The Bible or The Watchtower Magazine...

The Bible or The Watchtower Magazine which do you Trust?

Posted in the Jehovah's Witness Forum

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colin

UK

#1 Mar 28, 2008
down through the ages people have had the scriptures to read for their spiritual food and for their edification why then when the watchtower Bible and Tract Society come along and proclaim that the watchtower magazines and the books that come from Brooklyn printing presses is to placed above the reading of the scriptures and as it has been shown that the watchtower magazines have been questionable down the ages which do you trust the most THE BIBLE which is Gods Inspired Word or the watchtower magazine written by man see below some quotes from the watchtower about their publications

Watchtower 8/15/1981 p. 29
They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago,

Watchtower 12/1/1981 p27
But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his “faithful and discreet slave,” made up of spirit-anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.

Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses 1939 p 85
It should be expected that the Lord would have a means of communicating to his people on the earth, and he has clearly shown that the magazine called The Watch Tower is used for that purpose.

"We have the opportunity to show love for our brothers who take the lead in the congregation or in connection with Jehovah's visible organization worldwide. This includes being loyal to "the faithful and discreet slave." (Matthew 24:45-47) Let us face the fact that no matter how much Bible reading we have done, we would never have learned the truth on our own." (The Watchtower, December 1, 1990, p. 19).

so is it the watchtower magazine or the BIBLE that you trust?

“Tight lines”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#2 Mar 28, 2008
colin wrote:
down through the ages people have had the scriptures to read for their spiritual food and for their edification why then when the watchtower Bible and Tract Society come along and proclaim that the watchtower magazines and the books that come from Brooklyn printing presses is to placed above the reading of the scriptures and as it has been shown that the watchtower magazines have been questionable down the ages which do you trust the most THE BIBLE which is Gods Inspired Word or the watchtower magazine written by man see below some quotes from the watchtower about their publications
Watchtower 8/15/1981 p. 29
They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago,
Watchtower 12/1/1981 p27
But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his “faithful and discreet slave,” made up of spirit-anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.
Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses 1939 p 85
It should be expected that the Lord would have a means of communicating to his people on the earth, and he has clearly shown that the magazine called The Watch Tower is used for that purpose.
"We have the opportunity to show love for our brothers who take the lead in the congregation or in connection with Jehovah's visible organization worldwide. This includes being loyal to "the faithful and discreet slave." (Matthew 24:45-47) Let us face the fact that no matter how much Bible reading we have done, we would never have learned the truth on our own." (The Watchtower, December 1, 1990, p. 19).
so is it the watchtower magazine or the BIBLE that you trust?
Both.

Now, would you agree that, down thru the ages, people have used the Bible to justify commiting all kinds of horrible acts against their fello man?
colin

Norwich, UK

#3 Mar 28, 2008
I agree that there are people that quote the scriptures but does that make them a christian just like the devil can quote scripture does that make him a christian ? No so there are people that are not christians that use the Bible to try to justify their goals and as it has already been pointed out many times on here and in the watchtower publications that they cannot be reliable its onlt the Word of God the Bible that is reliable
jace

Bethesda, MD

#4 Mar 28, 2008
"It is unlikely that someone who simply reads the Bible WITHOUT TAKING ADVANTAGE OF DIVINELY PROVIDED AIDS could discern the light."
(The Watchtower, May 1, 1992, pg. 31).

Just what are these so-called "divinely provided aids" that are necessary for us? Why, the Society's publications, of course!

#####

Many are aware that the Mormon faith proclaims that they too have Divinely Provided material other than the bible

now you see it for yourself , the WT claims that their Publications are Divinely Provided

It has often been said that the WT theology is NOT TOO WELL THOUGHT OUT as can be seen in this teaching here.

