Court upholds ruling on conscientious...

Court upholds ruling on conscientious ob...

There are 143 comments on the Korea Herald story from Jul 9, 2014, titled Court upholds ruling on conscientious ob.... In it, Korea Herald reports that:

The Supreme Court sentenced a conscientious objector to 18 months in prison, officials said Wednesday, upholding past court judgments rejecting religious faith as a justifiable exemption to military duty.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Korea Herald.

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Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#1 Jul 9, 2014
I think it is funny that they won't do basic training because of firearms and grenades-I have seen JWs go to paintball competitiions and my entire family used to go hunting and target practicing...that they give them alternative duties in within the conscription is pretty generous considering that they are at war with N. Korea and lets face it, they aren't playing around. Those people are seriously scary. Its not just putting a face on patriotism, they have an actual threat that is critical to be prepared to defend themselves against.

JWs can be in the police... i really don't get how this is different.
Remnant 143999

Albuquerque, NM

#2 Jul 9, 2014
What is the most holy beloved idol/wtbts position on this issue?
Irish bob

Plymouth, MA

#3 Jul 10, 2014
From the J W perspective it is a matter of 'Being NO Part of the World"
To have their name inscribed into a military book is paramount to disobeying there Bible based conscience of remaining neutral in world affairs....Look no further then the Islamic world where there god demands all Muslims to fight the infidel to the death.Military service is of the same mindset except it is a flip/flop..They will Never hurt or harm you or anyone else. They would rather do jail time to please Jehovah then to pick up a weapon made for destruction, or in this scenario to shoot a human being.
As for a J W being a police man..[they carry a gun] Yes they allow that but that person has No privileges in their congregational service to Jehovah. ie. responsibilities within the congregation. They are just a member but are expected to go door to door with the group to obey Jehovah and his Christ, Jesus. "Go therefore into the world and preach the gospel of the Kingdom"..
So we the thinking person,we can see the difference about being a conscientious person and NOT do military service vs a policeman who serves to serve and protect the public...BIG difference here.

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#4 Jul 10, 2014
I still find it hard to believe that a jw would be or even be allowed to be a gun toting police officer.

And them giving the conscientious objector argument meant they objected to stopping hitler, object to stopping terrorist.....meaning they support such.

They do know that there are non combatant jobs in the military.

But it does make me wonder if there are any jw's who did join the draft and went back to being jw's if they made it home.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#5 Jul 10, 2014
Irish bob wrote:
From the J W perspective it is a matter of 'Being NO Part of the World"
To have their name inscribed into a military book is paramount to disobeying there Bible based conscience of remaining neutral in world affairs....Look no further then the Islamic world where there god demands all Muslims to fight the infidel to the death.Military service is of the same mindset except it is a flip/flop..They will Never hurt or harm you or anyone else. They would rather do jail time to please Jehovah then to pick up a weapon made for destruction, or in this scenario to shoot a human being.
As for a J W being a police man..[they carry a gun] Yes they allow that but that person has No privileges in their congregational service to Jehovah. ie. responsibilities within the congregation. They are just a member but are expected to go door to door with the group to obey Jehovah and his Christ, Jesus. "Go therefore into the world and preach the gospel of the Kingdom"..
So we the thinking person,we can see the difference about being a conscientious person and NOT do military service vs a policeman who serves to serve and protect the public...BIG difference here.
Is there a biblical basis for why a policeman can get no 'repsonsibilities' in the congregation? Or even why a person in the military should not be allowed tob baptized? The military WAS represented in the earliest Christian congregation with no restrictions. What does the current WT leadership know that, say, Peter, and Paul and John were not clued into?
little lamb

South Yarra, Australia

#6 Jul 10, 2014
Covered wrote:
<quoted text> Is there a biblical basis for why a policeman can get no 'repsonsibilities' in the congregation? Or even why a person in the military should not be allowed tob baptized? The military WAS represented in the earliest Christian congregation with no restrictions. What does the current WT leadership know that, say, Peter, and Paul and John were not clued into?
A true witness of Jehovah ..' learns war no more'

not like yourself as an Islamic that trains converts of other countries how to use firearms and send them back to their own countries to use weapons of fire on their own nation..talk about a great big hypocrite here in COVERED.

