Abstain from blood…MURDER
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Since: Apr 07

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#1 Nov 23, 2012
Abstain from blood…MURDER

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The Watchtower organization quotes Tertullian as an authority on the early Christian view of the Apostolic Decree to abstain from blood.

Tertullian wrote:

“When first the Gospel thundered and shook the old system to its base, when dispute was being held on the question of retaining or not the Law; this is the first rule which the apostles, on the authority of the Holy Spirit, send out to those who were already beginning to be gathered to their side out of the nations: "It has seemed (good)," say they, "to the Holy Spirit and to us to cast upon you no ampler weight than (that) of those (things) from which it is necessary that abstinence be observed; from sacrifices, and from fornications, and from blood: by abstaining from which ye act rightly, the Holy Spirit carrying you." Sufficient it is, that in this place withal there has been preserved to adultery and fornication the post of their own honour between idolatry and murder: for the interdict upon "blood" we shall understand to be (an interdict) much more upon human blood.”

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- Noah was to abstain from eating blood of slaughtered animals.

- Noah was to abstain from slaughtering humans (i.e., bloodshed; murder).

According to Tertullian, these two abstentions are embodied in the Apostolic Decree to abstain from blood.

Humans can murder (shed the blood of) other humans, and humans can self-murder (shed their own blood). According to Watchtower doctrine the Noachian Decree prohibits both murder and self-murder.

Why is this Watchtower teaching noteworthy?

Though Noah was to abstain from self-murder it was later expressed by Jesus that God does not require a person to abstain from self-murder when it’s done in attempt to save the life of another human being. In other words, though humans should abstain from self-murder neither the Noachian Decree nor the Apostolic Decree prohibits DONATING one’s life in self-murder in an honest and loving attempt to help save the life of another human being. Jesus called this ‘surrendering our soul in behalf of” others.—(John 15:13)

If true that the Apostolic Decree to abstain from blood embodies the blood and bloodshed abstentions of the Noachian Decree, then the standard expressed by Jesus demonstrates that God distinguishes between taking life and taking blood versus donating life and, likewise, donating blood.

If we can DONATE our life in self-murder (self-bloodshed) to save a life without breaking the Apostolic Decree to abstain from blood[shed] then we can likewise DONATE our blood to save life without breaking the Apostolic Decree to abstain from blood.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com

Since: Apr 07

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#2 Nov 23, 2012
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If it’s acceptable that a Christian can DONATE their life in self-murder (self-bloodshed) to help save the life of another then there’s nothing wrong with the individual in need to accept that loving DONATION.

It it’s acceptable that a Christian can DONATE their blood to help save the life of another then there’s nothing wrong with the individual in need to accept that loving DONATION.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
apple

Singapore, Singapore

#3 Nov 23, 2012
just now i was eating a roasted chicken, inside still have some raw blood and i tore it off.

Since: Oct 12

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#4 Nov 24, 2012
You get "donating blood" from "surrendering our soul on behalf of others"?

Holy leap of logic, batman!

Since: Apr 07

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#5 Nov 24, 2012
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From post 4[1]:
acrobat wrote:
You get "donating blood" from "surrendering our soul on behalf of others"?
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Holy leap of logic, batman!
Why?

Both abstention requirements (abstain from [eating] blood and human bloodshed) were given at the same time, to the same person and both are related in terms of life. This is termed the Noachian Decree.

Both abstentions are (according to Tertullian) found in the singular expression “abstain from blood” in the later Apostolic Decree.

Both abstentions are given equal weight, except that human bloodshed holds the consequent of forfeiting life.

So if one of these (human bloodshed) turns out NOT to be a required abstention WHEN it is DONATED in honest and loving attempt to help save the life of another human being, THEN why is this not also true in the case of the other ([eating] blood) WHEN each is the result of DONATION?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
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References:

1. Post 4: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Since: Apr 07

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#6 Nov 24, 2012
Well, acrobat?

Despite the Apostolic Decree to abstain from blood (which includes abstaining from eating blood and human bloodshed)…

- If it’s moral to DONATE our life to help save a life,

Then…

- Why isn’t it moral to DONATE our blood to help save a life?

And:

- If it’s moral to ACCEPT life DONATED to help save our life,

Then…

- Why isn’t it moral to ACCEPT blood DONATED to help save our life?

According to Jesus the man who DONATES his life by self-bloodshed to help save your life is NOT BREACHING the Noachian Decree to abstain from human bloodshed.

So why, precisely, is the man who DONATES his blood by transfusion medicine to help save your life BREACHING the Noachian Decree to abstain from blood?
__________

You’re willing to cast aspersion.