Critical thinking requires that one ask:

"How does ones writings get divinely provided status, UNLESS THE MATERIAL IS INSPIRED

so out one side of their mouth they will proclaim

"we have never said that our books are INSPIRED"

THEN OUT THE OTHEr SIDE they will say:

"these writings are Divinely Provided"

now if the jw makes the argument that WELL WE GOTS SOME SCRIPTURES quoted in the mateial so therefore it can be said to be divinely provided- if that is the argument, then any book at BARNES AND NOBLE in the religious section that has afew bible text thrown into the mix could get DIVINELY PROVIDED STATUS TOO i guess

wt theology has never been well thought out and the Writing dept guys typically make this same mistake all the time of not recalling or being aware of what has ALREADY BEEN STATED IN PRINT SO WHEN they say something it oftetimes contridicts other PUBLISHED STATEMENT OF FOOD FROM GOD-

colin

Norwich, UK

#5 Mar 28, 2008
good point jace
jace

Bethesda, MD

#6 Mar 28, 2008
Brazen and Arrogant statements like this do nothing to help the WT credibilty except among their followers. Such statements when read by serious students of the bible realize that you hve some guys out of New York City suffering from visions of granduer. Only a Fool who claims to be UNINSPIRED WOULD MAKE SUCH STATEMENTS BELOW:

“Respond to the directions of the organization as you would the voice oF GOD.“( Watchtower 6/15/1957, p. 370)

OR

"The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or any set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man's opinion is expressed in the Watchtower."

########

show this state statement to any of your co-workers, then hand them a WT publications and ask

do you beleive this claim made by the very guys who wrote this

Wt does what is called SELF-REFERENCE, they will actually recommed and commend THEMSELVES as noted above

anyone who has been involved in the publication of a journal or mag or newsletter knows how this takes place

eveyone is sitting around the conference table considering ideas and some fool at Bethel says

"We don't we say to our readers who are both jw and nonjw-:

“Respond to the directions of the organization as you would the voice oF GOD.“

I can't beleive that NOONE IN THE ROOM was like - "Ain't that a little over the top"
instead they must have been BACKSLAPPING AND GRINNING LIKE yea yea sounds good to me

or they were sitting around the conference room table and some said-

"Guys-- what do you think of this one-liner i came up with last night while i was sitting on the Throne in "The Can":

"The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or any set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man's opinion is expressed in the Watchtower."

you mean to tell me no one in the room was able to get enough votes from fellow writers, staff, GB to override that JACKA#@$ statement-

you mean there were not enough guys sitting around that table to say,

Well guys you do know that we are NOT INSPRIED AND WHAT WE WRITE merely reflects OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING OF THE MATTER

nope nope nope, not one SANE person around that table was able to get enough guys to see that such a statement reflects the mind of a Fool!!!!!!!!!
one
Topsy Cretts

Houston, TX

#7 Mar 28, 2008
Divinely provided= Spirit directed

Remember JW theology says that the FDS has been put over all of Jesus possesions.(Luke 12:42-44)(Matthew 24:45-47). If you beleive that Jesus is the head of the congregation and he has appointed this slave over his beleongings untill he returns then you can understand why JW say it is divinely provided. We beleive that spiritual food at the proper time is directed by Jesus spirit. does this mean the WTS editor or the GB always follow that spirit? No. But Jesus clearly pointed out in scripture he would refine and cleanse (Daniel 12:3-4, 9-10, Malachi 3:1-4). Also, I beleive there are things that will never be quite right or perfect because then teh decision would just be too easy for us to make. After all what is going to be tested in the end? Our knowledge? or Our FAITH? Jesus is looking for humble, faithfull sheep willing to be directed by him. Are you one of those?

Matthew 24:45-47

"Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.

You know the JW believe that the FDS is the 144,000 represented by teh GB. Jesus himself said that he would appoint this FDS over all his possesions, and that he would appoint this FDS over his domestics to give them thier food at the proper time. So from JW perspective the FDS is serving as a steward (Luke 12:42).

A steward is someone that takes care of his master's estate while he is gone. So this steward is given much power. Some of that power is to act on its initiative to provide for the master's beleongings. However since he was appointed by his master, and his master gave that trust into his hands then one could say that what the Steward says represents what teh Master says. Now this is not to say that the Steward is teh same as teh master (you guys are gong to say I am equating the FDS with Jesus) but teh Steward is given much freedom while the master is gone.

