August 30, 1914 The World Magazine

August 30, 1914 The World Magazine

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DonCameron

Bowmansville, NY

#1 Apr 8, 2009
The above magazine contained the article “END OF ALL KINGDOMS IN 1914 –‘Millennial Dawners’ 25-Year Prophecy.” You can see the first page of the article at the following website:

http://www.geocities.com/captives_of_a_concep...

Page 60 of the “Proclaimers” book correctly quotes the article where it said:“The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy.”

The article refers to the book “The Time Is At Hand” that was written 25 years earlier in 1889 where Russell said the following on page 99:

“Within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved.… We consider it an established truth that the final END OF THE KINGDOMS of this world…will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914.”

The problem of course is that that “extraordinary prophecy” was NOT fulfilled with the terrific war outbreak in Europe in 1914. The magazine was mistaken. Not even one kingdom came to its end in 1914 let alone all of them.

I can understand why a secular magazine could misunderstand one of the Society’s prophecies. What I don’t understand is why the Society today quotes that magazine’s mistake AS IF IT WASN’T A MISTAKE. The “Proclaimers” book leads the reader to believe that the Society’s 1889 prophecy came true when World War I broke out in Europe in 1914.

If I was still a Witness I would write to the Governing Body (as I often used to do) to respectfully ask them about this matter. Is there any Witness on this Forum who will ask them why they included the above quote in their “Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom” book?

Don
bystander

Citrus Heights, CA

#2 Apr 8, 2009
This is slightly off topic, but I look at the Truth through the windshield, not the rear view mirror. The Truth is Progressive (Proverbs 4:18). Jehovah is constantly refining our understanding of Him, and so our older publications can contain statements that have since been modified.
JJJ

Australia

#3 Apr 8, 2009
bystander wrote:
This is slightly off topic, but I look at the Truth through the windshield, not the rear view mirror. The Truth is Progressive (Proverbs 4:18). Jehovah is constantly refining our understanding of Him, and so our older publications can contain statements that have since been modified.
So are you saying that if you run over a person, you just keep looking through the windsheild with no concern for the carnage that have left behind....

I'd call that DENIAL!
J-Dub

United States

#4 Apr 8, 2009
Also somewhat off the subject but still related.

It was in 1922 (I for get which issue of the WT) that Rutherford changed the 1878 seating to Aug 1, 1914.

“He Died for Me, I Live For Him”

Since: Apr 09

Palm Bay, FL

#5 Apr 8, 2009
Bystander, suppose I make statements as fact that are later proven to be false? How many times would I have to do this before you would call me a liar? Have you ever heard the saying "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me?"

"New light" and "progressive understanding" is one thing, but if there IS "new light" in this context, then the "new light" is going to get brighter and brighter. It's not going to get bright, then dim, bright, then dim. ESPECIALLY not God's light.

So if the Pharisees (GB) say that the men of Sodom will be resurrected...no they won't....yes they will...no they won't, that does not constitute new light. The first time they backpedaled, it might've been "new light." Every subsequent time, it's just a big, fat lie.

It offends me as a Christian when JWs suggest that my heavenly Father keeps changing His mind like a fickle little girl.

Then, when the GB is caught in lies, all it does is blame well-meaning JWs for "misinterpreting" its own false prophesies or (my personal favorite), "wanting it too much."
JJJ

Australia

#6 Apr 8, 2009
LivesForHim wrote:
Then, when the GB is caught in lies, all it does is blame well-meaning JWs for "misinterpreting" its own false prophesies or (my personal favorite), "wanting it too much."
Yes one my favs as well.... following is example in relation to the generation backflip....

