Why Is the Ransom Sacrifice Not Enough?
Disciple

Anaheim, CA

#121 Oct 6, 2013
Sorry, I meant to say that :

Therefore the 144000,(there has 'always' been a fight between the Mormons and the Watchtower concerning who the 144000. The Mormons have 'always' taught that the 144000 represent them. We all know who the WT thinks they represent. In all 'reality,' we are told they are believing 'Jews.' Their sinister treachery of incerting words to change the meaning of passages is what they must do, to help them in their damnable hierarchy to keep as many as possible from partaking (during 'their version') of the Communion of the Lord's Supper.

The cults would teach anything as long as it gives them a control over it's converts and congregations.
little lamb

Collingwood, Australia

#122 Oct 6, 2013
Thirdwitness wrote:
<quoted text>
Can you answer Aneirin's questions?
Please repeat question...because reading some of these posts i see ones are confused with the covenant of Law transmitted by angels to Moses on mount Sinai..

and now the promise of a new covenant, because of a weakness of the flesh in carrying out Gods Law covenant, which he made with the whole nation.

And the covenant he made with Levi, for a Priesthood.

One is a covenant for all his people , and they were to obey his Laws

new covenant..writes his laws on our hearts and minds.

Covenant with levi was for acting as priests.. mediators between god and the people..by instructing them in the Law, and handling the utensils of god

The promise Jesus made alone with his Apostles to sit on thrones to judge [ not the world] but the twelve tribes of Israel
Tao itness

United States

#123 Oct 6, 2013
Brother P wrote:
<quoted text>
Nice to know someone's following along :)
someone has to!
Tao itness

United States

#124 Oct 6, 2013
brother the, I enjoy your post and your love for God and truth! I also have to thank you for recommending the Urantia Book! it actually got me to look at the gospel of Jesus in a different way. and actually opened up my mind to understand what the Covenant is and that God is inviting us to be calm his children! Now! once I realize this and proclaimed the good news of God inviting us to be his children I was born again! just like the Tao Te Ching got me back to reading the Bible after leaving the Watchtower and understanding the principles behind Jesus words, the ranch a buck opened my mind to a new paradigm of Christ message! I have asked God for this several times, and thought it was just an emotional experience some Christians had. but now I understand so much more of the Bible and what it is really saying! that is why the watchtower does not want anybody to read anything except their literature. it keeps you in a false paradigm e of salvation. it is so wonderful to have the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God and Christ within you it is beyond words!
Tao itness

United States

#125 Oct 6, 2013
that post was too brother P not brother the laughing out loud!
little lamb

Collingwood, Australia

#126 Oct 6, 2013
Both Thirdwitness..are lawless

because they are against Gods people obeying his Law

God saw in the first covenant of Law , that people could not obey his Law because of weakness of the flesh

So he promised a new covenant where he will write his Law on our hearts and minds.'

Why do Thirdwitness and Aneirin, fight so much against gods LAW being written in our hearts

there is only one reason..they are part of the man of LAWLESSNESS , that sits in the temple of God.

Jehovah God has it prophesied that he would

' magnify the Law.'
Tao itness

United States

#127 Oct 6, 2013
it still amazes me the power of the watchtower has over its followers to totally contradicts Scripture and for them to believe it! revelations chapter 19 says the great crowd is in heaven. The watchtower says they are angels. yes they are singing a song of salvation! Why would an angel's need to do this? also the great crowd in Revelation chapter 7 is in the temple of God and white robes serving him day and night. This is obviously the priesthood! But people will claim to be from the great crowd but not preists. I know four years they said the great crowd was serving and the court of the Gentiles which was not in the original temple plans! due to so many people realizing that this could not possibly be true, but they have now come up with some other reasoning as to why they are not preists.
Tao itness

United States

#128 Oct 6, 2013
but this was written during the 1st century when there was a large population of Jews in the Christian congregation, and you could not give them any other explanation except that was the priesthood being described!
Tao itness

United States

#129 Oct 6, 2013
little lamb, we do not know that they are lawless, they are definitely influenced by the man of lawlessness, but we cannot judge them. all we can do is try two shows scriptural reasoning and pray that their eyes will be opened! remember when you and I were under the double dealing divination of the watchtower, we would argue with anyone to defend their teachings. but we were not lawless we were merely misled.

