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Pat

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#1676
Nov 11, 2013
 

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While no one argues that God is to be worshipped the question is does Jesus deserve to be worshipped was he ever worshipped
"And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean." -Matthew 8:2

"While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live." -Matthew 9:18

"Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God." -Matthew 14:33

"Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me." -Matthew 15:25

"Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him." -Matthew 20:20

"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him." -Matthew 28:9

"And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." -Matthew 28:17

"And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit...But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him" -Mark 5:2, 6

men were rebuked for worshipping men, angels, or created beings, but they were never rebuked for worshipping Jesus. Angels are even instructed by the Father to worship Jesus .

Hebrews 1:6 - Angels are instructed by God to worship Jesus.

John 5:23 - All men should honor the Son "just as" they honor the Father. To fail to give this honor to the Son is to fail to properly honor the Father.

Here we have clear scriptures that show both father and son receive worship that should clear up any doubts .
Tao itness

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#1677
Nov 11, 2013
 

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You have to wonder why the watchtower did not change its charter that its express purpose was the worship of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ! It is not that difficult to change a charter, so why did they keep it for 45 years after they disallowed witnesses to pray and worship to Jesus?
Though a Witness is bluntly told not to worship Jesus, the Charter was not amended to reflect this new doctrine until 1999. Therefore, for 45 years Witnesses were counselled against worshipping Jesus even though to do so was stated as the express reason for the existence of the Watchtower Society. This is despite the fact that it is considered idolatry to worship and pray to Jesus and will result in a Witness being disfellowshipped.

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#1678
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Pat wrote:
<quoted text>
YES IT IS TRUE MANY PLACE PRAISE AND WORSHIP ON TE SAME LEVEL while I suppose they could mean something different if one was inclined to see it that way .Jesus and the Father both received worship which is clear from other scriptures which I posted and both are praised so while the wording of 2 scriptires where one uses praise the other worship further reading of scriptures show BOTH father and son received worship and that should settle the matter .God bless .
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. The same can be said of worship and obeisance.. as they mean the same..no matter how some try to say no..
dee lightful

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#1679
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Schleptik wrote:
"favor the pronunciation," "not be exactly the way it was pronounced originally," all that sounds reasonable. It doesn't say "closer to the truth." Because the truth is that the sound J does not exist in Hebrew. The truth is that the name Jesus was not said by his mother with a J sound. And the truth is that when a group accepts a way of pronouncing something, that is the truth of recognizing a word.
DUH ,no kidding jesus mother didn't call her SON with an English translation of his Hebrew name!! Do have any idea how foolish you sound?

Since: Jul 10

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#1680
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Schleptik wrote:
<quoted text>So why didn't they use praise there instead of worship? BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO TRANSLATE THAT WAY, using a SYNONYM? You cannot explain why those very same translators did not repeat the words of the psalm, but inserted another word rather than praise -- that's the truth. Praise is not the same word as worship so why pretend it is, just like Jehovah is not Hebrew, dear, and Ioosus is not sounding like JESUS.
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. Hmm! so praising a person.. is okay??? and making your child a birthday cake isn't..?? In the birthday scenario you claim it gives to much attention to one person.. And like .. praise doesn't???

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

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#1681
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Well, all I did was point out that Psalm 148:2 does not contain the word worship there, and look what happened. :-) Just because I pointed out that the word worship is not there, either in Hebrew or, hmm, English. :-)
Pam

Bakersfield, CA

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#1682
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Schleptik wrote:
<quoted text>It doesn't matter when it comes to agreement in pronouncing the name in any language today. The letters remain the same. In fact when I look at the four Hebrew letters signified by YHWH, I think Yehweh, even though I said Yahweh yesterday because it is more common to think Yahweh then Yehweh, but really -- the Y sound in Hebrew is usually said as a J sound in English. And the original pronunciation is not necessary to know today, just as it is not necessary to say ivrit for Hebrew, although Hebrew speakers understand the word very well in Hebrew, and they understand Hebrew in English.:-)
So I guess we can call God Jayheowo and that is fine. That is my English version of YHWH.
You don't need to explain how consonants are pronounced in Hebrew.

