Fake Christmas
Susie B

Richland, WA

#1843 Jan 11, 2013
Boni wrote:
<quoted text>
So you would teach me that Christmas was recorded in the Bible as an annual holiday celebrated by the primative Christians.
Primitive Christians are those practicing Christians living in the time period of Early Christianity. Early Christianity is the time period between the ascension of Jesus around the year 30 and before the First Council of Nicaea in the year 325.
<quoted text>
Yes I do and yes it does.
<quoted text>
No. But it appears that I spoil your party when I simply asked you if you have on record the early Christians doing these things. Did they have the date written in the Bible of Jesus' birthday? And did the Bible record how they absorbed Saturnalia and other pagan celebrations in order to invent Christmas?
<quoted text>
I do by following his footsteps by, among other things, not being part of the world as Jesus was no part of the world.
<quoted text>
No, his Father is the only true God.
John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.
Have a nice day!
:)
JESUS is NOT a true God? WHOA! But the bible says He is a mighty God and if He comes from the Heavenly Father and he is the TRUTH of GOD then I would have to think He could only be a true God!
There is only true and false right...you just publicly renounced JESUS as a true God...so is He is a false God?
Hmmm, I'm gonna have to pray about it for a while, this is a difficult one for me, sorry.
Snorkler

Alberton, South Africa

#1844 Jan 11, 2013
Theophilus wrote:
What if that without a day, a date, a season to offend anyone... Would it still be wrong to give thanks anyway, everyday, for this child, soon to be Savior, this King... whom ancients sought and of whom the lost and hurting seek today... is it wrong to celebrate each day... including the 25th of December??
So great a love that would cause a King to shed His blood for you and I... which should cause each of us to ask; "Who am I????" Who am I that a king would shed his blood for? Who am I that a king would die in my place??? Who am I that is so caught up in dogma and mortal combat as to who is right and to who is wrong to realize that the important thing is that "He" the "King" died that we might live! And we're suppose to argue over which day or season to give thanks??? How about each and every day??? And that not forsaking the 25th of Dec. For if each day is a day the Lord has made and we are to rejoice and be glad in it... then to regard any day as a day of offense would be to disregard this command.
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peraventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." (Rom 5:6-9)
Christmas or Easter... birth or ressurection... what ever you wish to call it... when you take the focus off the Messiah... and what He did in your place... His Advent... His sacrifice... you have lost your first love regardless of what dogma you're defending. Just say'n..
Hi Theo , would you agree that Xmas and Easter are Religious Celebrations ?
Snorkler

Alberton, South Africa

#1845 Jan 11, 2013
miseracord wrote:
<quoted text>
It's "who's" and not "whose" in that question.
:)
dee lightful

Piedmont, SC

#1846 Jan 11, 2013
Boni wrote:
<quoted text>
So you would teach me that Christmas was recorded in the Bible as an annual holiday celebrated by the primative Christians.
Primitive Christians are those practicing Christians living in the time period of Early Christianity. Early Christianity is the time period between the ascension of Jesus around the year 30 and before the First Council of Nicaea in the year 325.
<quoted text>
Yes I do and yes it does.
<quoted text>
No. But it appears that I spoil your party when I simply asked you if you have on record the early Christians doing these things. Did they have the date written in the Bible of Jesus' birthday? And did the Bible record how they absorbed Saturnalia and other pagan celebrations in order to invent Christmas?
<quoted text>
I do by following his footsteps by, among other things, not being part of the world as Jesus was no part of the world.
<quoted text>
No, his Father is the only true God.
John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.
Have a nice day!
:)
Your admitting Jesus is a false God even though the bible says he is a Mighty G.od and yet you believe he is a false God. You are obviously not a Christian at all as you follow the false teachings of false prophets.
Those false prophets that you follow are the ones you obey and need because they tell you they are your God and savior and you believe the liars. You don't need or want the God of scriptures and Jesus Christ when you have an org of men that lead you to distruction. Pity that!

