this requirement and description. Especially none can be found in the soon future of 96 AD.

9 - What purpose would it serve for John to tell the first readers of his prophecy to "calculate" the number of the name of the beast if he was not to be born until 2000 years later? This would be completely ridiculous. This implies that the beast was living at the time of this writing, thus proving not necessarily the pre-70 AD writing, but definitely the "at hand" time statements of the book.

10 - The 7th king of Revelation 17 is not yet here. If Nero is the 6th, then the book was written before Galba, i.e. before 70 AD.

11 - In Revelation there seems to be only 7 churches in Asia . Historically, there seems to be many more than that after 70 AD as Christianity began to grow very rapidly.

12 - The incredible parallels of Matthew 24 and Revelation, which Jesus said would happen in "this generation" and "when ... Jerusalem (is) surrounded with armies". Most of that generation were dead in the time of 96 AD and Jerusalem was surrounded with armies in 70 AD.

Since: Feb 09

Raleigh, NC

#30 Nov 18, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
You have yet to offer any proof that John recieved the Revelation before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. Until then you are working with your own theory and opinion.
Need more proof?

Luke 21:
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations.
----

Now here's the clincher:

Luke 21: 24b
Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.-Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God

Rev. 11:
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
----

Ignore this proof if you wish.... but I have shown you convincing evidence from within the book of Revelation itself that it was a first century prophecy that was fulfilled in the first century.

The times of the Gentiles were a time, times and half a time. This equaled 42 months or 3.5 years or 1,260 days which was the exact amount of time it took the Romans to lay siege and destroy Jerusalem. Read the The Jewish Wars by the eye-witness historian Josephus. He confirms everything I just said.

Since: Feb 09

Raleigh, NC

#31 Nov 18, 2012
Still not convinced?

Jesus forever connected his second coming with the destruction of Jerusalem.

Matt. 24
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately.

“Tell us,” they said,“when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination [Roman army] that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.

18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.

19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!

20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

29“Immediately after the [great] distress of those days

30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
----

Jesus warned his apostles that that his return would occur immediately after the great distress or tribulation of the Jews by the Romans BEFORE their generation passed away.

Try to spin this anyway you like but it will never fit another time in the history of man. And there is no THIRD temple for the Romans to destroy in Jerusalem today.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#32 Nov 18, 2012
CIA Free wrote:
<quoted text>
So John was told to measure a person's temple?
The body of Jesus' chosen anointed followers, make up the temple.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#33 Nov 18, 2012
CIA Free wrote:
<quoted text>
Rev. 1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. for the appointed time is near.
----
The time statements refer to soon events of cataclysmic Jewish importance. If it was written in 96 AD, there are no events soon from that time that could even remotely fit. If, however, it was before 70 AD, then the destruction of Jerusalem rises to the occasion as both Jewish and cataclysmic. The time statements demand we look here.
All of the sources that I checked don't agree with your theory.

John was exiled to Patmos by the Roman emperor Domition. His rule was from 81 C.E. to 96 C.E.

That rules out your pre 70 C.E. date for the Revelation by John. It also rules out all of the rest of your theories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Patmos

Since: Feb 09

Raleigh, NC

#34 Nov 18, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
The body of Jesus' chosen anointed followers, make up the temple.
Sure, the new spiritual temple called New Jerusalem.

But that is not the temple that John was instructed to measure in chapter 11. It wasn't until later that an angel measured new, spiritual Jerusalem made up of Jesus' disciples.

Rev. 21:
2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

10 So he took me in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and he showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.

15 The angel who talked to me held in his hand a gold measuring stick to measure the city, its gates, and its wall.

16 When he measured it, he found it was a square, as wide as it was long. In fact, its length and width and height were each 1,400 miles.

17 Then he measured the walls and found them to be 216 feet thick(according to the human standard used by the angel).
----

These two temples are not to be confused. Why? Because Jesus said this also about the temple John was to measure

Rev. 11:
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
----

This completely rules out the idea that John was somehow measuring the spiritual temple of Christians. This was in direct reference to the city of Jerusalem and the 42 months or 3.5 years that Romans trampled that holy city where Christ had been killed.

