Unknown

Adelaide, Australia

#41 Nov 23, 2012
Mary MacLellan wrote:
<quoted text>
Then explain to me who this was please:
Genesis 17:1
When Abram got to be ninety nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to Abram and said to him: "I am God Almighty".
Joh_1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

This verse proves that no man has seen God. Even if you assume that Jesus is YHWH, it still creates a contradiction since no man has seen God. So the conclusion then is Abram saw neither the Father or the Son (based upon your own theology) since both are considered to be YHWH in your world view.

The correct interpretation of the verse comes from a Hebrew mind set known as 'Shaliah.' Though it doesn't specifically say that 'the LORD' in the verse is an agent of YHWH, this is the more preferred interpretation due to this law being throughout the Genesis account, and in general the bible. Plus we have a verse that plainly states that no man has seen God at any time.
Read below.

http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text...
Unknown

Adelaide, Australia

#42 Nov 23, 2012
red blood relative wrote:
.
of BEING yhwh???....... since when does anyone get to BE YHWH if they are not him?
The Messiah does.

Mat_28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
red blood relative wrote:
.... when are you going to realize you are just doing tricky talk.....
When are you going to realise that you're mind set is based upon Greek philosophy and metaphysics and not the bible.
red blood relative wrote:
the word of god is god, in the form of his word... its him........ yhwh does not share his position as almighty god with anyone but himself.
That's where you're wrong. The Messiah has been exalted to the highest position, at the right hand of YHWH.
red blood relative wrote:
god sends his holy spirit out, and he sends his word out, and they are him, not someone else.
I disagree.
red blood relative wrote:
none of the prophets of old claimed he BE yhwh.... nor did gabriel, nor did michael, nor did moses..... only god claims to BE YHWH himself.
I agree, since there is only 1 YHWH. I never said people claimed to be YHWH, nor did I say that the Messiah claims to be YHWH. What I am saying is that the Messiah has been exalted to the position of YHWH, to ACT as YHWH to the people as the only true YHWH's agent.

Since: Jan 12

United States

#43 Nov 23, 2012
Unknown wrote:
<quoted text>
The Messiah does.
Mat_28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
<quoted text>
When are you going to realise that you're mind set is based upon Greek philosophy and metaphysics and not the bible.
<quoted text>
That's where you're wrong. The Messiah has been exalted to the highest position, at the right hand of YHWH.
<quoted text>
I disagree.
<quoted text>
I agree, since there is only 1 YHWH. I never said people claimed to be YHWH, nor did I say that the Messiah claims to be YHWH. What I am saying is that the Messiah has been exalted to the position of YHWH, to ACT as YHWH to the people as the only true YHWH's agent.
amazing tricky talk!!!...... BEING YHWH is not the same thing as acting as his agent.... many messengers were appointed to bring messages, including the prophets and moses, but non of them claimed to BE YHWH...... you are telling me the messiah has authority to BE YHWH, but is not really him.

when will you realize that yhwh doesn't share his position with ANYONE but himself..... he alone is YHWH.
Unknown

Adelaide, Australia

#44 Nov 23, 2012
red blood relative wrote:
amazing tricky talk!!!...... BEING YHWH is not the same thing as acting as his agent...
Someone can be given power of attorney in modern day society, which means the one receiving that power can act as that person, without actually being that person.
Likewise Jesus is YHWH's agent, given the authority to act as YHWH, even though He is not YHWH.
red blood relative wrote:
many messengers were appointed to bring messages, including the prophets and moses, but non of them claimed to BE YHWH......
I never said any of them did. None of them were the son of YHWH in the same sense as Jesus. Neither did Jesus claim to be YHWH.
red blood relative wrote:
you are telling me the messiah has authority to BE YHWH, but is not really him. when will you realize that yhwh doesn't share his position with ANYONE but himself..... he alone is YHWH.
Explain this verse to me
Mat_28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Since YHWH is the only one who has the position of 'all power', how can it be the case that He shares it with the Messiah?
The position of being at the right hand of YHWH is the highest position possible, this position has been granted to the Messiah. This position or office consists of acting as YHWH, for example: judgment, raising the dead and directing YHWH's people etc.
When a being is called 'elohim' or 'theos' does it automatically make them YHWH?