Since: Jan 10

Knightdale, NC

#1847 Jan 11, 2013
Boni wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not spouting any doctrine. I question the validity of using pagan elements in a "Christian" holiday that has no Christian in the New Testament showing it to be an annual celebration of Jesus' birthday nor how they celebrated it.
<quoted text>
I quote your passage.
***
Just as in Acts and the sheet coming down in the vision before Peter...(12) Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.(13) And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill and eat.(14) But Peter said, Not so, Lord,; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.(15) And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."
***
It was about food.
And if you mentioned it to draw a parallelism, then I use the parallelism to remind you that nothing from heaven came down to declare the paganism in Christmas as clean.
<quoted text>
Does the name make the person or does the person make the name? Whatever "Phebe" was is not the same "Phebe" she became.
When the winter solstice celebrations where hijacked to form Christmas, here you have an example of a name change but the creature remained the same!
:)
What you call pagan and heathen as far as a day is concerned etc. God can clean up for his purposes also. The bible is filled with those who were heathen and used of God. Ruth, Rahab, these were in the ancestry of Jesus. And if the 25th of Dec. falls on a Sunday or a Tuesday or Thursday when the Hall is open... is it any different than any other day the Lord has made? If what was pagan or heathen was not used for God's purposes, whether in festivals etc... then why would Paul go into the heathen nations seeking the lost Gentiles to be converted?

I know you see the parallelism.. Of what I speak of... You are very intelligent and I know you see the deeper things of scripture as you go through the Word. I also know you don't want to see these parallel points. Whether it's people, places, days, or festivals... what is and isn't spoken of as acceptable is also not spoken of as unacceptable. So by the same standard... just because something is not mentioned directly does not mean it's forbidden either.

As far as Acts is concerned.. the food part was a picture of the acceptance of the Gentiles as clean who believed. If you read further you will see this in Chapter 11, verses 1 thru 18... especially verses 17 and 18. This is undeniable in relationship to the food called clean in Chapter 10, verses 11 thru 15.

Since: Jan 10

Knightdale, NC

#1848 Jan 11, 2013
Snorkler wrote:
<quoted text>Hi Theo , would you agree that Xmas and Easter are Religious Celebrations ?
Well hello my ole friend... Snorkie... Christmas and Easter as far as the calendar day is concerned is for the individual at heart to decide whether it is a religious celebration. Just what is a "religious celebration" as defined by you or others??

Each day is a day to rejoice and be glad in. Each day in the heart of a believer is a day to give thanks, honor, glory, worship and praise. And Christmas or Easter should be of the same... giving no thought of what some would declare honoring "dead", powerless and lifeless" idols. For by giving thought and credit to such gives the very powerless idol... power! At least in the mind of the one giving credit to what is not.

God looks at the heart of man... man looks at the outward appearance. What man sees as a fault....(just as those who found and still find fault in the Lord Jesus) is not really a fault at all if God uses it for good. People, places, nations, days, festivals, you name it.... God can use for His purposes... either in celebration of revival...(Ninavah's generation saved by Jonah) etc.

So I guess what I need to know before I can answer you correctly is to find out how and what you define as a "religious" celebration verses a day of rememberance. The day of Atonement... etc..??? What if it fell on a Sunday that coincided with Easter or Christmas??? What in the world do you do then??? Day of Penecost??? Passover??? What man calls common... God may have cleaned up!(Acts 10:13-15)(Acts 11:17-18)

And most of all what God took and cleaned up and made new... perhaps you and me... when we were dead in our sins and trespasses, and made righteous through the shed blood of Christ on the altar at Calvary, is that act found pagan and heather ever as we were before we believed? Even if it falls on and around the Passover observances?

Everyday should be Resurrection Sunday and everyday should be honoring the Advent of the Son of God into this dark and sinful world.

Love ya man... Theo..

Since: Jan 10

Knightdale, NC

#1849 Jan 11, 2013
oops! "is that act found pagan and heather ever as we were before we believed?" Should have read: Is that act of being cleansed to be found as pagan or heathen.. even as we were found such before we believed?"

You and I were heathen pagans once... we were in rebellion... and what if we came to a saving knowledge on Christ on Christmas or Easter?? Or perhaps on our birthday? Would that not still be a day to celebrate personally???

Now as far as you honoring Christmas, Easter, National Holidays, Birthdays.. Anniversarys... etc.. You guys have something going on there! I'm cheap by nature... and I'm spending a fortune in cards, chocolates, and gifts. I'm thinking of claiming to be a JW just so I can save some money!!!:O) And if I owned a mega business... I'd hire you guys... I could save a fortune in paid days off and could keep operations running wide open. Good thoughts!

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#1850 Jan 11, 2013
Boni wrote:
<quoted text>
I disagree. Nearly all aspects of Christmas observance have their roots in Roman custom and religion. With additional elements from northern European custom and religion.
:)
.
. Hello.. everything..that GOD created ..was for the benifit of all mankind.. Meaning that even you ..use things that the pagans do... If we discounted everything the pagans do ..who's nose ..would we be cutting off ??? hmm!~ And being as how ..in the bible.. it is not wrong for you or I to eat things sacrificed to idols..unless it is specified that it was sacrificed to idols.
NOW..! I don't see that as being a major problem in this day and age.. DO YOU?..