The November 1 Watchtower 1995 had this to say: JEHOVAH’S PEOPLE AT TIMES…………. EVEN TYING THIS TO CALCULATIONS OF WHAT IS THE LIFETIME OF A GENERATION SINCE 1914. HOWEVER WE BRING A HEART OF WISDOM IN, NOT BY SPECULATING ABOUT HOW MANY YEARS MAKE A GENERATION…. When I began to study the bible, all the publications made a point of just that; “SPECULATING ABOUT HOW MANY YEARS MAKE A GENERATION” eg.“October 8 1968 Awake pg 13,14 says JESUS WAS OBVIOUSLY SPEAKING ABOUT THOSE WHO WERE OLD ENOUGH TO WITNESS WITH UNDERSTANDING WHAT TOOK PLACE WHEN THE “LAST DAYS” BEGAN…….EVEN IF WE PRESUME THAT 15 YEARS OF AGE WOULD BE PERCEPTIVE ENOUGH TO REALIZE THE IMPORT OF WHAT HAPPENED IN 1914, IT WOULD MAKE THE YOUNGEST OF “THIS GENERATION” NEARLY SEVENTY YEARS OLD TODAY.

**********

Of course almost another 40 years have passed since the above 1968 Watchtower, making “THE YOUNGEST OF “THIS GENERATION” almost 110 years old today, hence the need for a new understanding.

I have no problem with the fact that through eagerness they have been mistaken with dates and time periods.

What blows me away is the dishonest way that blame is directed away from the Governing Body or slave, and apportioned to all the other brothers including myself.

In the above article this is done by claiming that WE have speculated. I, like all the brothers I know, have never gone to the doors and taught my OWN speculations.

I have always followed the study publications verbatim, and they have all STATED AS FACT not speculated that indeed the generation that was alive, no, of discerning age in 1914 (see above 1968 watchtower), it is this physical generation that would not pass away before the end comes.

Yet in that one sentence in the above article…..‘JEHOVAH’S PEOPLE AT TIMES’… blame for the ‘speculation’ is directed away from the ‘slave’ who in all honesty it must be admitted are the ones who ‘fed this food at the proper time’, to us the great crowd in the first place and would have branded one as an apostate to not be in agreement with it.

It is dishonest to imply otherwise.
jace

Ashburn, VA

#7 Apr 9, 2009
Yet in that one sentence in the above article…..‘JEHOVAH’S PEOPLE AT TIMES’… blame for the ‘speculation’ is directed away from the ‘slave’ who in all honesty it must be admitted are the ones who ‘fed this food at the proper time’, to us the great crowd in the first place and would have branded one as an apostate to not be in agreement with it.

It is dishonest to imply otherwise.

##########

This is always the point the jw miss when discussing the error in wt theology, when it is first announced it is NEW LIGHT FROM THE SLAVE DUE TO HOLY SPIRIT

when the trash turns out wrong, THE BROTHERHOOOD GETS BLAMED
DonCameron

Bowmansville, NY

#8 Apr 9, 2009
Bystander,

You explained:

“I look at the Truth through the windshield, not the rear view mirror. The Truth is Progressive (Proverbs 4:18). Jehovah is constantly refining our understanding of Him, and so our older publications can contain statements that have since been modified.”

The fact that that the Society misunderstood what was gong to happen in 1914 (as seen in the rear view mirror) is not what has concerned me about that “The World Magazine” article. I could allow for the Society having made “mistakes” in the past – especially when those mistakes were acknowledgedl and corrected.

But what has concerned me in this particular case is that while ‘looking through the windshield’ I see the current “Proclaimers” book making it look like the Society didn’t make a mistake when it foretold the war that broke out in Europe in 1914.

Of course I can only speak for myself, but it seems to me that there is a difference between (1) making a mistake, and (2) making it look like there wasn’t a mistake.

When looking at the front page of the “The World Magazine” article it is obvious that the Society’s 25-year prophecy about “THE END OF ALL KINGDOMS IN 1914” DID NOT come true when World War I began. But when looking at the quote in the “Proclaimers” book it misleads the reader to believe that the Society’s “extraordinary prophecy” DID come true when World War I began.

Personally I would not expect such a thing from an organization that is being directed by Jehovah God. It seems to me that an organization that belongs to God would never have to do such a thing in order to prove that it really is His organization.