Since: Jan 12

United States

#45 Nov 24, 2012
Unknown wrote:
<quoted text>
Someone can be given power of attorney in modern day society, which means the one receiving that power can act as that person, without actually being that person.
Likewise Jesus is YHWH's agent, given the authority to act as YHWH, even though He is not YHWH.
<quoted text>
I never said any of them did. None of them were the son of YHWH in the same sense as Jesus. Neither did Jesus claim to be YHWH.
<quoted text>
Explain this verse to me
Mat_28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Since YHWH is the only one who has the position of 'all power', how can it be the case that He shares it with the Messiah?
The position of being at the right hand of YHWH is the highest position possible, this position has been granted to the Messiah. This position or office consists of acting as YHWH, for example: judgment, raising the dead and directing YHWH's people etc.
When a being is called 'elohim' or 'theos' does it automatically make them YHWH?
1.... wrong.... humans can do a power of attorney and act FOR the person but also may not claim to BE the person.... they must always sign their own name, accompanied by the paper work to allow them to sign for the other person.
but yhwh does not share his name nor his position as god to anyone but himself..... he alone is yhwh.... he has made that clear many times.... he alone is yhwh.
his prophets never claimed to be yhwh... they spoke messages for him.

2... yes, the word of god and the holy spirit are his agents and may claim to be yhwh because they are him, they are not someone else.... gods word and spirit are sent out directly from his being and may become personified.... its him, yhwh.

3...all authority was given jesus as the word became flesh and poured out his blood to handle the plan of slavation for mankind.
yup..... even before that, the word of god was-is yhwh, and so was the holy spirit going to and fro over the earth.

you are just causing a division so that your members won't go to church.
Unknown

Adelaide, Australia

#46 Nov 24, 2012
red blood relative wrote:
1.... wrong.... humans can do a power of attorney and act FOR the person but also may not claim to BE the person....
I never said that Jesus claimed to BE YHWH, that is your position, not mine.

A power of attorney (POA) or letter of attorney is a written authorization to represent or act on another's behalf in private affairs, business, or some other legal matter. The person authorizing the other to act is the principal, grantor, or donor (of the power). The one authorized to act is the agent or attorney...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_attorne...

That's exactly what I mean. Jesus is YHWH's AGENT, He ACTS as YHWH. What you have done is misrepresented my position and changed the words 'act' to 'be', which is none other than a straw-man argument.
red blood relative wrote:
they must always sign their own name, accompanied by the paper work to allow them to sign for the other person.
but yhwh does not share his name nor his position as god to anyone but himself..... he alone is yhwh.... he has made that clear many times.... he alone is yhwh.
I agree that YHWH does not share His name and that He alone is YHWH. As for the 'position' comment. What we must do is clarify what we mean by 'position.' When I say that the Messiah has been exalted to the position of YHWH, I do not mean that the Messiah becomes YHWH, nor do I mean that the Messiah is greater than YHWH or that Messiah can be called YHWH. What I do mean is that the Messiah has been granted by YHWH to ACT as YHWH in many ways. These ways consists of judgment, raising the dead, having been granted all authority in heaven and on earth (anyone with all authority is the one who is in charge) and others. The way this is explained in the biblical sense is by the type or picture of Joseph and Pharaoh.

Gen 41:40 You shall be over my house, and all my people shall order themselves as you command. Only as regards the throne will I be greater than you."
Gen 41:41 And Pharaoh said to Joseph, "See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt."
Gen 41:42 Then Pharaoh took his signet ring from his hand and put it on Joseph's hand, and clothed him in garments of fine linen and put a gold chain about his neck.
Gen 41:43 And he made him ride in his second chariot. And they called out before him, "Bow the knee!" Thus he set him over all the land of Egypt.
Gen 41:44 Moreover, Pharaoh said to Joseph, "I am Pharaoh, and without your consent no one shall lift up hand or foot in all the land of Egypt."
Unknown

Adelaide, Australia

#47 Nov 24, 2012
red blood relative wrote:
his prophets never claimed to be yhwh... they spoke messages for him.
You seem to continue to misrepresent what I say. I have not said that they claimed to be YHWH, nor am I suggesting that Messiah claims to be YHWH.
red blood relative wrote:
2... yes, the word of god and the holy spirit are his agents and may claim to be yhwh because they are him,
Can you show me where the bible says that they are YHWH, and demonstrate that it means exactly that and not something else.
red blood relative wrote:
they are not someone else.... gods word and spirit are sent out directly from his being and may become personified.... its him, yhwh.
Something personified doesn't mean that they are the person they come from.
red blood relative wrote:
3...all authority was given jesus as the word became flesh and poured out his blood to handle the plan of slavation for mankind.
All authority was given to Him AFTER His death. Do you understand the idea of ALL AUTHORITY? Only YHWH has all authority, but He gave it to His Messiah to ACT on His behalf (refer to Joseph and Pharaoh).
red blood relative wrote:
yup..... even before that, the word of god was-is yhwh, and so was the holy spirit going to and fro over the earth.you are just causing a division so that your members won't go to church.
When the bible calls Satan 'theos' does that make Him YHWH?
When the bible calls the judges of Israel 'elohim' does that make them YHWH?
Unknown