Are you just as willing to answer for the aspersion you cast?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com

Since: Jun 11

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#7 Nov 24, 2012
I'm not acrobat, but I can answer why it's not moral to donate the blood in our veins for others to use, in any way. It would be stealing. Our own blood doesn't belong to us.

sidgi

Since: Jun 11

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#8 Nov 24, 2012
If this doesn't convey that thought.....

Genesis 9:5

5 And, besides that, YOUR blood of YOUR souls shall I ask back. From the hand of every living creature shall I ask it back; and from the hand of man, from the hand of each one who is his brother, shall I ask back the soul of man

then how about this.......

1 Corinthians 6:19, 20

. 19 What! Do YOU not know that the body of YOU people is [the] temple of the holy spirit within YOU, which YOU have from God? Also, YOU do not belong to yourselves, 20 for YOU were bought with a price.

sidgi

Since: Apr 07

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#9 Nov 24, 2012
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From post 7[1]:
sidgi wrote:
I'm not acrobat, but I can answer why it's not moral to donate the blood in our veins for others to use, in any way. It would be stealing. Our own blood doesn't belong to us.
sidgi
Our life does not belong to us, either; it belongs to God.

Yet, according to Jesus, it was perfectly fine to for man to DONATE his life by self-bloodshed to help save your life.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 7: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Since: Jun 11

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#10 Nov 24, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
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From post 7[1]:
<quoted text>
Our life does not belong to us, either; it belongs to God.
Yet, according to Jesus, it was perfectly fine to for man to DONATE his life by self-bloodshed to help save your life.
Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:
1. Post 7: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
That wasn't the issue. The issue is about theft. How can someone take something belonging to God, give it to someone else, and that not be disapproved? In fact, the whole premise is built on what might happen, and what might result, not immediate need. There is no guaranteed result of saving a life. It is all a maybe. You are recommending a sure theft, to try for a maybe result. That is desperation tactics for nothing.

sidgi

Since: Apr 07

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#11 Nov 24, 2012
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From post 10[1]:
sidgi wrote:
That wasn't the issue. The issue is about theft. How can someone take something belonging to God, give it to someone else, and that not be disapproved?
It’s not theft when the Son of God says you can GIVE IT.

- Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?

- Do you believe life belongs to God?

- Do you believe Jesus said humans could GIVE their life to help save another?

If you believe each of the above then, according to THE CHRIST, there is exception to abstentions of the Noachian Decree based on BENEVOLENT GIVING.

Oh, and when Jesus said it was okay to DONATE our life to help save another there is NO INDICATION he was speaking in terms of any guarantee. That’s YOUR STRAWMAN.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 10: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Since: Jun 11

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#12 Nov 24, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
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From post 10[1]:
<quoted text>
It’s not theft when the Son of God says you can GIVE IT.
- Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?
- Do you believe life belongs to God?
- Do you believe Jesus said humans could GIVE their life to help save another?
If you believe each of the above then, according to THE CHRIST, there is exception to abstentions of the Noachian Decree based on BENEVOLENT GIVING.
Oh, and when Jesus said it was okay to DONATE our life to help save another there is NO INDICATION he was speaking in terms of any guarantee. That’s YOUR STRAWMAN.
Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:
1. Post 10: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Show where Jesus said that someone can give blood away. Jesus gave his blood, not ours as a sacrifice, and he gave it to God, not men. You can show Jesus mentioning that a man might give his life to save another, but not his blood. His blood doesn't belong to him to give away.

sidgi

Since: Apr 07

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#13 Nov 24, 2012
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From post 12[1]:
sidgi wrote:
…You can show Jesus mentioning that a man might give his life to save another, but not his blood. His blood doesn't belong to him to give away.
Jesus pointed out that DESPITE the Noachian Decree PROHIBITING human slaughter that a person COULD nevertheless slaughter THEMSELVES without breaching the PROHIBITION of the Noachian Decree.

Do you understand that PREMISE?

If yes, please say so.

If not, please say so.

THEN…. MAYBE…. just MAYBE… you can learn from THERE.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 12: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Since: Jun 11

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#14 Nov 24, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
From post 12[1]:
<quoted text>
Jesus pointed out that DESPITE the Noachian Decree PROHIBITING human slaughter that a person COULD nevertheless slaughter THEMSELVES without breaching the PROHIBITION of the Noachian Decree.
Do you understand that PREMISE?
If yes, please say so.
If not, please say so.
THEN…. MAYBE…. just MAYBE… you can learn from THERE.
Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:
1. Post 12: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
I understand that you haven't shown what you've stated was in the bible, from the bible.

sidgi

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#15 Nov 24, 2012
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From post 14[1]:
sidgi wrote:
Jesus pointed out that DESPITE the Noachian Decree PROHIBITING human slaughter that a person COULD nevertheless slaughter THEMSELVES without breaching the PROHIBITION of the Noachian Decree.
.
Do you understand that PREMISE?