“Close enough”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#1851 Jan 11, 2013
Susie B wrote:
<quoted text>
We are not Israelites, and JESUS IS FROM GOD and yes, we are told we should worship/serve HIM!
You avoid the point completely about the star leading the astrologers and its connection with "Christmas." The star was not from God. I never found even before I realized the pagan customs around Christmas were not from God, that the Christmas celebration is a good indication of who is leading a Christian life. I really did find that all those celebrating it were either misled, or simple hypocrites or stupid people. But that was my viewpoint. Now I realize they, like you, are simply misled and mystified into believing what's not true, as if it's holy. It's not.
Snorkler

Alberton, South Africa

#1852 Jan 11, 2013
Theophilus wrote:
<quoted text>
Well hello my ole friend... Snorkie... Christmas and Easter as far as the calendar day is concerned is for the individual at heart to decide whether it is a religious celebration. Just what is a "religious celebration" as defined by you or others??
Each day is a day to rejoice and be glad in. Each day in the heart of a believer is a day to give thanks, honor, glory, worship and praise. And Christmas or Easter should be of the same... giving no thought of what some would declare honoring "dead", powerless and lifeless" idols. For by giving thought and credit to such gives the very powerless idol... power! At least in the mind of the one giving credit to what is not.
God looks at the heart of man... man looks at the outward appearance. What man sees as a fault....(just as those who found and still find fault in the Lord Jesus) is not really a fault at all if God uses it for good. People, places, nations, days, festivals, you name it.... God can use for His purposes... either in celebration of revival...(Ninavah's generation saved by Jonah) etc.
So I guess what I need to know before I can answer you correctly is to find out how and what you define as a "religious" celebration verses a day of rememberance. The day of Atonement... etc..??? What if it fell on a Sunday that coincided with Easter or Christmas??? What in the world do you do then??? Day of Penecost??? Passover??? What man calls common... God may have cleaned up!(Acts 10:13-15)(Acts 11:17-18)
And most of all what God took and cleaned up and made new... perhaps you and me... when we were dead in our sins and trespasses, and made righteous through the shed blood of Christ on the altar at Calvary, is that act found pagan and heather ever as we were before we believed? Even if it falls on and around the Passover observances?
Everyday should be Resurrection Sunday and everyday should be honoring the Advent of the Son of God into this dark and sinful world.
Love ya man... Theo..
Hello Theo ,let me make it really simple for all of us ......Would you agree that Xmas is a Religious Festival ?

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#1853 Jan 12, 2013
HopeReigns wrote:
Boni, you keep at the pagan stuff...and I will keep praying for God to get the pagan knowledge worship out of you.
WE ALL KNOW WHAT YOU SAID.
Let's move on and ask why the bible mentions HADES the god of the underworld eh?
It all repeats again for Christmas 2013.

Now, having said that, if you want to give it a rest, I'll agree to that. But come December if you keep insisting that Christmas is an annual 'Christian Holiday' Biblically binding on Christians to celebrate, I'll challenge you on that point.

Create a new topic.

Thanks.

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#1854 Jan 12, 2013
miseracord wrote:
<quoted text>
It strikes me that the nation of Israel was guided by God to give no worship to anything that was not from Him. The Israelites were not to adopt the ways of the nations around them. So why would a person think that it's OK for Christians to adopt pagan ways that conflict with God's teachings and worship? For instance, the date itself is simply a lie. He was not born on December 25th.
The "wise men" did not go to worship Jesus as God, as part of a trinity, or as anything other than do their homage to someone born a king, which was the way middle easterners did this. They were astrologers following stars, and that star came right over the place where Jesus and his family were staying. Satan knew full well that Herod wanted to kill Jesus. And as a result of Jehovah's intervening to make sure those astrologers went back another way, rather than report back to Herod, Herod got so angry he ordered all the children under the age of two to be killed.
The star did not guide these men directly to Jesus in Bethlehem. Rather, they were led to Jerusalem where they came in touch with King Herod. And Herod would have killed Jesus if God had not stepped in and warned the astrologers not to return to Herod.
The Christmas celebration is not celebrating Jesus, with its trimmings and star and false date. It was not a warm and cozy time for Mary and Joseph.
Agreed. Great summary.