Adelaide, Australia

#48 Nov 24, 2012
I decided to go back to the original post that started our discussion and can now see what started it. Here are our posts.
Unknown wrote:
Wether one is bending the knee to the Messiah or to YHWH, it is ultimately YHWH who is receiving the glory since the Messiah has been placed into the office of being YHWH.
red blood relative wrote:
of BEING yhwh???....... since when does anyone get to BE YHWH if they are not him?....
When I said 'office of being YHWH' I did not mean that the Messiah becomes YHWH or that He is the being of YHWH. What I mean by the phrase 'office of being YHWH' is that the Messiah ACTS as YHWH. The term 'office' can mean the following:

a position of duty, trust, or authority, especially in the government, a corporation, a society, or the like: She was elected twice to the office of president.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/office

What I mean by it then is that the Messiah is placed into the position of duty of being YHWH, namely, He acts as YHWH fulfilling YHWH's works and will.

Since: Jan 12

United States

#49 Nov 24, 2012
mr unknown, no where in the bible is anyone authorized to pretend to be yhwh himself.

you keep saying you agree that yhwh alone is yhwh, but then you do tricky talk explaining that others act as his agent, as illustrated like joseph and the pharoh.... joseph never claimed to be the pharoh.... no one called him pharoh.

yhwh appeared to abraham in the form of a human messenger-angel who claimed to be yhwh himself, and spoke in the first person of yhwh, as abraham addressed him as yhwh.

no one called joseph PHAROH.

none of the prophets of old claimed to be yhwh himself, and the kings didn't address them as yhwh, and they didn't speak in the first person of yhwh.

there is only one reason a messenger from god claims to be yhwh himself, and the answer is that he IS YHWH in the form of the word messenger , or the holy spirit messenger.... they are all yhwh himself, and are not pretending when they claim to be yhwh.

yhwh sends part of himself out in the form of whatever he wishes.... its his nature.

you seem to hate his nature and ability to part himself out in various forms, such as the comforter, or the word becoming flesh.
Unknown

Adelaide, Australia

#50 Nov 25, 2012
red blood relative wrote:
mr unknown, no where in the bible is anyone authorized to pretend to be yhwh himself.
Once again you misrepresent what I have said. No where did I mention anything about pretending to be someone. Jesus, as YHWH's agent, acts as YHWH. For example:

Joh_5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

That is just one aspect of Him being YHWH's agent.
red blood relative wrote:
you keep saying you agree that yhwh alone is yhwh, but then you do tricky talk explaining that others act as his agent, as illustrated like joseph and the pharoh.... joseph never claimed to be the pharoh.... no one called him pharoh.
Again you have misrepresented me. I did not say that Jesus claims to be YHWH, what I am saying is that Jesus is YHWH's agent, as His agent He ACTS as YHWH without being or being called YHWH.
red blood relative wrote:
yhwh appeared to abraham in the form of a human messenger-angel who claimed to be yhwh himself, and spoke in the first person of yhwh, as abraham addressed him as yhwh.
This is none other than the Shaliah. Read the following PDF:
red blood relative wrote:
no one called joseph PHAROH.
PLEASE STOP MISREPRESENTING ME. I'm not claiming that Jesus should be called YHWH.
red blood relative wrote:
none of the prophets of old claimed to be yhwh himself, and the kings didn't address them as yhwh, and they didn't speak in the first person of yhwh.
Refer to above point. Regarding the first person concept, many have spoken as YHWH without being YHWH. Read the PDF in this post.

http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text...
red blood relative wrote:
there is only one reason a messenger from god claims to be yhwh himself, and the answer is that he IS YHWH in the form of the word messenger , or the holy spirit messenger....
That is not true. Read the PDF.
red blood relative wrote:
they are all yhwh himself, and are not pretending when they claim to be yhwh.
yhwh sends part of himself out in the form of whatever he wishes.... its his nature.
you seem to hate his nature and ability to part himself out in various forms, such as the comforter, or the word becoming flesh.
Don't make assumptions about my life. We are here to discuss the bible, not judge each other.