Since: Feb 09

Raleigh, NC

#35 Nov 18, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
All of the sources that I checked don't agree with your theory.
John was exiled to Patmos by the Roman emperor Domition. His rule was from 81 C.E. to 96 C.E.
That rules out your pre 70 C.E. date for the Revelation by John. It also rules out all of the rest of your theories.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Patmos
But here's your problem: There was no persecution of Christians after 96 AD!

However, there is plenty of internal evidence that Christians were being severely persecuted and killed by the Romans within Revelation.

Since: Feb 09

Raleigh, NC

#36 Nov 18, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
The body of Jesus' chosen anointed followers, make up the temple.
More evidence that Revelation was written BEFORE 70 AD:

Rev. 16:
4 The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. 5 Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:

“You are just in these judgments,
you who are and who were, the Holy One,
because you have so judged;

6 for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets,
and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.”
----

Question: Who shed the blood of God's saints and prophets?

a) The United Nations
b) The Catholic church
c) The Watchtower Society
d) The Jews of the first century

Matt. 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.
----

How is it that you cannot see this? What sense would it make for Jesus to tell his apostles all these things and to remain awake for the signs if he already knew it wouldn't happen for 2,000 years?

Jesus would never do that. Revelation was revealed to the generation that it was meant for.
Predictoress

Middletown, NY

#37 Nov 19, 2012
Dalai Lama wrote:
144000 is the first 6 digits of Cayman Islands bank account of the governing body.
What are the remaining numbers? Must be billions of dollars there. Please also reveal the password to access these funds.

Since: Mar 09

United States

#38 Nov 19, 2012
144,000 is obviously a limited number. The Great Crowd is not, it is an unlimited number.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#40 Nov 19, 2012
CIA Free wrote:
<quoted text>
More evidence that Revelation was written BEFORE 70 AD:
Rev. 16:
4 The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. 5 Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:
“You are just in these judgments,
you who are and who were, the Holy One,
because you have so judged;
6 for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets,
and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.”
----
Question: Who shed the blood of God's saints and prophets?
a) The United Nations
b) The Catholic church
c) The Watchtower Society
d) The Jews of the first century
Matt. 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.
----
How is it that you cannot see this? What sense would it make for Jesus to tell his apostles all these things and to remain awake for the signs if he already knew it wouldn't happen for 2,000 years?
Jesus would never do that. Revelation was revealed to the generation that it was meant for.
Jesus' prophecies have a minor and a major fulfillment. The minor fulfillment was in 70 C.E. with the destruction of Jerusalem and it's temple.

The Revelation was presented in symbolic language or signified, as to what would occur. John says that by inspiration he came to be in the Lord's day, which would mean during the end times.

So the major fulfillment begins in "the Lord's Day". The destruction of Jerusalem certainly wasn't the Lord's day.

Since: Feb 09

Raleigh, NC

#41 Nov 20, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus' prophecies have a minor and a major fulfillment. The minor fulfillment was in 70 C.E. with the destruction of Jerusalem and it's temple.
The Revelation was presented in symbolic language or signified, as to what would occur. John says that by inspiration he came to be in the Lord's day, which would mean during the end times.
So the major fulfillment begins in "the Lord's Day". The destruction of Jerusalem certainly wasn't the Lord's day.
Yes, it was indeed the Lord's Day. But it takes eyes of faith to see it. The first century Christians had no trouble understanding this Revelation. They KNEW exactly what it meant having also the help of the holy spirit to teach them it's meaning.


When a divinely inspired book opens and states from the very beginning that it was written specifically for a certain group of people, you really should believe it and not doubt at all.

"To the Seven Congregations in the District of Asia." It really was written for those people, and it was for them to discern it's meaning. It's a mistake to suggest that this Revelation that was written for them, somehow applies to us today when many of the things it speaks of no longer exist such a the second temple in Jerusalem and the Roman Empire.

Also, there is no such thing as any prophecy of the Bible having a minor and a major fulfilment. That is purely a concoction manufactured by humans who lack understanding of when and how the prophecy was fulfilled.

Give a least one example of what you claim.

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