how about a non trinity discussion??
dee lightful

Easley, SC

#286 Jan 25, 2013
ihveit wrote:
<quoted text>
IHV OHH HWITH idiots i can do much worse..
but actually shit is only the english translation of dung
check it out
will
It is obvious that some JW's do not know what blasphemy means as they do it all the time.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#287 Jan 25, 2013
ihveit wrote:
ihv because the jws dont want to discuss this subject lets apart from them look at one of their pet verses that non of them have mentioned..
please turn your bible to 1th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first
jws usually love this verse but i guess it came up and bit them as usual..
but some will say " look he is coming with an archangels voice so that means JESUS IS MIKEY..
this is a very weak belief to say the least...
if he comes with the voice of an archangel does that make him also a trumpet? this is to funny when one looks at the whole verse..
but now what is the trump of god? according to the bible we shoul be able to determine this..
Re 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
in this verse we find trumpet which is gods voice spelled Salpigx in greek
hmmmm so lets back up a bit and turn our bibles back to 1 thes.. OHHHHH DARN its the same greek word...
JOHN TELLS US GOD VOICE IS AS A TRUMP OR TRUMPIT. YOU TAKE YOUR PICK
so i guess mikey is GOD? THINK ON THIS real long before you answer.. and please would you give us wt references if i am wrong anywheres
WILL
Will,
Here is your post again.

Here you erroneously say that this one at Rev 1:10 is God, but in reality it is Jesus speaking. Just so you can’t say that I left a verse out, I’ll post here with verse 11, although it doesn’t speak to the discussion at hand.

Revelation 1:10-13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11 saying,“Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash.

Now who is speaking, when this one is described,“like a son of man”, in verse 13?

It sure isn’t describing God Almighty, is it. So we see that Jesus is the one with the voice of a trumpet.

Thus your whole post is based on a false assumption.
little lamb

Australia

#288 Jan 25, 2013
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text>Hi Dave, your comments are always welcome.
1 Why would you want to assume anything?.The Trinity has nothing to do with the scripture of Jesus having all authority simply because whether Jesus is part of a Trinity or not doesn't change the scripture that states he has all authority in heaven and on earth.
.
Its interesting Dee..isn't it..because Jesus says " All authority has been given me in heaven and on earth"

Which means prior to his being sent by the Father he did not have all authority.

Prior to coming he was in 'godsform' but he did not have 'all authority"

yet the Father has always had all authority..because scripture tells us " There is no authority EXCEPT BY GOD..and all authority is set in its related positions BY GOD."

“email at [email protected]

Since: Dec 07

central louisiana

#289 Jan 25, 2013
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Will,
Here is your post again.
Here you erroneously say that this one at Rev 1:10 is God, but in reality it is Jesus speaking. Just so you can’t say that I left a verse out, I’ll post here with verse 11, although it doesn’t speak to the discussion at hand.
Revelation 1:10-13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11 saying,“Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash.
Now who is speaking, when this one is described,“like a son of man”, in verse 13?
It sure isn’t describing God Almighty, is it. So we see that Jesus is the one with the voice of a trumpet.
ihv john disagrees with you on the trumpet .. ITS GODS VOICE..but because you cant grasp the idea that JESUS IS GOD you cant understand this..

maybe later i will find the descriptions of rev and show you it applies to JESUS AND YHWH.. so i could say JESUS IS YHWH
will
Thus your whole post is based on a false assumption.
IHV false assumption my butt..

ALL YOU have to do is check out the description given in rev next to the one found in the OT.. you will see the same thing.. one is applied to JESUS and one to YHWH..

FIGURE IT OUT

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#290 Jan 26, 2013
ihveit wrote:
<quoted text>
ihv word meanings mean nothing to jws... they use them like coins they can spend where ever they want but now how does one tie the following into ALL..
12 “I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present. 13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming. 14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to YOU. 15 All the things that the Father has are mine. That is why I said he receives from what is mine and declares [it] to YOU. 16 In a little while YOU will behold me no longer, and, again, in a little while YOU will see me.”
PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE LAST TWO VERSES..
snd please dont put it off on a faulty translation since i am quoting the nwmt
will
Hi Ihveit

My comments:

(1)The following verse is self- explanatory 1 Corinthians 15:22-28(KJV)

"22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

(2)Jesus was granted “all authority” to put the house in order. But as verse 27&28 clearly states:

“27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

(3)These are a couple more scriptures that are similar: Hebrews 2:8-9 (KJV)

“8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

and

“Matthew 22:42-44 (KJV) 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?”