There are no 'parts' of YHWH, He is indivisible.
UNchained

Kingsport, TN

#51 Nov 25, 2012
red blood relative wrote:
they are all yhwh himself, and are not pretending when they claim to be yhwh.
yhwh sends part of himself out in the form of whatever he wishes.... its his nature.
you seem to hate his nature and ability to part himself out in various forms, such as the comforter, or the word becoming flesh.
Unknown wrote:
<quoted text>
There are no 'parts' of YHWH, He is indivisible.
The Bible speaks of God's presence in two major ways...
in space and in relationships.
Theologians used the term omnipresence, derived from Latin, to speak of God's presence everywhere in all the world's space.
Moses experienced that presence on a wilderness mountain (Exodus 3:1); Isaiah, in the Jerusalem Temple (Isaiah 6:1); and Paul, on an international highway (Acts 9:1). Most often the Bible speaks in terms of God being present in relationships. He called Israel to be His people (Exodus 19:3-6). He appeared to Elijah in a “still, small voice”(1 Kings 19:12).

Most of all God appeared Person to person in the human flesh of His Son Jesus.

The personal presence of God in Jesus Christ is the central and normative source of knowledge about God. Christ is known today through the witness of inspired Scripture and through the personal witness of the Holy Spirit. Still, what is revealed is the mystery of Christ. Even as it is revealed, God's revelation in Jesus Christ remains mysterious (Romans 16:25-26; Ephesians 3:1-10; Colossians 1:24-27; Colossians 4:2-4). Faith believes that what remains hidden in mystery is totally consistent with what is revealed in Christ.

Since: Jan 12

United States

#52 Nov 25, 2012
unknown, i'm not misrepresenting anything you said, you are just lying and doing a tricky side step.

the messenger that appeared to moses claimed to be yhwh himself many times and spoke in the first person,...end of story.... moses addressed him as god almighty.

claiming all the agents of god do that, is blasphemy...... moses himself, a chief agent of god never tried that stunt.... sheesh,.. he even got reproved for saying "must i bring water forth out of this rock".

micheal never did that, gabriel never did that, none of the prophets of old ever claimed to be yhwh himself.

stop doing tricky talk......... god can send his holy spirit out any time he feels like it in any form, and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
if you keep blaspheming, you are going to end up in the lake of fire.

Since: Aug 10

Blairgowrie, UK

#53 Nov 26, 2012
Unknown wrote:
The Son never appeared in the OT and spoke
Mary MacLellan wrote:
Then explain to me who this was please:
Genesis 17:1
When Abram got to be ninety nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to Abram and said to him: "I am God Almighty".
Unknown wrote:
The correct interpretation of the verse comes from a Hebrew mind set known as 'Shaliah.' Though it doesn't specifically say that 'the LORD' in the verse is an agent of YHWH, this is the more preferred interpretation due to this law being throughout the Genesis account, and in general the bible.
I understand that the first 'Shaliah' mentioned in the written Torah is said to be Eliezer, the servant sent by Abraham to find a wife for Isaac.

When Abraham sent his servant as his shalia or agent to find a wife for Isaac, did he introduce himself with the words "I am Abraham"?

Not at all. He introduced himself with the words "I am Abraham’s servant."

So your argument is unconvincing.

Why could this one who says "I am God Almighty" not be the Logos, the Word of God, speaking the words of God?

After all, the apostle John says "the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has revealed God to us." (John 1:18)
Unknown

Adelaide, Australia

#54 Nov 26, 2012
Mary MacLellan wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
I understand that the first 'Shaliah' mentioned in the written Torah is said to be Eliezer, the servant sent by Abraham to find a wife for Isaac.
When Abraham sent his servant as his shalia or agent to find a wife for Isaac, did he introduce himself with the words "I am Abraham"?
Not at all. He introduced himself with the words "I am Abraham’s servant."
So your argument is unconvincing.
Why could this one who says "I am God Almighty" not be the Logos, the Word of God, speaking the words of God?
After all, the apostle John says "the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has revealed God to us." (John 1:18)
There are many examples of the Shaliah in the bible. Just because you mention a servant of Abraham doesn't disprove anything. The book of Hebrews states that God didn't use His Son to speak in the OT, He was used in the NT. Furthermore, no one has ever seen God, according to John, and since you believe Logos is God, the logical conclusion is that no one has seen Him in the OT in a pre-existent form.