Yes fancy a Jihadist criticizing a witness for being free from blood guilt , when his religion is up to the neck in blood guilt.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#7 Jul 10, 2014
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
A true witness of Jehovah ..' learns war no more'
not like yourself as an Islamic that trains converts of other countries how to use firearms and send them back to their own countries to use weapons of fire on their own nation..talk about a great big hypocrite here in COVERED.
Yes fancy a Jihadist criticizing a witness for being free from blood guilt , when his religion is up to the neck in blood guilt.
Nice out of context quote-but there were two soldiers mentioned specifically in the early Christian congregation. What does the org know better than Peter, Paul or (heaven knows,) Jesus? None of them forbade soldiers from being baptised, nor were there any kind of restrictions given to them on the basis of their being soldiers.

Wow. you went from merely taking a snip of a verse out of context to going totally off the rails.

BTW, you just slandered me as I have NOT done any such thing as you just accused me of now. I expect an apology. I don't call random JWs abusive names or accuse them of wrong behavior. I'd ask you what bug went up your butt, but it is the same one that Aneirin and others have. I posed a question for which you have no reasonable answer.

Waiting for an apology.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#8 Jul 10, 2014
Oh, that verse you referred to in Isaiah? It speaks of AFTER the judgment. If you ever read anything in context, you would realize how you are jumping the gun quite a bit. Even though you think Jesus returned in 1914, nations are still taking up war against other nations.

Reading comprehension will generally help you in real bible study. It will hinder your WT participation, but that would be a good thing.

“BIBLE TRUTHS *NEVER* CHANGE”

Since: Aug 09

LET GO AND LET GOD

#9 Jul 10, 2014
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
A true witness of Jehovah ..' learns war no more'
.
Au contraire, LL!

Eph 4:24.....and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. 25 Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another.

Zephaniah 3:13
They will do no wrong; they will tell no lies. A deceitful tongue will not be found in their mouths. They will eat and lie down and no one will make them afraid."

Zech. 8:16 ....These are the things you should do: Speak the truth to one another. In the courts give real justiceĀ—the kind that brings peace.

So...despite the admonition given above... JWs are TAUGHT to learn theocratic warfare to deviously trick others and allow themselves to be dishonest to anyone and everyone they choose not to speak the truth to.
Remnant 143999

Albuquerque, NM

#10 Jul 10, 2014
What about baptised jw's that work for companies that have contracts with the US Gov. to make weapons?

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#11 Jul 11, 2014
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
A true witness of Jehovah ..' learns war no more'
not like yourself as an Islamic that trains converts of other countries how to use firearms and send them back to their own countries to use weapons of fire on their own nation..talk about a great big hypocrite here in COVERED.
Yes fancy a Jihadist criticizing a witness for being free from blood guilt , when his religion is up to the neck in blood guilt.
You and all of your brothers and sisters and the gods you worship are blood guilty.
DR SOS

Portland, OR

#12 Jul 11, 2014
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
A true witness of Jehovah ..' learns war no more'
not like yourself as an Islamic that trains converts of other countries how to use firearms and send them back to their own countries to use weapons of fire on their own nation..talk about a great big hypocrite here in COVERED.
Yes fancy a Jihadist criticizing a witness for being free from blood guilt , when his religion is up to the neck in blood guilt.
You are not a JW moron so your point is moot.

JWS believe in medical treatment with the exception of blood transfusions.

You believe in no medical treatment even though you are most likely lying which in any event the fact that you are openly against medical treatment still makes you a stain on the JWS.

try Christian Science.

“Tight lines”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#13 Jul 11, 2014
Ok... Lets put this to bed (again)
I cannot speak for South Korea but, in the United States, part of the oath of enlistment is swearing allegiance to the country. For most Witnesses, allegiance is to Jehovah.
One cannot serve two masters.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#14 Jul 11, 2014
florida native wrote:
Ok... Lets put this to bed (again)
I cannot speak for South Korea but, in the United States, part of the oath of enlistment is swearing allegiance to the country. For most Witnesses, allegiance is to Jehovah.
One cannot serve two masters.
We form allegiances and pacts all the time-through contracts, marriages and general agreements. In our allegience to our country, it is acknowledging our obligations to said country and basically stating that we won't act against it.