As you can see Paul went out of his way to emphasize that the “Father” is clearly excepted from that authority, and after everything is put in order Jesus will be subject to his Father.

Scripture interprets scripture; and when I read all the scriptures, it is clear to me, that the Son is subordinate to the Father. I should point out that there is an ongoing debate within the Orthodox community about subordination within the “Godhead”---commonly referred to as “Functional Subordination” but there are Scholars who say that “Functional Subordination” is nothing more than “Arianism”.

All the Best

Dave

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#291 Jan 26, 2013
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text>Hi Dave, your comments are always welcome.
1 Why would you want to assume anything?.The Trinity has nothing to do with the scripture of Jesus having all authority simply because whether Jesus is part of a Trinity or not doesn't change the scripture that states he has all authority in heaven and on earth. Introducing the Trinity here is nothing but trying to diverse from what the scripture actually says.
.
2. I believe the Father giving his Son all authority is placing him in an equal position as well can be seen with Jesus sitting on the throne next to the Father.

.
3. You asked,If one was "New" to the Bible, would this not be a good opportunity for “God the Son” to explain the “Trinity” by including such words as “OTHER” than “God the Father” and “God the Holy Spirit”? I would think if it was important to believe in the Trinity then there are many places where it could be done, but it wasn't done because it is not important to salvation and jesus having all authority is telling us, with or without the Trinity Jesus still has ALL authority... he is the one who will judge because he does have that authority.
I don't see the point of second guessing why Jesus did not do something. I can't read his mind just as no one else can.
.
4.i'm sorry but I don't understand what is the “legal doctrine of necessary implication” would apply?
.
5.is it not possible to concede that the word “ALL” can have limitations based on context ? ALL sounds definite to me and don't see how context can change it.If you think differently, please explain.
Hi Dee

Always enjoy debating you -- your feisty and stand your ground.

Anyway, tired and have some business early tomorrow, but should be able to get back to you ASAP.

All the Best

Dave
dee lightful

Easley, SC

#292 Jan 26, 2013
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
Its interesting Dee..isn't it..because Jesus says " All authority has been given me in heaven and on earth"
Which means prior to his being sent by the Father he did not have all authority.
Prior to coming he was in 'godsform' but he did not have 'all authority"
yet the Father has always had all authority..because scripture tells us " There is no authority EXCEPT BY GOD..and all authority is set in its related positions BY GOD."
Prior to Jesus birth was there any need for him to have all authority? we don't know what authority he has in heaven but since all things were made by and through him it must have been quite substantial, wouldn't you think?
.
IMO... Jesus was the WORD at that time and not yet the only begotten Son. He was with God from the beginning and seems to have an equal hand in all things.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#293 Jan 26, 2013
ihveit wrote:
<quoted text>
ihv john disagrees with you on the trumpet .. ITS GODS VOICE..but because you cant grasp the idea that JESUS IS GOD you cant understand this..
maybe later i will find the descriptions of rev and show you it applies to JESUS AND YHWH.. so i could say JESUS IS YHWH
will
<quoted text>
IHV false assumption my butt..
ALL YOU have to do is check out the description given in rev next to the one found in the OT.. you will see the same thing.. one is applied to JESUS and one to YHWH..
FIGURE IT OUT
Will,

You are the one making the statement, but without any Scriptural backing.

As Matt already has pointed out from verse 6 of chapter 1 of the Revelation, Jesus is described as having a God, his Father.

Rev 1:6 (NASB) and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

The description of the "Son of man" in these verses in no way tells us that Jesus is Jehovah of the OT. Jesus is is always described as sitting at the right hand of his God, Jehovah.

The burden of proof lies with you to provide your alledged verses that describes Jehovah in comparison to the description of Jesus.

In the mean time, we see that the "Son of man" is the one with the voice like a trumpet. And we see in addition to that, the Lord that descends with the voice of "the archangel" (singular) is Jesus.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

This voice that wakes those in death, is also described as Jesus' voice;

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

And exactly as John describes this, we see that Daniel describes this one also as Michael, "the great prince". How many times do we see Jesus described as the prince?

Daniel 12:1-2
“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#294 Jan 26, 2013
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text> All authority in HEAVEN AND EARTH seens to encompass everything!
I'll ask the question again.

Because your avoiding the obvious answer, as per usual.

Note the obvious:

Matthew 28:18(C) NIV

"...((( GIVEN TO )))--- ME..."

Obviously what does that simply and straight forwardly mean?

Now get the ( sense ) of it!