I continue to post the Shaliah PDF for people to read. Is anyone reading it or are you simply commenting based upon a lack of understanding on this subject?

Since: Jan 12

United States

#55 Nov 26, 2012
red blood relative wrote:
unknown, i'm not misrepresenting anything you said, you are just lying and doing a tricky side step.
the messenger that appeared to moses claimed to be yhwh himself many times and spoke in the first person,...end of story.... moses addressed him as god almighty.
claiming all the agents of god do that, is blasphemy...... moses himself, a chief agent of god never tried that stunt.... sheesh,.. he even got reproved for saying "must i bring water forth out of this rock".
micheal never did that, gabriel never did that, none of the prophets of old ever claimed to be yhwh himself.
stop doing tricky talk......... god can send his holy spirit out any time he feels like it in any form, and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
if you keep blaspheming, you are going to end up in the lake of fire.
what happened, unkown?....... when gabriel shows up with a message from god he claims to be gabriel with a message from god.
..... when michael shows up, he identifies himself as micheal.

when the messenger at the buning bush showed up, he identified himself as yhwh himself, countless times, the almighty god, the i am, i will prove to be who i prove to be, the creator...... and moses didn't call him gabriel nor micheal, moses hid his face from the true god.

did daniel hide his face from gabriel?

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#56 Nov 26, 2012
Unknown wrote:
<quoted text>
.......
I continue to post the Shaliah PDF for people to read. Is anyone reading it or are you simply commenting based upon a lack of understanding on this subject?
Hi Unknown

Yes, I have read the article you have cited and found it very interesting. Below are some partial quotes from articles on the word “Shaliah” and the word “Apostle” for your perusal and comment. http://www.shaliahministries.org/why-shaliah/

What is Shaliah?

The word shaliah is the Aramaic equivalent of the Greek word "apostolos" from which we get the word apostle.

Aramaic was the language that Jesus spoke so it is highly likely that when he commissioned the disciples as apostles in Luke 6:13 the word He may have used was shaliah.

The concept of a shaliah was well established in the first-century Jewish culture. A shaliah was an official of the Sanhedrin - the ruling council of Israel and as an ambassador, emissary or exercised the full rights and authority of the Sanhedrin. When he spoke, he spoke for them with their full authority. He was given the same respect and deference as the Sanhedrin however he never delivered his own message - only that of the group he represented.
Some prominent rabbis had their own shaliah or "sent ones" who taught their message and represented them with their full authority. Even the Jewish Mishnah ( a collection of oral traditions originally conceived as a commentary on the Law) recognized the role of the shaliah. It says, "The one sent by the man is as the man himself".

The first reference to a shaliah is in the book of Genesis where Abraham sends his servant (shaliah) to secure a wife for Isaac.
Thus the nature of the office of shaliah was well understood by the Jewish people and it is highly likely that it was in this context that Jesus identified Himself as being sent from God the Father in His full authority and power and then likewise sent out His followers in His full authority and power to deliver and demonstrate the gospel.

John 20:20-21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit."

The interesting part is the words “has sent me:” and “I am sending you” in John 20:20-21 as these are the words Jesus frequently used. This quote from this article on Fiduciary Duty and its ancient roots is instructive. http://www.fi360.com/main/pdf/10competition_s...

“In the Jewish law of agency, the person who is serving another as an agent is known as Shaliah, or “one who is sent,” and the person who is sending Shaliah is known as the Sholeah, or “one who sends.” The agency relationship is known as Shelihut.”

This answer from a Yahoo post is instructive: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index...

"Agent (Heb. Shaliah): The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum,'a person's agent is regarded as the person himself'."--R. J. Z. Werblowski and Geoffrey Wigoder, The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion.

A saying of the Rabbis was: "'The emissary of a King is as the King himself.'

"One of the important distinctions to be made is between legal identity and ontological identity. A legal agent is identical legally to the principal who sent him even though the principal and agent are ontologically different people. Suppose, for instance, that the queen of England (a principal) appoints an ambassador (a legal agent) to negotiate with the president of the USA. Even if the ambassador is a male, 21 years old, 6ft feet tall, and weighs 250lbs., legally he is identical to the queen. I.e. he is legally the queen. Anything he negotiates is done in the name of the queen... It has all the authority of the crown behind it. Rabbis said the man's agent was like the man himself. Legally, this large, young, male is the small, female queen. A legal agent is an apostle." — George Wesley Buchanan”