There is nothing in the Bible that prohibits Christians from serving their country or rulers (Ceasar) in military service. In fact there are two examples of military men being part of the church without conditions or restrictions. What we do on a personal level vs. what we do as an obligation to Ceasar are perhaps different, but there is no out in the Bible to pick and choose how we will repay Ceasar what Ceasar is owed and requires. That being said, we do make personal choices on this, conscience choices, all the time-but to totally dismiss 'serving our country' simply because of this allegience bit is ridiculous. You are already obligated BY Christ to offer that allegience to Ceasar-and Ceasar usually responds by respecting qualms about 'picking up arms' and offers alternatives to using weapons in the theater of war. Even So. korea has done this.

So, the WT/JWs are just trying to set themselves apart again-not to any real purpose towards God, but just to martyr a few young mens lives to prison or work camps to keep the GB happy to use them as examples of persecution.

That is just wrong. I could see a Christian or anyone saying that they just can't fight other men. I could not personally. But the training that is given is another thing altogether and plenty of JWs don't have an issue using guns for target practice or to serve in police forces. So, this entire thing is just about the GB trying to get attention.

Rutherford started this tactic and it has been an effective way to get free promotion at the small expense of the lives of some earnest young men-who are screwed no matter what they do in this regard. They can go against their stated obligation to their country, go to prison and get a criminal record or be expelled from their family and faith.

Some choice.

“Tight lines”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#15 Jul 11, 2014
Covered wrote:
<quoted text>
We form allegiances and pacts all the time-through contracts, marriages and general agreements. In our allegience to our country, it is acknowledging our obligations to said country and basically stating that we won't act against it.
There is nothing in the Bible that prohibits Christians from serving their country or rulers (Ceasar) in military service. In fact there are two examples of military men being part of the church without conditions or restrictions. What we do on a personal level vs. what we do as an obligation to Ceasar are perhaps different, but there is no out in the Bible to pick and choose how we will repay Ceasar what Ceasar is owed and requires. That being said, we do make personal choices on this, conscience choices, all the time-but to totally dismiss 'serving our country' simply because of this allegience bit is ridiculous. You are already obligated BY Christ to offer that allegience to Ceasar-and Ceasar usually responds by respecting qualms about 'picking up arms' and offers alternatives to using weapons in the theater of war. Even So. korea has done this.
So, the WT/JWs are just trying to set themselves apart again-not to any real purpose towards God, but just to martyr a few young mens lives to prison or work camps to keep the GB happy to use them as examples of persecution.
That is just wrong. I could see a Christian or anyone saying that they just can't fight other men. I could not personally. But the training that is given is another thing altogether and plenty of JWs don't have an issue using guns for target practice or to serve in police forces. So, this entire thing is just about the GB trying to get attention.
Rutherford started this tactic and it has been an effective way to get free promotion at the small expense of the lives of some earnest young men-who are screwed no matter what they do in this regard. They can go against their stated obligation to their country, go to prison and get a criminal record or be expelled from their family and faith.
Some choice.
First and foremost.
The oath of enlistment means that you swear to support and defend the constitution.
It also states that you will bear true faith and allegiance to the same.
Make whatever you wish of that.
Secondly.
The "non combat" job is a joke. There is no such thing. I saw more action as a computer tech then I ever did as an infantryman.
Jessica Lynch was a supply clerk when she was taken as POW.
11 " non-combatants" were killed, four wounded, and several taken POW.
and that is just one example.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#19 Jul 11, 2014
There are non-combatant jobs and alternative service that requires one to not even be in any part of the theater of war.

You have no issue with your loyalty promises to your wife or the org. Do you think that they supercede your loyalty to God?

You defend yourself in daily life. JWs hunt and do target practice all the time. Becoming a citizen is something many JWs do. How do they get out of EVERY aspect of declaring oneself to be committed to this country versus their old one?

And what part of the constitution goes against God? You agree to follow laws when you get gun permits and drivers licences. You agree to follow rules and laws just walking into a public school or signing your kids up to attend one. Your signature is a promise to someone. You can't promise to be a good citizen and uphold its laws? Then what are you doing here? Or anywhere? We still live in this world. The bit about beating swords into plowshares and not learning war anymore comes AFTER Jesus' return and the judgement. Until then, here we are. Living in our very real flawed world that we have to participate in.