Don

“He Died for Me, I Live For Him”

Since: Apr 09

Palm Bay, FL

#9 Apr 9, 2009
DonCameron wrote:
I would not expect such a thing from an organization that is being directed by Jehovah God. It seems to me that an organization that belongs to God would never have to do such a thing in order to prove that it really is His organization.
Don
Amen, brother!
Nomi

Elliston, VA

#10 Apr 9, 2009
Myself? I am not alarmed, when something seems to be not exact. Prophecies depend on several factors. World events and time calculations. This leaves room for error. Not the first time, or last it can happen. Just as the Disciples thought the end would occurr, and they would receive their reward when Jesus was on earth. I do not give up, because I don't let such things that are not clear yet bother me. Jehovah GOD reveals understanding of Prophecy according to his timetable, not ours. It is given over time. Daniel 2:25. I simply try, best as I can to be prepared for whenever the end actually does occurr all the time. AND yes, I do believe Jehovah GOD guides the Organization that bears his name. I feel privileged to be a part of it. Have been so, over a half a century now.
DonCameron

Bowmansville, NY

#11 Apr 10, 2009
Nomi,

You seem to be missing the point I've tried to make.

The fact that the Society was in error THEN about what they thought was going to happen in 1914 is not the issue.

Rather it is how the Society treats that error NOW. Their current “Proclaimers” book makes it appear that the Society was NOT in error about what they thought was going to happen in 1914.

The “Proclaimers” book quotes the mistake “The World Magazine” made when it said the following…

“The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy.”

This makes it appear that the Society correctly foretold that war ahead of time. But they didn’t.

It was a mistake THEN when the Society foretold “THE END OF ALL KINGDOMS IN 1914.” But what is it called NOW when the Society misleads the reader to believe that the Society had NOT made a mistake?

Don
bystander

Citrus Heights, CA

#12 Apr 10, 2009
Don,

With all due respect, some food for thought:

"Jesus said to him:'No man that has put his hand to a plow and LOOKS AT THE THINGS BEHIND is well fitted for the kingdom of God.'" (Luke 9:62)

"...Forgetting the things behind and stretching forward to the things ahead." (Philippians 3:13)

The constant rehashing of all the inconsistencies of past publications is really a waste of time. Move forward.

Bystander
J-Dub

United States

#13 Apr 10, 2009
Unless a JW is ignorant of a the Organization's history I don't think they will refute Don's premise as a probability.

A JW should be careful of comments like Bystander's windshield/rearview mirror since the Organization uses the rearview mirror to prove why the other religions in Christianity were 'rejected' in 1914 and now.

We urge new studies to 'examine' their beliefs using the rearview mirror too.

Could Rutherford have been wrong? That is a question that each JW has to answer for themselves. For many the answer will be based on 'faith of belief' and others through examination of the Rutherford period. Most KH libraries have Ruthford's books and the ones they don't can be obtained online as copyright has long since expired.

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#14 Apr 10, 2009
DonCameron wrote:
The above magazine contained the article “END OF ALL KINGDOMS IN 1914 –‘Millennial Dawners’ 25-Year Prophecy.” You can see the first page of the article at the following website:
http://www.geocities.com/captives_of_a_concep...
Page 60 of the “Proclaimers” book correctly quotes the article where it said:“The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy.”
The article refers to the book “The Time Is At Hand” that was written 25 years earlier in 1889 where Russell said the following on page 99:
“Within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved.… We consider it an established truth that the final END OF THE KINGDOMS of this world…will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914.”
The problem of course is that that “extraordinary prophecy” was NOT fulfilled with the terrific war outbreak in Europe in 1914. The magazine was mistaken. Not even one kingdom came to its end in 1914 let alone all of them.
I can understand why a secular magazine could misunderstand one of the Society’s prophecies. What I don’t understand is why the Society today quotes that magazine’s mistake AS IF IT WASN’T A MISTAKE. The “Proclaimers” book leads the reader to believe that the Society’s 1889 prophecy came true when World War I broke out in Europe in 1914.
If I was still a Witness I would write to the Governing Body (as I often used to do) to respectfully ask them about this matter. Is there any Witness on this Forum who will ask them why they included the above quote in their “Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom” book?
Don
This has already been debunked as false representation.