Since: Aug 12

Stockport, UK

#130 Oct 6, 2013
Tao itness wrote:
brother the, I enjoy your post and your love for God and truth! I also have to thank you for recommending the Urantia Book! it actually got me to look at the gospel of Jesus in a different way. and actually opened up my mind to understand what the Covenant is and that God is inviting us to be calm his children! Now! once I realize this and proclaimed the good news of God inviting us to be his children I was born again! just like the Tao Te Ching got me back to reading the Bible after leaving the Watchtower and understanding the principles behind Jesus words, the ranch a buck opened my mind to a new paradigm of Christ message! I have asked God for this several times, and thought it was just an emotional experience some Christians had. but now I understand so much more of the Bible and what it is really saying! that is why the watchtower does not want anybody to read anything except their literature. it keeps you in a false paradigm e of salvation. it is so wonderful to have the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God and Christ within you it is beyond words!
I'm so glad that book helped you as it did me! The only reason why I'm interested in these topics is because it's one of the biggest stumbling blocks to a JW - literally a doctrine that teaches them to block out the Spirit of Truth and follow men instead, contrary to scripture (1 John 2:27). It de-spiritualizes the whole organisation - turning them into obeyers of law rather than God's spirit operating from within (1 Corinthians 3:16). That's the difference between the old covenant and the new one. They talk about walking by spirit all the time and yet do not depend upon it per ce, neither does their doctrine teach them to but rather depend on the "Faithful slave class" they made up from a twisted parable. It teaches them that they are NOT children, and not part of the flock Jesus referenced would become one (who ALSO would follow the Lamb where-ever he goes Revelation 14:4 and listen to his voice)...that truly is tragic. It's tragic not because I think they'll die or be punished, but because they're missing out on something wonderful right here and now. When it clicked with me, I too had that moment of being "born again" as you mentioned - for some people it's a gradual process, for others it's pretty sudden (that over-whelming feeling of love and acceptance from God). It's like something clicks inside and you see things more plainly (you see the whole picture better rather than just a jumble of words you've read 1000 times before but had no meaning). It continues on...

To show how I've changed I used to laugh at people who said stuff like I have done above ^^^ Being into psychology I would have put it down to people who've had some sort of mental breakdown and needed an escape to lift them up (make them feel special). I believed it was all based upon emotions and airy fairy rubbish. That's what the JWs teach you, which is why they even look at their own so called "anointed" with distrust and mystery.

Since: Aug 12

Stockport, UK

#131 Oct 6, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
CORRECTION:
Righting down the the Law is NOT what made Moses the Mediator of the Covenant.
Are you sure about that? There's no difference between teaching the law orally or writing it down (both lead to the same end), but I don't think that's your argument though is it?

Do you know what a mediator is? It's someone who acts as the in-between man. The middle man. The one who acts on another's behalf. Jesus acted on God's behalf for the sake of mankind. Moses acted on God's behalf for the Israelites. Moses was just the messenger.

Moses mediated the old law covenant (from God) to the people thus making them acceptable to God (but ultimately leading to Christ). The Israelites were too afraid of God, so Moses interjected on their behalf - thus becoming a mediator.

Or are you saying that salvation was through Moses (the man himself)? Did Moses offer himself up as a burnt offering?:)

As soon as you've cleared that up I'll go onto your two questions (which actually hinge on this very post).

Since: Aug 12

Stockport, UK

#132 Oct 6, 2013
Brother P wrote:
<quoted text>
The Israelites were too afraid of God, so Moses interjected on their behalf - thus becoming a mediator.
Meant to say "Moses interceded on their behald", not interjected

Since: Aug 12

Stockport, UK

#133 Oct 7, 2013
What Aneirin is trying to say is that MINISTERY (helping/serving - as did the priesthood) within the covenant can somehow be seperated from the covenant itself. However, the priestly duty was all PART of the covenant. Just as Jesus ministered to us (i.e. being the high priest) within the realms of the new covenant between us and God.

Notice God says that if you obey my commands THEN you will be blessed? Was he just speaking to the priesthood here? Or the nation in general?

The blood itself (as offered by the priests) is not enough to show ones allegiance to God. It's like claiming that it was ok to murder someone (against the law covenant) as long as the priest offered up the blood of your sacrifice to atone for this sin.