:)

Since: Jan 10

Knightdale, NC

#1855 Jan 12, 2013
Snorkler wrote:
<quoted text>Hello Theo ,let me make it really simple for all of us ......Would you agree that Xmas is a Religious Festival ?
That, I believe, depends upon the individual. Snorkie. It can be a special personal day (I hate the word "religion or religious") in fellowship, communion, and worship with the Lord. Heart to heart. It may even be a festive day with a feast provided. That is biblical of other days too. A day spent remembering that He came into this world not to condemn the world.. but rather through Him the world might be saved. That whosoever should believe upon Him is given the power to become a child of God unto salvation by faith. For it is by grace we are saved, through faith... and this being a gift of God.

Now for another individual it can be simply just a secular day given only to "Santa Claus" and commercial exploitation of a Biblical figure. A day of exchanging presents and festivities, totally void or lacking focus of Christ.

Christmas or Xmas is a title to a day observed by man. The birth of Christ was observed by the Hosts of Heaven and the humble of the earth (shepherds). The "birth" and advent of Christ (Messiah) is something to be celebrated if anything is.

Look I don't condemn anyone for "not" celebrating anything. And rightfully suspect that should go the other way also out of respect.

Have a good weekend Snorkler... Good talking with you my friend.

Take care... Theo

Since: Jan 10

Knightdale, NC

#1856 Jan 12, 2013
Oh by the way Snorkie.... You could even make a feast day out of some pickled octopus and crackers!(You still eat that stuff???)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#1857 Jan 12, 2013
Susie B wrote:
<quoted text>
Lol, Boni why don't you use your JW bible? Here, I will use mine.
(2 Corinthians 6:14) "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness?"
Like I said UNBELIEVERS don't celebrate JESUS...BELIEVERS put JESUS FIRST in their lives and do celebrate Him.
Putting Jesus first means being in the LIGHT and the darkness has NO AUTHORITY OVER YOU! Your fear and lack of faith make you an easy target, so you don't celebrate Jesus in any way!
Nice. You go on to prove what I've suspected that the Opposition use more of the WTS publications than some JWs do!

I believe you interpret 2Co 6:14 wrongly. Having Jesus isn't some sort of magical bodysuit that allows you to WILLINGLY dive into the world's sewer and not get wet by its filth. The apostle Paul makes it very clear as you continue your reading from 2Co 6:14 and beyond.

:)
Susie B wrote:
<quoted text>
Lol, Jesus didn't come to start a religion or choose one! He came to mediate a New Covenant which would cost Him His life... for US! JW's are so Pharisaically legalistic...Jesus put a stop to that!
No. Jesus came to set a course for those in Judaism and those not in Judaism to follow. Those in Judaism would obviously get a head start but, unfortunately, very few took advantage of it.
Susie B wrote:
<quoted text>
You do realize you live in a True God-less world where paganism has touched everything? Are you married, and if you are do you wear a wedding ring? Do you ever burn candles around your bathroom/tub or anywhere in your house for ambiance/relaxation?
Paganism is everywhere. But being no part of the world is possible. Jesus proved it and the Early Christians proved it. So a true Christian can be no part of the world. And the world WILL SEE THAT as they will perceive the true Christian as different and apart from them.

Can the world tell you apart from them during Christmas? I know it's a loaded question but, deep down inside, you'll recognize the point I'm making.
Susie B wrote:
<quoted text>
"JESUS" is to nice to give up :) Christmas is just a celebration of HIM.
By telling Jesus what his birthday is -- which was never in December? Besides Jesus never revealing anyway?

By ramming festivities down Jesus' throat that was never designed for him in the first place?

By substituting Jesus for the pagan deities that those festivities were designed to honor?

I could go on but I think I can make my point that Christmas was NEVER in celebration of Jesus.

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#1858 Jan 12, 2013
Susie B wrote:
<quoted text>
JESUS is NOT a true God? WHOA! But the bible says He is a mighty God and if He comes from the Heavenly Father and he is the TRUTH of GOD then I would have to think He could only be a true God!
There is only true and false right...you just publicly renounced JESUS as a true God...so is He is a false God?
Hmmm, I'm gonna have to pray about it for a while, this is a difficult one for me, sorry.
To the contrary, I feel sorry for you and those in your position that instantly bring up all these arbitrary mental blocks when all you need to follow is that simple Scripture.

Here it is again.

John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

JWs are monotheists as Jesus was. He believed in the only true God. You can tell by his impossible-to-spin expression that clearly defines to him, and us, who the only true God is: his Father who Jesus addressed with that term!