This link:
http://www.geocities.com/captives_of_a_concep...

CLAIMS that Russell made a prophecy that the end of all kingdoms would arrive in 1914.

That was NOT a prophecy as Mr Cameron falsely claims.

The prophecy that the Proclaimers Book and the World Magazine are talking about is the end of the Gentile Times. This DID occur in 1914 and WAS fulfilled.

Only it was NOT fulfilled in the way that Russell expected. The end of all kingdoms did not immediately follow the end of the Gentile Times.

The quote from the book “The Time Is At Hand” that Cameron quoted is a small out-take from a study article discussing the "End of the Gentile Times" prophecy. The prophecy itself is in the BIBLE.

So the News paper has was not claiming that Russell made a prophecy. What Russell actually did was predict that in 25 years the end of the Gentile Times prophecy would occur. This did indeed come to pass.

The headline that reads: "Millenial Dawner's 25 Year Prophecy" is basically a badly worded and misleading heading. We can prove this by quoting the part that Don Cameron FAILED to mention.

This is what the article ACTUALLY says:

=== Quote The World Magazine:===

“The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students’, best known as ‘Millennial Dawners,’ have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914.

=== End Quote:===

So the prophecy is in the BIBLE and NOT is Russell's book!!

How is that for dishonest misrepresentation!!!

So when the World Magazine said "25 year prophecy" they really mean 25 years preaching ABOUT a prophecy.

Don Cameron has dishonestly capitalised on this misleading choice of words.

He KNOWS this already because we pointed it out to him the last time he brought out this sad attempt at discrediting JWs.

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#15 Apr 10, 2009
DonCameron wrote:
The above magazine contained the article “END OF ALL KINGDOMS IN 1914 –‘Millennial Dawners’ 25-Year Prophecy.” You can see the first page of the article at the following website:
http://www.geocities.com/captives_of_a_concep...
Page 60 of the “Proclaimers” book correctly quotes the article where it said:“The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy.”
The article refers to the book “The Time Is At Hand” that was written 25 years earlier in 1889 where Russell said the following on page 99:
“Within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved.… We consider it an established truth that the final END OF THE KINGDOMS of this world…will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914.”
The problem of course is that that “extraordinary prophecy” was NOT fulfilled with the terrific war outbreak in Europe in 1914. The magazine was mistaken. Not even one kingdom came to its end in 1914 let alone all of them.
I can understand why a secular magazine could misunderstand one of the Society’s prophecies. What I don’t understand is why the Society today quotes that magazine’s mistake AS IF IT WASN’T A MISTAKE. The “Proclaimers” book leads the reader to believe that the Society’s 1889 prophecy came true when World War I broke out in Europe in 1914.
If I was still a Witness I would write to the Governing Body (as I often used to do) to respectfully ask them about this matter. Is there any Witness on this Forum who will ask them why they included the above quote in their “Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom” book?
Don
This has already been debunked as false representation.

This link:
http://www.geocities.com/captives_of_a_concep...

CLAIMS that Russell made a prophecy that the end of all kingdoms would arrive in 1914.

That was NOT a prophecy as Mr Cameron falsely claims.

The prophecy that the Proclaimers Book is talking about is the end of the Gentile Times. This DID occur in 1914 and WAS fulfilled.

Only it was NOT fulfilled in the way that Russell expected. The end of all kingdoms did not immediately follow the end of the Gentile Times.

So the Proclaimers Book is simply directing the reader to some statements by Russell that correctly predicted the end of the Gentile Times but incorrectly described the events that were to occur in the year of its fulfilment.

