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UNchained

Kingsport, TN

#1 Nov 12, 2012
To whom does the Greek word "Kurios" refer to in the New testament?

Since: Aug 10

Blairgowrie, UK

#2 Nov 12, 2012
Mostly to Jesus.

Sometimes Jehovah when quoting from the Old Testament (although the Logos is the Jehovah who appears and speaks in the Old Testament).

Sometimes to humans.
UNchained

Kingsport, TN

#3 Nov 12, 2012
Mary MacLellan wrote:
Mostly to Jesus.
Sometimes Jehovah when quoting from the Old Testament (although the Logos is the Jehovah who appears and speaks in the Old Testament).
Sometimes to humans.
Thank you, Mary.

To whom does the Greek word "Kurios" refer to in Romans 14:11?

Since: Aug 10

Blairgowrie, UK

#4 Nov 12, 2012
UNchained wrote:
Thank you, Mary.
To whom does the Greek word "Kurios" refer to in Romans 14:11?
Romans 14:11
It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord [Kurios],
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

Seems to be a quotation from Isaiah 45:23

"I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath."

The One speaking in Isaiah 45:23 is the One who says "I am God, and there is no other."

So Kurios here is the one true God, Jehovah, the One who says

Isaiah 45:21
"And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me."

I just love a good Bible Study
UNchained

Kingsport, TN

#5 Nov 12, 2012
Mary MacLellan wrote:
<quoted text>
Romans 14:11
It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord [Kurios],
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”
Seems to be a quotation from Isaiah 45:23
"I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath."
The One speaking in Isaiah 45:23 is the One who says "I am God, and there is no other."
So Kurios here is the one true God, Jehovah, the One who says
Isaiah 45:21
"And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me."
I just love a good Bible Study
Something is out of kilter because we know that the bible does not contradict itself.

Please explain this...

Philippians 2:9-11

9 For this reason God also highly exalted Him
and gave Him the name that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow—
of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth—
11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

“Truth is where you find it”

Since: Jun 11

Milton, PA

#6 Nov 12, 2012
well, as Alice said, "kurious-er and kurious-er.

sidgi

Since: Aug 10

Blairgowrie, UK

#7 Nov 13, 2012
UNchained wrote:
Something is out of kilter because we know that the bible does not contradict itself.
Please explain this...
Philippians 2:9-11
The Logos is the Jehovah in the Old Testament who appeared and spoke to the faithful men of old.

But the Logos did not think that this equality with God was something to be clung onto at all costs but, instead, the Logos gave up His divine privileges and took on the position of a slave, born as a human being named Jesus.

In obedience to His Father, He humbled himself further and suffered a criminal’s death to save mankind.

Therefore, God the Father took Him from this lowest of low positions and elevated Him to the place of highest honour, giving him the name above all other names, so that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
UNchained

Kingsport, TN

#8 Nov 13, 2012
Mary MacLellan wrote:
<quoted text>
The Logos is the Jehovah in the Old Testament who appeared and spoke to the faithful men of old.
But the Logos did not think that this equality with God was something to be clung onto at all costs but, instead, the Logos gave up His divine privileges and took on the position of a slave, born as a human being named Jesus.
In obedience to His Father, He humbled himself further and suffered a criminal’s death to save mankind.
Therefore, God the Father took Him from this lowest of low positions and elevated Him to the place of highest honour, giving him the name above all other names, so that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I take it that you agree that Jesus is God...