And:
sidgi wrote:
I understand…


I’ll take THAT TO MEAN that you DO UNDERSTAND that DESPITE the Noachian Decree PROHIBITING human slaughter that a person COULD nevertheless slaughter THEMSELVES without breaching the PROHIBITION of the Noachian Decree.

Now let’s move another BABY STEP:

DO YOU UNDERSTAND that a person’s LIFE does not belong to them ANY MORE than their BLOOD belongs to them?

Do you understand that PREMISE?

If yes, please say so.

If not, please say so.

THEN…. MAYBE…. just MAYBE… you can learn from THERE.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 14: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#16 Nov 24, 2012
CORRECTED formatting…
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From post 14[1]:
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
Jesus pointed out that DESPITE the Noachian Decree PROHIBITING human slaughter that a person COULD nevertheless slaughter THEMSELVES without breaching the PROHIBITION of the Noachian Decree.
.
Do you understand that PREMISE?


And:
sidgi wrote:
I understand…


I’ll take THAT TO MEAN that you DO UNDERSTAND that DESPITE the Noachian Decree PROHIBITING human slaughter that a person COULD nevertheless slaughter THEMSELVES without breaching the PROHIBITION of the Noachian Decree.

Now let’s move another BABY STEP:

DO YOU UNDERSTAND that a person’s LIFE does not belong to them ANY MORE than their BLOOD belongs to them?

Do you understand that PREMISE?

If yes, please say so.

If not, please say so.

THEN…. MAYBE…. just MAYBE… you can learn from THERE.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 14: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
little lamb

Rye, Australia

#17 Nov 24, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
From post 14[1]:
<quoted text>
And:
<quoted text>
I’ll take THAT TO MEAN that you DO UNDERSTAND that DESPITE the Noachian Decree PROHIBITING human slaughter that a person COULD nevertheless slaughter THEMSELVES without breaching the PROHIBITION of the Noachian Decree.
Now let’s move another BABY STEP:
DO YOU UNDERSTAND that a person’s LIFE does not belong to them ANY MORE than their BLOOD belongs to them?
Do you understand that PREMISE?
If yes, please say so.
If not, please say so.
THEN…. MAYBE…. just MAYBE… you can learn from THERE.
Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:
1. Post 14: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
A person who slaughters themselves , is called suicide..I don't see anywhere in scripture where God promotes suicide..Your going over the fence now Marvin..

thats right a persons blood does not belong to themselves but belongs to God.

as sidgi shared with you..Jesus didn't slaughter himself..he allowed himself to be taken away to the slaughter..a different thing altogether

Evil men slaughtered Jesus..

Jesus knew that keeping integrity to God , would lead to evil wanting to kill him, and he kept his integrity to God even in the face of death

he never allowed the fear of a terrible death to take him off course.

And thats how he conquered death.

The same for us " There is no greater love then one should lay down his life for his friends"

This is carried out by martyrs, who have gone into lands and peoples where the gospel is forbidden, but have faced death for their fellowman, to get the good-news to them..Thats not suicide thats love reaching out despite death.

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#18 Nov 24, 2012
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From post 17[1]:
little lamb wrote:
A person who slaughters themselves , is called suicide..I don't see anywhere in scripture where God promotes suicide..
- When a person throws themselves in front of a speeding truck knowing they’ll surely die for no reason other than to kill themselves it’s called suicide.

- When a person throws themselves in front of a speeding truck knowing they’ll surely die for the reason of pushing a child to safety it’s called love.

Both individuals self-murdered. Jesus said one of them was doing a fine thing. Do you know which one, and why?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 17: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#19 Nov 25, 2012
It seems that you can't produce the scripture where you've hinted that Jesus supposedly stated that humans can give their blood to save another.

I notice you've not challenged the two verses I produced at the beginning, in place of the imaginary acrobat.

everything you've produced comes entirely from you. My, how the mighty have fallen, reduced to spiritual mumbling. Your message is garbled.

sidgi
abrother

United States

#20 Nov 25, 2012
sidgi wrote:
It seems that you can't produce the scripture where you've hinted that Jesus supposedly stated that humans can give their blood to save another.
I notice you've not challenged the two verses I produced at the beginning, in place of the imaginary acrobat.
everything you've produced comes entirely from you. My, how the mighty have fallen, reduced to spiritual mumbling. Your message is garbled.
sidgi
You are right, his message is garbled and half witted too.

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