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#16 Apr 10, 2009
Here is a link to Russell's book "The Time is at Hand" and the article in question:

http://www.ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.n...

It is CLEARLY discussing the end of the Gentile Times prophecy.

The tiny part that Don Cameron quotes is simply Russell's opinion about what would follow on AFTER the prophecy is fulfilled.

We can further PROVE that Don has misrepresented this by quoting the surrounding text that Don FAILED to mention:

=== Quote "The Time is at Hand" ===

In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished near the end of A.D. 1915.

=== End Quote ===

Does anyone notice something wrong here?

Yes, Don Cameron's quote placed the date at the end of 1914. But the ORIGINAL quote says 1915!!

That is not all. Don's quote contains many ellipsis the mark excluded text. What do the excluded pieces of text contain? The make it very clear that the prophecy is about the end of the Gentle Times, NOT the destruction of the Kingdoms that are thought to occur AFTER the prophecy has been fulfilled.

Basically the end of the Gentile Times prophecy is believed t be fulfilled in 1914 but the destruction of all kingdoms was expected to follow near the end of 1915 - the follow year AFTER the prophecy is fulfilled.

How is THAT for misrepresentation!!! What a WHOPPER!!

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#17 Apr 10, 2009
Here is a comparison between Don Cameron's quote and the one here:

http://www.ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.n...

=== Don's version of "The Time is at Hand" ===

“Within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved.… We consider it an established truth that the final END OF THE KINGDOMS of this world…will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914.”

=== End Quote ===

Now the one at http://www.ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.n...

=== Russell's version of "The Time is at Hand" ===

True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved; but we are living in a special and peculiar time, the "Day of Jehovah," in which matters culminate quickly; and it is written, "A short work will the Lord make upon the earth." (See Vol. I, chap. xv.) For the past eleven years these things have been preached and published substantially as set forth above; and in that brief time the development of influences and agencies for the undermining and overthrow of the strongest empires of earth has been wonderful. In that time Communism, Socialism and Nihilism sprang into vigorous existence, and already are causing great uneasiness among the rulers and high ones of earth, whose hearts are failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth; for the present powers are being mightily shaken, and ultimately shall pass away with a great tumult.

In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished near the end of A.D. 1915.

=== End Quote ===

Note: Cameron does not mention its about the end of the Gentile Times.

Note: Cameron says 1914, Russell says 1915.

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#18 Apr 10, 2009
Note: Cameron says BY the end of 1914, Russell says NEAR the end of 1915...

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#19 Apr 10, 2009
LivesForHim wrote:
Bystander, suppose I make statements as fact that are later proven to be false? How many times would I have to do this before you would call me a liar?
You are only a liar if you deliberately seek to deceive.

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#20 Apr 10, 2009
Here is a comparison between Don Cameron's quote and the one here:

http://www.ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.n...

=== Don's version of "The Time is at Hand" ===

“Within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved.… We consider it an established truth that the final END OF THE KINGDOMS of this world…will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914.”

=== End Quote ===

Now the one at http://www.ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.n...

=== Russell's version of "The Time is at Hand" ===

True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved; but we are living in a special and peculiar time, the "Day of Jehovah," in which matters culminate quickly; and it is written, "A short work will the Lord make upon the earth." (See Vol. I, chap. xv.) For the past eleven years these things have been preached and published substantially as set forth above; and in that brief time the development of influences and agencies for the undermining and overthrow of the strongest empires of earth has been wonderful. In that time Communism, Socialism and Nihilism sprang into vigorous existence, and already are causing great uneasiness among the rulers and high ones of earth, whose hearts are failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth; for the present powers are being mightily shaken, and ultimately shall pass away with a great tumult.

In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished near the end of A.D. 1915.

=== End Quote ===

Note: Cameron does not mention its about the end of the Gentile Times.

Note: Cameron says BY the end of 1914, Russell says NEAR the end of 1915.

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