Christ will be the judge, and he has both authority and ability to determine men's eternal state according to their works, and before him we shall stand as persons to be tried, and to give up an account, expecting our final doom from him, which will be eternally conclusive. To illustrate this (Romans 14:11), he quotes a passage out of the Old Testament, which speaks of Christ's universal sovereignty and dominion, and that established with an oath: As I live (saith the Lord), every knee shall bow to me. It is quoted from Isaiah 45:23. There it is, I have sworn by myself; here it is, As I live. So that whenever God saith As I live, it is to be interpreted as swearing by himself; for it is God's prerogative to have life in himself: there is a further ratification of it there, The word is gone out of my mouth. It is a prophecy, in general, of Christ's dominion; and here very fully applied to the judgment of the great day, which will be the highest and most illustrious exercise of that dominion. Here is a proof of Christ's Godhead: he is the Lord and he is God, equal with the Father. Divine honour is due to him, and must be paid. It is paid to God through him as Mediator. God will judge the world by him, Acts 17:31. The bowing of the knee to him, and the confession made with the tongue, are but outward expressions of inward adoration and praise. Every knee and every tongue, either freely or by force.(Matthew Henry)

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#9 Nov 13, 2012
UNchained wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you, Mary.
To whom does the Greek word "Kurios" refer to in Romans 14:11?
whenever the scriptures says "for it is written" more than likely it's quoting the Hebrew scriptures. In this case Paul is quoting Isaiah 49:18 where the tetragrammaton YHWH is present. Therefore Romans is referring to the Father, YHWH - Jehovah, and not the son Jesus. Jesus is not Jehovah.
UNchained

Kingsport, TN

#10 Nov 13, 2012
To whom does the Greek word "Kurios" refer to in Romans 14:11?
Duh-boy wrote:
<quoted text>
whenever the scriptures says "for it is written" more than likely it's quoting the Hebrew scriptures. In this case Paul is quoting Isaiah 49:18 where the tetragrammaton YHWH is present. Therefore Romans is referring to the Father, YHWH - Jehovah, and not the son Jesus. Jesus is not Jehovah.
For it is written. This passage is recorded in Isaiah 45:23. It is not quoted literally, but the sense is preserved. In Isaiah there can be no doubt that it refers to Jehovah.
The speaker expressly calls himself JEHOVAH, the name which is appropriate to God alone, and which is never applied to a creature, Isaiah 45:18,21, Isaiah 45:24,25.
In the place before us, the words are applied by Paul expressly to Christ.
Compare Romans 14:10.
This mode of quotation is a strong incidental proof that the apostle regarded the Lord Jesus as Divine. On no other principle could he have made these quotations.

Since: Aug 10

Blairgowrie, UK

#11 Nov 13, 2012
Duh-boy wrote:
Paul is quoting Isaiah 49:18
Isaiah 49:18 NWT
Raise your eyes all around and see. They have all of them been collected together. They have come to you.“As I am living,” is the utterance of Jehovah,“with all of them you will clothe yourself just as with ornaments, and you will bind them on yourself like a bride.

Sorry, can't see what you are getting at.

Are you sure you have the right verse, or am I being stupid?

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#12 Nov 13, 2012
Mary MacLellan wrote:
<quoted text>
Isaiah 49:18 NWT
Raise your eyes all around and see. They have all of them been collected together. They have come to you.“As I am living,” is the utterance of Jehovah,“with all of them you will clothe yourself just as with ornaments, and you will bind them on yourself like a bride.
Sorry, can't see what you are getting at.
Are you sure you have the right verse, or am I being stupid?
This is the part that is quoted: ".“As I am living,” is the utterance of Jehovah,“"

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#13 Nov 13, 2012
UNchained wrote:
To whom does the Greek word "Kurios" refer to in Romans 14:11?
<quoted text>
For it is written. This passage is recorded in Isaiah 45:23. It is not quoted literally, but the sense is preserved. In Isaiah there can be no doubt that it refers to Jehovah.
The speaker expressly calls himself JEHOVAH, the name which is appropriate to God alone, and which is never applied to a creature, Isaiah 45:18,21, Isaiah 45:24,25.
In the place before us, the words are applied by Paul expressly to Christ.
Compare Romans 14:10.
This mode of quotation is a strong incidental proof that the apostle regarded the Lord Jesus as Divine. On no other principle could he have made these quotations.
Jesus is indeed divine. But it's is simply not logical to conclude that Paul would take verses from the Hebrew scriptures, which clearly apply to YHWY, and apply them to Jesus.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#14 Nov 13, 2012
*YHWH

Since: Aug 10

Blairgowrie, UK

#15 Nov 13, 2012
Duh-boy wrote:
This is the part that is quoted: ".“As I am living,” is the utterance of Jehovah,“"
Got it.

