John 1:1 Coptic
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Unknown

Fitzgibbon, Australia

#1 Feb 25, 2013
A background on the Coptic language:

Egyptian began to be written using the Greek alphabet in the 1st century. The new writing system became the Coptic script, an adapted Greek alphabet with the addition of six or seven signs from the demotic script to represent Egyptian sounds the Greek language did not have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_language

What's interesting about this language is, unlike the Greek language, it has the indefinite article. This provides great insight into the New Testament, which was translated into Coptic. When John 1:1c was translated we get the following:

"ne.u.noute pe p.Saje"

ne = indicates past tense of what follows;
(o)u = a (indefinite article);
noute = god;
pe = "was" when following ne;
p = the (masculine singular definite article);
Saje = Word,

This gives us the following, "a god was the Word."

What is a Trinitarians refutation to this evidence concerning John 1:1c?

Since: Jan 12

United States

#2 Feb 25, 2013
its really simple.... there is only one god, so "a god" is him as well as his spirit.... its him.

don't you like him or something?

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#3 Feb 25, 2013
red blood relative wrote:
its really simple.... there is only one god, so "a god" is him as well as his spirit.... its him.
don't you like him or something?
The Bible says that there are many gods, but only one Almighty God.

The Bible refers to the angels as "gods" for example.
Unknown

Fitzgibbon, Australia

#4 Feb 25, 2013
red blood relative wrote:
its really simple.... there is only one god, so "a god" is him as well as his spirit.... its him.
don't you like him or something?
In John 1:1b, Coptic version, the definite article is used in relation to God. So what we have is 'the God'(v. 1:1b) and 'a God'(v. 1:1c). The point of the language is to differentiate between the two.
little lamb

Australia

#5 Feb 25, 2013
Yes , there is enough evidence to show that the word translated God in John has a slight difference in not having the definite article before it in the Greek, when referring to the WORD.

I like a translation that states " In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD was DIVINE."

And I suspect that is the correct understanding , because it states about Christ..That "he emptied himself of GODS FORM."

So it fits in more with the idea that the WORD was in GODS FORM..more then being God himself.
Lemuel

Monticello, NY

#6 Feb 25, 2013
Constantine deliberately chose Christianity to reunify the Romans. The books of the bible especially the Gospels were deliberately chosen to promote the church as a patriarchal organsation. Priests are forbidden to marry specifically to remove the risk of spouse and child having claim on the churches assets. Many stories in the bible are simple rewrites of older legends and many 'Christian' customs are simple adoptions of the pagan customs of converts.
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rmnnoute

Woodbridge, VA

#7 Feb 25, 2013
Correct, the Coptic text of John 1:1c uses the Coptic indefinite article ou-, in coptrast with the use of the definite article, p-, in John 1:1b: Hn tehoueite nefshoop ngi pshaje auw pshaje nefshoop nnahrm pnoute auw neunoute pe pshaje.

According to Coptic grammarian Bentley Layton's book, "A Coptic Grammar," page 227, in this construction Coptic John 1:1c can be read as either "the Word was a god" or "the Word was divine." It cannot be made to say "the Word was God."

Perhaps a sufficient neutral meaning of both the Greek text of John 1:1c and the Coptic text is simply "the Word was like God."
rmnnoute

Woodbridge, VA

#8 Feb 25, 2013
Typo "in coptrast with" should read "in contrast with."

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#9 Feb 25, 2013
This is interesting, the coptic translation seems to support them being separate beings and like LL's post, different though (my interpretation here) being in God's form emptied himself (given that God created Jesus directly in his prehuman existence as the Word, I could see him being directly in the same material as God).

Since: Jan 12

United States

#10 Feb 25, 2013
in the scriptures, when it refers to satan or his demons, or kings on the earth being called "a god" by men, it is the holy spirit explaining that they are called gods by men, in error.... they are not real gods.

jesus the word of god was called "god", or "a-god" by the father himself, and his holy spirit.
he was not explaining that his word was a false god, like satan...... he was explaining that his word is himself, in a lessor form, becoming flesh.

jesus the word of god was the REAL "a-god".
and there is only ONE GOD...... its all him.

his spirit and his word are him..... its HIM.

jesus himself said, if you have seen me, you have seen the father..... its him, in a lessor form, so that you don't expire, just for looking at him.
Unknown

Fitzgibbon, Australia

#11 Feb 25, 2013
red blood relative wrote:
in the scriptures, when it refers to satan or his demons, or kings on the earth being called "a god" by men, it is the holy spirit explaining that they are called gods by men, in error.... they are not real gods.
jesus the word of god was called "god", or "a-god" by the father himself, and his holy spirit.
he was not explaining that his word was a false god, like satan...... he was explaining that his word is himself, in a lessor form, becoming flesh.
jesus the word of god was the REAL "a-god".
and there is only ONE GOD...... its all him.
his spirit and his word are him..... its HIM.
jesus himself said, if you have seen me, you have seen the father..... its him, in a lessor form, so that you don't expire, just for looking at him.
We have scriptural evidence supporting the proposition of God calling men 'gods'(v. John 10:34-35). According to your reasoning that would make these men also YHWH.