All the Best

Dave
Unknown

Adelaide, Australia

#57 Nov 26, 2012
red blood relative wrote:
<quoted text>
what happened, unkown?....... when gabriel shows up with a message from god he claims to be gabriel with a message from god.
..... when michael shows up, he identifies himself as micheal.
when the messenger at the buning bush showed up, he identified himself as yhwh himself, countless times, the almighty god, the i am, i will prove to be who i prove to be, the creator...... and moses didn't call him gabriel nor micheal, moses hid his face from the true god.
did daniel hide his face from gabriel?
That's because He is Gabriel. A Shaliah is not ontologically YHWH byt legally YHWH. As has been mentioned in the above post. With regards to Moses and the burning bush, read the following.

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Notice that it states 'the angel of the LORD appeared' but then later on it says the following.

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

The angel of the LORD is speaking for YHWH as YHWH's agent (shaliah) and can therefore be in the legal sense YHWH without ontologically being YHWH.

The NT also teaches that it was the shaliah of YHWH in the bush and not literally YHWH.

Act 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.

This principle is taught throughout scripture. When scripture teaches that Jesus is 'theos' it is not saying that He is YHWH. It is actually teaching that Jesus is a Shaliah, an agent of YHWH, who can legally be called 'theos' though not ontologically be called 'theos.' The point being is that Jesus ACTS on YHWH's behalf as YHWH, in a legal sense (not ontological), as all authority has been given to Him by YHWH.

Since: Jan 12

United States

#58 Nov 27, 2012
Unknown wrote:
<quoted text>
That's because He is Gabriel. A Shaliah is not ontologically YHWH byt legally YHWH. As has been mentioned in the above post. With regards to Moses and the burning bush, read the following.
Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Notice that it states 'the angel of the LORD appeared' but then later on it says the following.
Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
The angel of the LORD is speaking for YHWH as YHWH's agent (shaliah) and can therefore be in the legal sense YHWH without ontologically being YHWH.
The NT also teaches that it was the shaliah of YHWH in the bush and not literally YHWH.
Act 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
This principle is taught throughout scripture. When scripture teaches that Jesus is 'theos' it is not saying that He is YHWH. It is actually teaching that Jesus is a Shaliah, an agent of YHWH, who can legally be called 'theos' though not ontologically be called 'theos.' The point being is that Jesus ACTS on YHWH's behalf as YHWH, in a legal sense (not ontological), as all authority has been given to Him by YHWH.
wrong again.... your source has no authority and doesn't apply to yhwh..... while it may hold true for men and kings and embassadors, god does not share his position with anyone and authorize anyone to claim to be him HIMSELF.

yes, god has agents who bring messages for him such as gabriel and micheal, and the prophets of old, even moses...... but if you'll notice, NONE of those high ranking messengers ever DARED claim to be GOD HIMSELF, and moses himself, after all the AUTHORITY god gave him, even as the scriptures say, god spoke directly to moses,.... moses was REPROVED for even suggesting he brought water forth from the rock.

now you are claiming some lessor free willed angels had authority to claim to BE GOD HIMSELF, and record it in scripture?.... that is blasphemy.

god is able to send his word out, and his holy spirit out in ANY form he wishes, even a flaming fire messenger..... that is the what bothers you.
he sends a part of himself out to speak for himself, and when he does, ITS HIM, not a free willed angel like gabiel or michael, or a prophet......its a flame of fire messenger in any form he wishes.... HIM HIMSELF in a lesser form to avoid having you expire.

now please stop comparing what men do, to what god does.
please stop BLASPHEMING..... next thing you know you'll be claiming the flames of fire sitting on top of those in the upper room as they spoke in tongues were not the holy spirit, but instead some free willed angel...... you BLASPHEMERS hate the holy spirit, and love false prophets and lies.

Since: Aug 10

Blairgowrie, UK

#59 Nov 28, 2012
Unknown wrote:
The book of Hebrews states that God didn't use His Son to speak in the OT, He was used in the NT.
Does the book of Hebrews state that God didn't use His Logos to speak in the OT?

Since: Aug 10

Blairgowrie, UK

#60 Nov 28, 2012
red blood relative wrote:
when the messenger at the buning bush showed up, he identified himself as yhwh himself, countless times, the almighty god, the i am, i will prove to be who i prove to be, the creator......
Exactly. And I am convinced that was the Logos, the Word of God.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

1 John 1:1,2
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life — the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us

John says that the Word of God is eternal and was with the Father from the beginning and is God

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