AND finally, why do JWs make up rules about military service that Jesus did not state or imply? Why are they adding to the laws of God and making them critical to a JWs participation-it is wrong in principle, if you think that the bible actually matters. I don't know how you all get around that one, except by pretending you don't hear the question.

(frustrated, this is 3rd attempt to post and they keep ending up in the ether)

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#20 Jul 11, 2014
https://www.sss.gov/FSconsobj.htm

SERVICE AS A CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR
Two types of service are available to conscientious objectors, and the type assigned is determined by the individual's specific beliefs. The person who is opposed to any form of military service will be assigned to Alternative Service - described below. The person whose beliefs allow him to serve in the military but in a noncombatant capacity will serve in the Armed Forces but will not be assigned training or duties that include using weapons.

ALTERNATIVE SERVICE
Conscientious Objectors opposed to serving in the military will be placed in the Selective Service Alternative Service Program. This program attempts to match COs with local employers. Many types of jobs are available, however the job must be deemed to make a meaningful contribution to the maintenance of the national health, safety, and interest. Examples of Alternative Service are jobs in:

conservation

caring for the very young or very old

education

health care

Length of service in the program will equal the amount of time a man would have served in the military, usually 24 months.

Forbidding folks from doing these or laying on layers of guilt with the "conscience matter" dissembling tactic is wicked. Young men can choose to obey the law or they can be expelled from their family and all their friends.

Some choice.

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#21 Jul 11, 2014
florida native wrote:
<quoted text>
First and foremost.
The oath of enlistment means that you swear to support and defend the constitution.
It also states that you will bear true faith and allegiance to the same.
Make whatever you wish of that.
Secondly.
The "non combat" job is a joke. There is no such thing. I saw more action as a computer tech then I ever did as an infantryman.
Jessica Lynch was a supply clerk when she was taken as POW.
11 " non-combatants" were killed, four wounded, and several taken POW.
and that is just one example.
I personally knew a young man who enlisted in the Marines in a mail clerk position, he never saw a day of combat, never had to lift a gun against someone else.
DR SOS

Chicago, IL

#22 Jul 11, 2014
Matt9969 wrote:
<quoted text>
I personally knew a young man who enlisted in the Marines in a mail clerk position, he never saw a day of combat, never had to lift a gun against someone else.
true,

Problem is its a crap shoot because even if you sign up for a specific MOS your superiors are under no authority to guarantee that position under CERTAIN circumstances.

So it's a possibility after boot that you could get thrown in to an 0311 position.

Especially if you score high on the Rifle range and OTHER things such as PFT score.

It's part of common knowledge if you are planning to sign up for the service.
DR SOS

Portland, OR

#23 Jul 11, 2014
Covered wrote:
There are non-combatant jobs and alternative service that requires one to not even be in any part of the theater of war.
You have no issue with your loyalty promises to your wife or the org. Do you think that they supercede your loyalty to God?
You defend yourself in daily life. JWs hunt and do target practice all the time. Becoming a citizen is something many JWs do. How do they get out of EVERY aspect of declaring oneself to be committed to this country versus their old one?
And what part of the constitution goes against God? You agree to follow laws when you get gun permits and drivers licences. You agree to follow rules and laws just walking into a public school or signing your kids up to attend one. Your signature is a promise to someone. You can't promise to be a good citizen and uphold its laws? Then what are you doing here? Or anywhere? We still live in this world. The bit about beating swords into plowshares and not learning war anymore comes AFTER Jesus' return and the judgement. Until then, here we are. Living in our very real flawed world that we have to participate in.
AND finally, why do JWs make up rules about military service that Jesus did not state or imply? Why are they adding to the laws of God and making them critical to a JWs participation-it is wrong in principle, if you think that the bible actually matters. I don't know how you all get around that one, except by pretending you don't hear the question.
(frustrated, this is 3rd attempt to post and they keep ending up in the ether)
"There are non-combatant jobs"

You are NOT guaranteed the MOS you signed up for especially if the need for infantry or combatant jobs arises in wartime.

Look it up.

And if you join the military especially the marines you are trained to be first and foremost a rifleman.

You don't join the military with the expectation of NOT participating directly in war.

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