Compare:

Matthew 28:18 NIV

"...Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been -( given to )- me..."

With:

Acts 1:7

John Worsley's New Testament 1770

“...And He said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or seasons, WHICH THE FATHER HATH RESERVED IN HIS OWN [Gk.,( EXOUSIA )] POWER...”

The word Gk.,( EXOUSIA ) is rendered as:

“...AUTHORITY...”= New International Version.
“...JURISDICTION...”= Jonathan Mitchell NT.

In other words:

“...WHICH THE FATHER HATH ---((( RESERVED IN )))--- HIS OWN ((( AUTHORITY )))...”

This has been:“...((( RESERVED )))...” to the Father only.

As is made ----- clear ----- by Mark 13:32 or Matt 24:36.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#295 Jan 26, 2013
ihveit wrote:
<quoted text>
IHV OHH HWITH idiots i can do much worse..
but actually shit is only the english translation of dung
check it out
will
Your abusing scripture in order to abuse other's with profanity.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#296 Jan 26, 2013
ihveit wrote:
<quoted text>
ihv and you cant prove that mikey is really JESUS or the lord for that matter...
as to son of man where in the new test is it used of angels
will
Who's voice is heard at the resurrection?

John 5:25

New International Version (©1984)

"...I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear ((( THE VOICE ))) of the Son of God and those who hear will live..."

Compared with:

1st Thessalonian's 4:16

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)

"...For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel's ((( VOICE ))), and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first..."

Who's voice is heard at the ressurection?

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#297 Jan 26, 2013
Dave47 wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Dee
I Hope I am not butting in on your discussion with Matt.
In your opening to this post you said:
“Matthew 28:18 NIV
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
All means all or less than all to a JW who doesn't want all to mean all?
.
All authority in HEAVEN AND EARTH seens to encompass everything !”
My question, or point if you like, is this:
Assuming the “Trinity” is correct(for the sake of argument here) then:
(1)Would not Matt 28:18 exclude “Authority” over “God the Father” and “God the Holy Spirit”?
(2)Who gave “All Authority” to “Christ (God the Son)” does not the natural meaning imply that it was given by “God the Father” or “God the Holy Spirit” or by Both?
(3)Why would “God the Son” need to be given “All Authority”--- Is “God the Son” inferior and/or subordinate to some other God ie:-“God the Father” or “God the Holy Spirit”?
(4)Is “God the Son” not “Wholly God” or “co-equal” to the “God the Father” or “God the Holy Spirit”? Why does “God the Son” need permission, after all, Christ had already died and had been resurrected at the time he said this, and would not the argument that he was speaking as a “Human” no longer be able to be used as an explanation option?
(5)Doesn’t the word “Given” natural implication mean -- one who gives another “Authority” has not only the power to give it to another, but also had the “Authority” to, in fact do that?
(6)Would it be wrong in English to translate Matt 28:19 as follows:
”Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth [OTHER than over “God the Father” and “God the Holy Spirit”] has been given to me”
(a)Would it be correct to say that the word “OTHER” may be used in this situation but is unnecessary, as (“it goes without saying”) it would be obvious to anyone who believed the “Trinity”?
(b)If one was "New" to the Bible, would this not be a good opportunity for “God the Son” to explain the “Trinity” by including such words as “OTHER” than “God the Father” and “God the Holy Spirit”?
(c)Do you think that this is good situation where the “legal doctrine of necessary implication” would apply? Or should it have been clearly spelled out to remove all doubt?
(7)When you read the above, is it not possible to concede that the word “ALL” can have limitations based on context and/or the foundation of the subject been discussed?
All the Best
Dave
I agree with Deelightful, that your comments are always welcome and often very helpful, but in addition they are also balanced, objective, and dispassionate.

There is more to this than Acts 1:7.

Jesus own words add to the proof that: "...ALL..." or "...ALL THINGS..." can have limitations and is a relative statement, and is dependent on any:

1.) Broader context
2.) Further qualification that may be given

In this case Jesus: "...AUTHORITY..." is not only given to him, but it is:

"...SUBJECTED..." and "...PUT..." under his: "...AUTHORITY..." by some One else who is greater than he.