In the light of the clarity of many verses in the Bible, like this one, that shows that it is only the Father who is God, I marvel that so many of the Opposition can accept the orthodox Trinitarian teaching that Jesus is God anyway. Especially when you have another verse which is a classic summation of the heart of true Christianity ...

1Co 8:6 But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for Him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.

This isn't difficult, Susie B. So stop turning and turning and turning this over so much that you make it difficult to accept.

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#1859 Jan 12, 2013
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text> Your admitting Jesus is a false God even though the bible says he is a Mighty G.od and yet you believe he is a false God. You are obviously not a Christian at all as you follow the false teachings of false prophets.
Those false prophets that you follow are the ones you obey and need because they tell you they are your God and savior and you believe the liars. You don't need or want the God of scriptures and Jesus Christ when you have an org of men that lead you to distruction. Pity that!
Reading comprehension!

I quoted Jesus who said that his Father is "the only true God"!(John 17:3)

If you don't see that, I suggest you read your Bible with your eyes open.

:)

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#1860 Jan 12, 2013
Theophilus wrote:
<quoted text>
That, I believe, depends upon the individual. Snorkie. It can be a special personal day (I hate the word "religion or religious") in fellowship, communion, and worship with the Lord. Heart to heart. It may even be a festive day with a feast provided. That is biblical of other days too. A day spent remembering that He came into this world not to condemn the world.. but rather through Him the world might be saved. That whosoever should believe upon Him is given the power to become a child of God unto salvation by faith. For it is by grace we are saved, through faith... and this being a gift of God.
Now for another individual it can be simply just a secular day given only to "Santa Claus" and commercial exploitation of a Biblical figure. A day of exchanging presents and festivities, totally void or lacking focus of Christ.
Christmas or Xmas is a title to a day observed by man. The birth of Christ was observed by the Hosts of Heaven and the humble of the earth (shepherds). The "birth" and advent of Christ (Messiah) is something to be celebrated if anything is.
Look I don't condemn anyone for "not" celebrating anything. And rightfully suspect that should go the other way also out of respect.
Have a good weekend Snorkler... Good talking with you my friend.
Take care... Theo
This is a loving and kind response.

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#1861 Jan 12, 2013
Theophilus wrote:
<quoted text>
What you call pagan and heathen as far as a day is concerned etc. God can clean up for his purposes also. The bible is filled with those who were heathen and used of God. Ruth, Rahab, these were in the ancestry of Jesus. And if the 25th of Dec. falls on a Sunday or a Tuesday or Thursday when the Hall is open... is it any different than any other day the Lord has made? If what was pagan or heathen was not used for God's purposes, whether in festivals etc... then why would Paul go into the heathen nations seeking the lost Gentiles to be converted?
I know you see the parallelism.. Of what I speak of... You are very intelligent and I know you see the deeper things of scripture as you go through the Word. I also know you don't want to see these parallel points. Whether it's people, places, days, or festivals... what is and isn't spoken of as acceptable is also not spoken of as unacceptable. So by the same standard... just because something is not mentioned directly does not mean it's forbidden either.
As far as Acts is concerned.. the food part was a picture of the acceptance of the Gentiles as clean who believed. If you read further you will see this in Chapter 11, verses 1 thru 18... especially verses 17 and 18. This is undeniable in relationship to the food called clean in Chapter 10, verses 11 thru 15.
Wow, how you keep mixing things up. Let me make this a little simpler:

True that God can clean-up PEOPLE but false that God can clean-up PAGANISM.

Those who worship God on His terms wash themselves of defilements that displeases God not that they wash the defilement that displeases God.

If you can't or won't see this, I'm afraid convincing you will be difficult, surprisingly.

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#1862 Jan 12, 2013
Theophilus wrote:
oops! "is that act found pagan and heather ever as we were before we believed?" Should have read: Is that act of being cleansed to be found as pagan or heathen.. even as we were found such before we believed?"
You and I were heathen pagans once... we were in rebellion... and what if we came to a saving knowledge on Christ on Christmas or Easter?? Or perhaps on our birthday? Would that not still be a day to celebrate personally???
Now as far as you honoring Christmas, Easter, National Holidays, Birthdays.. Anniversarys... etc.. You guys have something going on there! I'm cheap by nature... and I'm spending a fortune in cards, chocolates, and gifts. I'm thinking of claiming to be a JW just so I can save some money!!!:O) And if I owned a mega business... I'd hire you guys... I could save a fortune in paid days off and could keep operations running wide open. Good thoughts!
Why follow the world? Even cheaply?

:)

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