Since: Apr 10

Cape Town, South Africa

#12 Feb 26, 2013
"Unknown" ]A background on the Coptic language:
Egyptian began to be written using the Greek alphabet in the 1st century. The new writing system became the Coptic script, an adapted Greek alphabet with the addition of six or seven signs from the demotic script to represent Egyptian sounds the Greek language did not have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_language
What's interesting about this language is, unlike the Greek language, it has the indefinite article. This provides great insight into the New Testament, which was translated into Coptic. When John 1:1c was translated we get the following:
"ne.u.noute pe p.Saje"
ne = indicates past tense of what follows;
(o)u = a (indefinite article);
noute = god;
pe = "was" when following ne;
p = the (masculine singular definite article);
Saje = Word,
This gives us the following, "a god was the Word."
What is a Trinitarians refutation to this evidence concerning John 1:1c?

>>Unknown google "leolaia John 1: 1 makes it into the WT"! therE you will find one of the best discussion or explanation re this issue .She did a splending job!

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#13 Feb 26, 2013
red blood relative wrote:
in the scriptures, when it refers to satan or his demons, or kings on the earth being called "a god" by men, it is the holy spirit explaining that they are called gods by men, in error.... they are not real gods.
jesus the word of god was called "god", or "a-god" by the father himself, and his holy spirit.
he was not explaining that his word was a false god, like satan...... he was explaining that his word is himself, in a lessor form, becoming flesh.
jesus the word of god was the REAL "a-god".
and there is only ONE GOD...... its all him.
his spirit and his word are him..... its HIM.
jesus himself said, if you have seen me, you have seen the father..... its him, in a lessor form, so that you don't expire, just for looking at him.
The Apostle Paul basically called Angels "gods". Was Paul accusing the Angels of being false gods?

The Bible says that there are MANY gods.

But there is only one God (capital G)- being an Almighty God different from all other creatures referred to as "gods" in scripture.

So there is only one God, but many gods - according to scripture.
Tao itness

United States

#14 Feb 26, 2013
The nicean creed defining the trinity makes no sense according to the bible that Christ is equal in every way along with the Holy spirit which is the essence and power of God Himself. Jesus in one gospel says He removed a demon by Holy Spirit and the same account in another gospel says He removed the demon by the finger of God. Also the Glorified Christ in Revelation says of the Father youre God and my God. The Father never reffers to The messiah as His God. Both the catholic and Baptist encyclopedias say in essence that the trinity is a manmade doctrine that does not exsist in the Bible.yet Ive been to churches that practically teach the same thing as JWs as far as identity and relationship of the three and call it Trinity. So even definitions of trinity vary. Where the Witnesses are wrong and the debate over scripture in these matters is non ending is that they do not Give Christ worship or honor as God,which the bible is clear on. In Hebrews God is clearly demanding the angels to worship Him. In Revelation when John falls down before the angel,he is rebuked. Yet when doing an even more humble obeisense before Christ ,no warning is given. Stephen clearly prayed to Christ Jesus and there is NO evidence he switched gears and began praying to Yahweh mid sentence. In fact he was praying the same martyrs prayer of Jesus crucified and makes no sense that he would mid thought start praying to Yahweh. So original trinity doctrine of the Nicene creed puts Jesus on co equal with Yahweh in every way,which is an exaggeration,to say the least. And the WT does not give Christ the worship that Yahweh demands of us. Just as a prince rises to fill the position of his father ,so to Jesus after glorifcation is raised in position on par with Yahweh Himself. After years of studying both sides it is the only conclusion I can come up with-every one is wrong!(except me! LoL) Praise and worship to Yahweh and His Messiah in the power of the Holy Spirit! Amen!!