Now, what a good and faitfull stewrad or slave does is try to do everything as his master would do while he is gone. Since this steward cannot directly communicate with teh master then this steward must go back over what he knows about his master. We have the bible to go back over today. The FDS represented by teh GB study teh bible diligently, try to figure out what the master (Jesus) would do, and try to keep any of their actions in harmony with the past actions of their master. I beleive the FDS does this today.

A steward would not do everything exactly as the master would do, and he might even make mistakes. However, since the "master's belongings" are given to this FDS or Steward then this shows that the Master approves of how this FDS goes about running his estate and providing for his belongings. So, from the JW point of view we beleive that Jesus has entrusted this FDS to make sure his belongings are taken care of.

So since this FDS is appointed by Jesus, who is divine and the head of the Christian congregation, then this slaves actions could be described as approved or guided by his master. Does teh GB do it perfectly, no! Do they try to do everything based on the Bible. I say yes! They do try to do thier best to do everything in harmony with Bible principles. Do they ask for guidabce through the Holy Spirit. Absolutetly! Do they always follow that guidance? Probably not!

Many in teh biblical past have been guided by spirit and chosen not to follow it.(See Paul, Moses, Aaron, David, Jesus Disciples, Nathan)So we have a human expectation sometimes that is not met by reality. Will this FDS get everything right? No! Would any steward run everything just as the Master did? No! But they would do thier best.

“Jesus is Lord”

Since: Mar 08

Birmingham UK

#8 Mar 29, 2008
So we have a human expectation sometimes that is not met by reality. Will this FDS get everything right? No! Would any steward run everything just as the Master did? No! But they would do thier
best.

Interesting thought so what your telling me then is that its ok for the watchtower Bible and tract society to proclaim that they are the only ones that have the TRUTH yet it may not be the truth at the end of the day

I asked the question which do you trust the watchtower magazine or the BIBLE ?

by your answer you have cast doubt on the teachings of the watchtower magazines so when your studying them at your watchtower magazine studies you may ask yourself the question am I really studying the truth?

I say this that the BIBLE is the only TRUTH it is Gods Holy inspired Word and it alone is the only Book that is THE TRUTH so therefore we can trust what it says right?
UNchained

Crossville, TN

#9 Mar 29, 2008
Deep down inside their hearts, the JW knows that they are following men instead of relying on the Holy Spirit to guide them.
jace

Bloomfield Hills, MI

#10 Mar 29, 2008
"It should be expected that the Lord would have a means of communicating to his people on the earth, and he has clearly shown that the magazine called The Watch Tower is used for that purpose."

Now most folks would conclude that this is talking about by means of his inspired word, but in the world of jw, it means the WT publications is how God is communicating and THIS IS ACCOMPLISHED by NOT inspiring what is being written according to jw

as the little boys said
"look mom no hands"

the same with jw, they actually want folks around the world to beleive that God is communicating THRU THEM and he has not inspired what they write

these are theological nightmares folks

when someone writes something down, declares it is the Law of God, i hate to tell jw but i kinda expect that information to be signe sealed and delivered by Holy Spirit not some dudes sitting around a conferene room table in NYC just guessing and offering opinion

this is the point that jw can't and won't grasp because they merely accept whatever they are told and when not , THEY KNOW TO KEEP THEIR MOUTH SHUT!!!!!!!!!!
jace

Bloomfield Hills, MI

#11 Mar 29, 2008
UNchained wrote:
Deep down inside their hearts, the JW knows that they are following men instead of relying on the Holy Spirit to guide them.
YEP THEY DO, in private conversation, jw will say, I follow whatever the Slave says, when asked about following these men who they refer to as The Slave in public forums like ON THEIR JOB or at the door, they will deny deny deny THAT THEY FOLLOW Some dudes out of NYC
jace

Bloomfield Hills, MI

#12 Mar 29, 2008
Interesting thought so what your telling me then is that its ok for the watchtower Bible and tract society to proclaim that they are the only ones that have the TRUTH yet it may not be the truth at the end of the day

##########

yea i was thinking the same thing,

sorta like telling A guest who ask for a glass of water,

that on some days good clean water comes out of the facet and on days,

the utility company pumps out sewage, BUT GO AHEAD AND TASTE IT and let me know what it is TODAY
UNchained

Crossville, TN

#13 Mar 29, 2008
jace wrote:
<quoted text>
YEP THEY DO, in private conversation, jw will say, I follow whatever the Slave says, when asked about following these men who they refer to as The Slave in public forums like ON THEIR JOB or at the door, they will deny deny deny THAT THEY FOLLOW Some dudes out of NYC
That's why I posted it, jace.