So Romans 14:11 is a quotation from Isaiah 49:18 and 45:23

Romans 14:11
It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord [Kurios],(Jehovah in Isaiah 49:18)

‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”(Isaiah 45:23)

So the Greek word 'Kurios' in Romans 14:11 refers to Jehovah.

So every knee will bow before Jehovah and every tongue will acknowledge that Jehovah is God.

Not forgetting that the Logos is the one called Jehovah in the Old Testament, who appeared and spoke to the faithful men of old, I think Paul is saying that the world will have to acknowledge Jesus as being the Jehovah who appears in the Old Testament.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#16 Nov 13, 2012
Mary MacLellan wrote:
<quoted text>
Got it.
So Romans 14:11 is a quotation from Isaiah 49:18 and 45:23
Romans 14:11
It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord [Kurios],(Jehovah in Isaiah 49:18)
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”(Isaiah 45:23)
So the Greek word 'Kurios' in Romans 14:11 refers to Jehovah.
So every knee will bow before Jehovah and every tongue will acknowledge that Jehovah is God.
Not forgetting that the Logos is the one called Jehovah in the Old Testament, who appeared and spoke to the faithful men of old, I think Paul is saying that the world will have to acknowledge Jesus as being the Jehovah who appears in the Old Testament.
I don't see that. There are many prophetic scriptures that refer to Jesus in the Hebrew scriptures/old testament and it is not logical to conclude that Jesus is YHWH in the Hebrew scriptures.

Since: Aug 10

Blairgowrie, UK

#17 Nov 13, 2012
Duh-boy wrote:
There are many prophetic scriptures that refer to Jesus in the Hebrew scriptures/old testament
Apart from prophecies about the future, which Scriptures refer to the Logos interacting with God's people in the Old Testament?

From what I have studied, it is my belief that it is the Logos who appears and speaks in the Old Testament, introducing Himself as Jehovah.



UNchained

Kingsport, TN

#18 Nov 13, 2012
Duh-boy wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus is indeed divine. But it's is simply not logical to conclude that Paul would take verses from the Hebrew scriptures, which clearly apply to YHWY, and apply them to Jesus.
For it is written:
As I live, says the Lord,
every knee will bow to Me,
and every tongue will give praise to God.
Romans 14:11

For this reason God also highly exalted Him
and gave Him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow —
of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth
Philippians 2:9-10

Duh-boy, why should we bow at Jesus' name rather than at the name of the Father?

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#19 Nov 13, 2012
Mary MacLellan wrote:
<quoted text>
Apart from prophecies about the future, which Scriptures refer to the Logos interacting with God's people in the Old Testament?
From what I have studied, it is my belief that it is the Logos who appears and speaks in the Old Testament, introducing Himself as Jehovah.
I wasn't referring to scriptures that refer to Jesus interacting with God's people. I was talking about prophecy regarding him in the Hebrew scriptures/old testament. For example, where he would be born, how he would be treated, die, etc.

Keep studying, because nothing is farther from the truth. Jesus never introduces himself as Jehovah.
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#20 Nov 13, 2012
Mary MacLellan wrote:
<quoted text>
Got it.
So Romans 14:11 is a quotation from Isaiah 49:18 and 45:23
Romans 14:11
It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord [Kurios],(Jehovah in Isaiah 49:18)
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”(Isaiah 45:23)
So the Greek word 'Kurios' in Romans 14:11 refers to Jehovah.
So every knee will bow before Jehovah and every tongue will acknowledge that Jehovah is God.
Not forgetting that the Logos is the one called Jehovah in the Old Testament, who appeared and spoke to the faithful men of old, I think Paul is saying that the world will have to acknowledge Jesus as being the Jehovah who appears in the Old Testament.
Amen!

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