Since: Jan 12

United States

#15 Feb 26, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
The Apostle Paul basically called Angels "gods". Was Paul accusing the Angels of being false gods?
The Bible says that there are MANY gods.
But there is only one God (capital G)- being an Almighty God different from all other creatures referred to as "gods" in scripture.
So there is only one God, but many gods - according to scripture.
yes, paul was making a distinction between the one true god, and the false so called gods who are mere angels.
john 1;1 is not a warning about false gods, its about the position the word of god is actually in..... he is god's word, a true [a] god, in the flesh, directly begotten of god.

the scripture is not there to prove jesus was just another false god angel.

when jesus was refuting the wicked pharisees, he was using their own medicine against them since they didn't have a problem calling others "god's", knowing they were not real gods, but they took issue with jesus being a REAL god.

the whole reason you keep bringing this subject up is to cause a division, and seperate jw members away from mainstream chrisitanity..... you are afraid your members will go back to church and worship jesus and your wicked organization will dwindle down to nothing.
Unknown

Fitzgibbon, Australia

#16 Feb 26, 2013
Johan Henze wrote:
"Unknown" ]A background on the Coptic language:
Egyptian began to be written using the Greek alphabet in the 1st century. The new writing system became the Coptic script, an adapted Greek alphabet with the addition of six or seven signs from the demotic script to represent Egyptian sounds the Greek language did not have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_language
What's interesting about this language is, unlike the Greek language, it has the indefinite article. This provides great insight into the New Testament, which was translated into Coptic. When John 1:1c was translated we get the following:
"ne.u.noute pe p.Saje"
ne = indicates past tense of what follows;
(o)u = a (indefinite article);
noute = god;
pe = "was" when following ne;
p = the (masculine singular definite article);
Saje = Word,
This gives us the following, "a god was the Word."
What is a Trinitarians refutation to this evidence concerning John 1:1c?
>>Unknown google "leolaia John 1: 1 makes it into the WT"! therE you will find one of the best discussion or explanation re this issue .She did a splending job!
Thanks for the post. She never deals with the other languages the NT was translated into though, which is what I am discussing. The Greek doesn't have the indefinite article so it is left up to the translators to add it or not. Based upon the actual Greek grammar of John 1:1c, where an unmodified anarthrous predicate noun coming before the verb is used, there are only 5 proper texts that can be compared to it so as to shed light on how it should be translated.

1. John 4:19 -(“a prophet”)- all Bible translations
2. John 8:48 -(“a Samaritan”)- all translations
3. John 18:37 (a)-(“a king”)- all
4. John 18:37 (b)-(“a king”)- in the Received Text (TR) and 1991 Byzantine text]

So when all the proper (those most closely equivalent to the actual usage found at John 1:1c) examples found in John’s writings are examined in various Trinitarian Bibles (KJV, NASB, RSV, NIV, etc.), we find they are always translated with indefinite concrete nouns such as “you are a prophet”(Jn 4:19) which perfectly corresponds with a rendering of John 1:1c as “The Word was a god” in the Greek language.

As I originally posted, the Coptic text, which does have the indefinite article, translates the Greek text of John 1:1c with the indefinite article.
bible braniac

Bensenville, IL

#17 Feb 26, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
The Bible says that there are many gods, but only one Almighty God.
The Bible refers to the angels as "gods" for example.
Isee,Like the god in Heb 1:8?

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#18 Feb 27, 2013
Thank you for this; this scriptural rendering and the various bible translation variations was also puzzling to me.
Unknown wrote:
<quoted text> Thanks for the post. She never deals with the other languages the NT was translated into though, which is what I am discussing. The Greek doesn't have the indefinite article so it is left up to the translators to add it or not. Based upon the actual Greek grammar of John 1:1c, where an unmodified anarthrous predicate noun coming before the verb is used, there are only 5 proper texts that can be compared to it so as to shed light on how it should be translated.
1. John 4:19 -(“a prophet”)- all Bible translations
2. John 8:48 -(“a Samaritan”)- all translations
3. John 18:37 (a)-(“a king”)- all
4. John 18:37 (b)-(“a king”)- in the Received Text (TR) and 1991 Byzantine text]
So when all the proper (those most closely equivalent to the actual usage found at John 1:1c) examples found in John’s writings are examined in various Trinitarian Bibles (KJV, NASB, RSV, NIV, etc.), we find they are always translated with indefinite concrete nouns such as “you are a prophet”(Jn 4:19) which perfectly corresponds with a rendering of John 1:1c as “The Word was a god” in the Greek language.
As I originally posted, the Coptic text, which does have the indefinite article, translates the Greek text of John 1:1c with the indefinite article.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#19 Feb 27, 2013
bible braniac wrote:
<quoted text> Isee,Like the god in Heb 1:8?
In Heb 1:9 the God is Jehovah and the "sceptre" is Jesus.
Unknown

Fitzgibbon, Australia

#20 Feb 27, 2013
Have any Trinitarians researched this issue before and come up with a refutation?

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