Likewise, the new covenant is the teachings of Jesus. His blood won't make up for willful disobedience to the covenant.

Ironically, this is almost 100% a JW teaching, just without acknowledging that the new covenant (with it's agreement, terms and conditions etc) is practically the whole of the Greek scriptures.

Since: Aug 12

Stockport, UK

#134 Oct 7, 2013
The sad thing is that all this is very simple yet has been made extremely complicated and cumbersome due to man made teachings (as did the Pharisees of Jesus' day). The Greek scriptures were written for YOU ("Joe blogs" JW), not just the brother or sister who sips wine and eats crackers :)

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#135 Oct 7, 2013
They don't realize that they have become just like the world, followers of men. Nowhere in the Scriptures has Jehovah required his people to put their full confidence in any man.(Ps. 146:3,4; Jer. 17:5; Ro. 3:4)

The GB likes to compare themselves to Moses, and that Jehovah required the people to listen to him and obey him; and most of the brothers in the congregations accept that. But Moses did not picture any governing body. He pictured Jesus, the greater Moses.(Heb. 1:1,2; 3:2-6) In wanting to compare themselves to Moses they have become just like Korah, Dathan and Abiram, who also persuaded others to follow them. But their end will be the same as those earlier rebels.

Since: Aug 12

Stockport, UK

#136 Oct 7, 2013
Brother P wrote:
The sad thing is that all this is very simple yet has been made extremely complicated and cumbersome due to man made teachings (as did the Pharisees of Jesus' day). The Greek scriptures were written for YOU ("Joe blogs" JW), not just the brother or sister who sips wine and eats crackers :)
Faith without action is dead (James 2:14-26). What kind of action? The same action that Jesus taught - the new covenant arrangement by God. Likewise, an Israelite couldn't willfully disobey the old law covenant but still expect to be forgiven by means of the priestly service of splattering blood on the alter. The blood SANCTIONED the covenant. The priest only did a service WITHIN the covenant arrangement.

The WHOLE of the law covenant (priests, sacrifices, laws etc) is what was supposed to make them acceptable to God. Without the law covenant (and obedience to such) it was impossible to be God's people. Likewise with the new covenant.

How can we be sure that the new covenant is contained in the Greek scriptures?

Well you'd have to ignore Jesus' words here for starters:

(Matthew 22:40) The entire law (covenant) and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments."

So if the old law covenant was supposed to promote love, what is the new covenant based upon? The same thing with emphasis on the heart...it's not written in stone (written commandments) but upon the heart (principles of active love):

(Hebrews 8:10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

(this prophecy extended to gentiles after Jesus - Romans 9:25-26)

(Hebrews 10:16-17)“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds,“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

(2 Corinthians 3:3) And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

(Ezekiel 11:19-20) And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

That is all the teachings of the Greek scriptures! Love thy neighbor as thyself etc. "Thou shalt not murder" (law covenant written on stone) becomes do not hate your brother (law covenant written within your heart/soul).

BOTH are types of covenant. BOTH require(d) following to show that you are God's holy people (Genesis 17:7-8, Titus 2:14). The difference between the two covenants is that the old one was faulty (Hebrews 8:8-9, 2 Corinthians 3:7-8)- it was based upon ritualism and national birth (1 Peter 1:23) rather than spirit, so therefore there was found reason for a new one based upon the heart (motivation/faith) of ANY man (Jew or Gentile), and one that didn't depend upon works (ritualism) but rather upon PERSONAL accountability (based upon principles of active faith vs tradition/rituals/customs that just distracted from God's real desire for us - e.g. "leave your gift at the alter and make peace with your brother") and INDIVIDUAL relationship with God (as apposed to just the NATION being in a "contract" with Him).

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#137 Oct 7, 2013
Brother P wrote:
What Aneirin is trying to say is that MINISTERY (helping/serving - as did the priesthood) within the covenant can somehow be seperated from the covenant itself. However, the priestly duty was all PART of the covenant.
As I have said before Jesus does not become a priest in the order of Aaron the covenant priest.

Jesus is a priest APART from the Law Covenant.