Note the further context and qualification in my next few posts.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#298 Jan 26, 2013
Compare:

1 CORINTHIANS 15:24-28: "...Afterwards [24.] the end, when he delivers up the kingdom to THE GOD AND FATHER, when he will abolishes all rule, and all authority and power.[25.] For he must reign until he will put all his enemies under his feet.[26.] The last enemy abolished is death.[27.] For he SUBORDINATED all things under his feet. But when he says that all things have been SUBORDINATED, it is clear that HE WHO SUBORDINATED ALL THINGS UNDER HIM, IS EXCEPTED.[28.] And when all things are made subordinate to him, then THE SON HIMSELF WILL ALSO BE MADE SUBORDINATE TO HIM WHO SUBORDINATED ALL THINGS TO HIM, so that God may be all in all...”-(ACV - The Holy Bible A Conservative Version)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#299 Jan 26, 2013
Kevin 321 wrote:
What did the Holy Spirit transfer into the womb of Mary?
You don't know???

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#300 Jan 26, 2013
The point being:

1st CORINTHIANS 15:27:

ACV - The Holy Bible A Conservative Version

"...HE WHO SUBORDINATED ALL THINGS UNDER HIM,((( IS EXCEPTED )))..."

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#301 Jan 26, 2013
Compare

1ST CORINTHIANS 15:27:

NEB - The New English Bible 1962

“...BUT IN SAYING 'ALL THINGS', IT CLEARLY MEANS TO ((( EXCLUDE GOD ))) WHO SUBORDINATES THEM..."

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#302 Jan 26, 2013
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text>
1. You do know the scripture state Michael, the archangel, is one of SEVERAL prince(((S)))?
..
2.You do realize the scripture only says there are more like him...he is not unique.
Why are you asking me to prove what is not there?
.
3. If you would look at the scripture without the WT glasses you would see the scripture would answer your question of "
what relation they stand to Michael thee "...
Can you see it says they are prince(((S))) like Michael!
.
4. Now if you were free to think for yourself , it makes sense to comprehend if these others are princes like Michael, an archangel they would also be archangels, just as Gods' own people, the Jews believe as well as Christians believe.
.
5. Even if you don't comprehend that it still shows that Michael cannot be Jesus as jESUS IS AN only ONE, unique, no other like him and Michael has others like him and therefore is not unique at all.
4.
Can we agree that Jesus and Michael are both princes and archangels?

And since Jesus became elevated due to his faithful course on Earth both being true to his Father and ransoming Mankind, I think we can also agree that makes him chief among the heavenly princes and archangels, yes?

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#303 Jan 26, 2013
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text>
Michael is identified in Daniel 12:1, as the great prince of Daniel’s people. Joshua meets this prince as the Israelites are about to enter the land of the Canaanites.
.
Scripture only associates Michael as guardian/ warrior of iSRAEL. There ate othe peoples that God wants to embrace you know and they have their own heavenly guardian angel which means their own prince.
Let's talk about Danial 12:1. MakesTheTruthHisOwn made a good point about it the other day.

Dan 12:1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

Now let's compare.

Michael (Dan 12:1) "The Great Prince"
Jesus (Isa 9:6) the "Prince of Peace"

Michael (Dan 12:1) will rise in charge of God's people.
Jesus (Dan 7:14) will be given kingship of a kingdom.

Michael (Dan 12:1) Will usher a time of trouble when he becomes king.
Jesus (Matt 24:21) Will usher a time of trouble during the time of his coming and the close of the age.

Michael (Dan 12:1) Some will be delivered whose name are written in the book.
Jesus (Matt 24:22; Re 3:5) Some will be delivered whose name are written in the book of life.

Coincidence?

:)

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#304 Jan 26, 2013
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text>
"...it must have been quite..."
An assumption without proof.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#305 Jan 26, 2013
Acts 1:7

“...WHICH THE FATHER HAS ---((( RESERVED IN )))--- HIS OWN ((( AUTHORITY )))...”

Compared with:

1st Corrinthian's 15:27

NEB - The New English Bible 1962

"...BUT IN SAYING ---'ALL THINGS',--- IT CLEARLY MEANS TO ((( EXCLUDE GOD ))) WHO SUBORDINATES THEM..."

Qualified further by Jesus own words:

Matthew 24:36

New International Version (©1984)

"...No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but ((( ONLY THE FATHER )))..."

Mark 13:32

New International Version (©1984)

"...No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but ((( ONLY THE FATHER )))..."

There's that word Gk.,( MONOS ) again!

Gk.,( MONOS ) is defined in BAGD:

“...THE ONLY ENTITY IN A CLASS ; ONLY, ALONE.[…] A --- MARKER OF LIMITATION --- ONLY, ALONE...”

-(Pages 658-659, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd Edition [BDAG], 2000.)

Did you get that?

"...A --- MARKER --- OF --- LIMITATION..."

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