How many JW do you know that will say to another JW, "I don't really know if we can or should trust the Slave."?
jace

Bloomfield Hills, MI

#14 Mar 29, 2008
UNchained wrote:
<quoted text>
That's why I posted it, jace.
How many JW do you know that will say to another JW, "I don't really know if we can or should trust the Slave."?
you got that right!!!!!!!!!!

consider how any jw posting this site and reading my thread would fare better going to God and explaining why he is hanging out here nightly than going to the CO and PO and attempting to explain

“SHED THY "LIGHT"”

Since: Mar 08

London

#15 Mar 29, 2008
UNchained wrote:
Deep down inside their hearts, the JW knows that they are following men instead of relying on the Holy Spirit to guide them.
Its obvious, its like saying what came first the chicken or the egg? The Bible, is the sword of the spirit,and teaches us everything we need to know about life..we can't put our trust in a magazine written by men, who on occations get things wrong. Jehovah god makes available truths at its proper time..but at the end of the day, when this system falls and standing alone, i know which one i'd prefer to be holding in my hand..There are basic things from human standing that we need to know, abstain from fornication, adultry, the occult, love one another and above all Jehovah and Christ..But LOVE is the key, its the only thing along with Gods word which is essential for life.
Topsy Crett

United States

#16 Mar 29, 2008
I am beggining to like you more and more Shikinah.

“SHED THY "LIGHT"”

Since: Mar 08

London

#17 Mar 29, 2008
Topsy Crett wrote:
I am beggining to like you more and more Shikinah.
Well thank you lol..mind you not that i havnt found the watchtower helpful, but with out the bible, it has no foundation.
jace

Bloomfield Hills, MI

#18 Mar 29, 2008
shikinah wrote:
<quoted text>
Well thank you lol..mind you not that i havnt found the watchtower helpful, but with out the bible, it has no foundation.
Only if they would stick to staying on the foundation of the bible and stop trying to build dogmas that have no foundation

that is the whole reasons many of thier theological teachings have to be changed, they were NEVER BUILT on the bible to start with-

you can;t create a dogma and then TRY TO FIND A BIBLE VERSE to support it, because what happens is you then start to twist the bible to make things fit

if you look at all the life and death and life impacting teachings that the wt has had to revise, change and discard - the BOTTOMLINE IS THE SAME IN ALL OF THEM

They were never built on the foundation of the bible-

a house build on rock will not sink , but a house on sand will

“SHED THY "LIGHT"”

Since: Mar 08

London

#19 Mar 29, 2008
I see your point thats true, but one thing i can say, is that as a whole theres no other religion which has turned out such fearless recruits, who in the face of death never denounce their faith. Did you know, that the Jews and the Gypsies under hitlers power was forced captivity, but the Jehovah's witnesses, could leave and walk out of those camps, if only to denounce their faith..But they never, instead converted others because of their stand for truth to serving Jehovah..Where does someone get that type of faith? They must be doing something right, amoungst the things they do wrong.

“Jesus is Lord”

Since: Mar 08

Birmingham UK

#20 Mar 29, 2008
errrr thats not complete;y true is it what about the countless number of christians that died at the hands of the romans thrown to the lions what about the christians that was persecuted by Saul who later became the apostle paul and these had never heard of JF rutherford or any other watchtower president or organization all they had was their faith in Jesus Christ where they could say
matthew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
and I know personaly of christians who have died as a result of their faith in Jesus Christ and they was not Jehovahs witnesses one man I know was a christian going into muslim countries with Gospel literature proclaiming the Gospel to the muslim world till they killed him for his beliefs so for you to say that Jehovahs witnesses are the only fearless ones that are proclaiming Truth is incorrect

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