Jesus is a priest in the order of Melchizedek who existed BEFORE the Law Covenant and who is therefore EXTERNAL to the Law Covenant.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#138 Oct 7, 2013
Now so much ducking and diving and twisting and jiving is going down I an just going to have to answer my questions myself:

== 1) What does a Covenant Mediator do (as TAUGHT by the Law Covenant)?

# Moses negotiated the Law Covenant by receiving the terms and conditions from Jehovah God and taking those terms and conditions to the Israelite people in order to obtain their verbal agreement.

*** Gal 3:19 What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the seed should come to whom the promise has been made. It was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator.

*** Ex 19:3 Moses went up to God, and Jehovah called to him out of the mountain, saying, "This is what you shall tell the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:

*** Ex 19:4 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to myself.

*** Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice, and keep my covenant, then you shall be my own possession from among all peoples; for all the earth is mine;

*** Ex 19:6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel."

*** Ex 19:7 Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which Jehovah commanded him.

*** Ex 19:8 All the people answered together, and said, "All that Jehovah has spoken we will do." Moses reported the words of the people to Jehovah.

# Moses ratified the Law Covenant using sacrificed blood:

*** Exod 24:7 He took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people, and they said, "All that Jehovah has spoken will we do, and be obedient."

*** Exod 24:8 Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, "Look, this is the blood of the covenant, which Jehovah has made with you concerning all these words."

# So in his role as "mediator" Moses negotiated a contract between Israel and Jehovah God for Israel to produce a Kingdom of Priests.

.

== 2) What does a Priest do (as TAUGHT by the Law Covenant)?

# The priest performs sacrifices in order for Jehovah to FORGIVE the sins of the people:

*** Num 15:25 The priest shall make atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and they shall be forgiven; for it was an error, and they have brought their offering, an offering made by fire to Jehovah, and their sin offering before Jehovah, for their error:

*** Num 15:26 and all the congregation of the children of Israel shall be forgiven, and the stranger who lives as a foreigner among them...

==

As we can see Moses in his role as Covenant Mediator does NOT work to secure forgiveness of sins. It is the work of the PRIEST that absolves us of sin and NOT the Covenant Mediator.

So this TEACHES us that Jesus Christ's blood absolves us of sin through Christ's role as High Priest. It has nothing to do with his role as Covenant Mediator.

What Jesus does in his role as Covenant Mediator is deliver the terms of the agreement to those in the New Covenant (Obey Jesus faithfully until death to become a Kingdom Priest).

*** Rev 5:9,10 They sang a new song, saying, "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and redeemed us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation, and made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign on earth."

He also instituted a ritual whereby Christians can signify their PARTICIPATION in and AGREEMENT to the terms of the New Covenant:

*** 1 Cor 11:25 In the same way he also took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the New Covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink, in memory of me."

So you do NOT need to be in the New Covenant to have your sins forgiven.

What you need to do is exercise faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice in his capacity as HIGH PRIEST to absolve your sins.

“Life is short, enjoy life.:-).”

Since: Aug 13

Baghdad, Iraq

#139 Oct 7, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
Now so much ducking and diving and twisting and jiving is going down I an just going to have to answer my questions myself
Are you using your left or your right hand....?
:-P
Tao itness

United States

#140 Oct 7, 2013
the Old Covenant and hold Temple or arrangement was a shadow of things to come. you did not receive forgiveness without being under the law covenant. everyone in the nation came under the covenant and under the arrangement of the priesthood. and these were not just use a vast mixed company left with them out of Egypt and they came under the same exact law and perscription for sacrifices.. the priesthood although they had special duties came under the exact same law they just helped officiated. everyone that was a servant of God particle of the Passover not just the priesthood or just the Jews but everyone! there is no hand in the Old Testament that the New Covenant would be separated from the priestly duties. the Christian scriptures also give us know and that these are separate! and fact if you read Hebrews chapters 7 8 &9 like I was saying it even talks about forgiveness of all and that Jesus mediates this with the New Covenant! you simply want to read something else in the Bible because the watchtower says it is so! how many times do these false prophets half to lie and twist scripture until you see this is simply a way of them gaining control of God's people. the Passover was a prelude to the memorial. if only the so-called priesthood partook then that is the way it would have been in Israel! it is sad that you do not want to get the benefits of the New Covenant that you can get right now!

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