In fact it is kinda funny to see you make the attempt. Jesus, English, Jesus Spanish. Same letters, different pronunciation.
Now think, the Jehovah's Witnesses insist on the word Jehovah as the English version of God's name and then in the same time say Yahweh is most likely more accurate.
Now which one is it?
The more accurate or the more inaccurate?

If it is so important to pronounce his name correctly and insist on a certain word being the true pronunciation, how can there be a more correct one?

In other words, Nobody alive today knows Gods real name other than the tetragrammaton.
Noone. They are spreading a made up name.
Pam

Bakersfield, CA

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#1683
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Schleptik wrote:
Well, all I did was point out that Psalm 148:2 does not contain the word worship there, and look what happened.:-) Just because I pointed out that the word worship is not there, either in Hebrew or, hmm, English.:-)
Actually she made a perfect point and you have not. Instead you got all flustered!

Instead, try to address what she said.
Pam

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#1684
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Tao itness wrote:
the New Testament was not written in Hebrew. Jesus and His apostles spoke Greek Jesus name is a translation from the Greek Iesous. Pronounced yazoos.
And, we KNOW how his name was pronounced, it has never been lost, and we know how it was spelled.

Jesus also spoke in Aramaic.
Pam

Bakersfield, CA

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#1685
Nov 11, 2013
 
Pat wrote:
While no one argues that God is to be worshipped the question is does Jesus deserve to be worshipped was he ever worshipped
"And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean." -Matthew 8:2
"While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live." -Matthew 9:18
"Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God." -Matthew 14:33
"Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me." -Matthew 15:25
"Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him." -Matthew 20:20
"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him." -Matthew 28:9
"And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." -Matthew 28:17
"And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit...But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him" -Mark 5:2, 6
men were rebuked for worshipping men, angels, or created beings, but they were never rebuked for worshipping Jesus. Angels are even instructed by the Father to worship Jesus .
Hebrews 1:6 - Angels are instructed by God to worship Jesus.
John 5:23 - All men should honor the Son "just as" they honor the Father. To fail to give this honor to the Son is to fail to properly honor the Father.
Here we have clear scriptures that show both father and son receive worship that should clear up any doubts .
These scriptures show that the people of that time had more than just a reverence for God's Son. They recognized him as having God's power.
This power came to him when he was baptized.

When the Holy Spirit came to him, he was made complete again. He was restored in power.
At least that is how I see what happened. But you know I have not developed the trinity concept.
Pat

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#1686
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Pam wrote:
<quoted text>These scriptures show that the people of that time had more than just a reverence for God's Son. They recognized him as having God's power.
This power came to him when he was baptized.
When the Holy Spirit came to him, he was made complete again. He was restored in power.
At least that is how I see what happened. But you know I have not developed the trinity concept.
YOU HAVEN'T well I am shocked PAM LOL .
What scriptures show is Jesus was worshipped so 2 scriptures did not match one used praise the other worship but when you read everything we see many times where it is recorded JESUS was worshipped and not once did he rebuke the one or ones doing it. How's the family ?
Pat

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#1687
Nov 11, 2013
 

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No one but GOD is to be worshipped yet here is what we find
"And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean." -Matthew 8:2

"While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live." -Matthew 9:18

"Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God." -Matthew 14:33

"Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me." -Matthew 15:25

"Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him." -Matthew 20:20

"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him." -Matthew 28:9

"And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." -Matthew 28:17

"And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit...But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him" -Mark 5:2, 6

Angels were told to worship Jesus

Hebrews 1:6

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

AND THEN WE HAVE THIS

Revelation 5:11-14

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”[a]

14 Then the four living creatures said,“Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.

“Read God's Word”

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#1688
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Pam wrote:
<quoted text>Actually she made a perfect point and you have not. Instead you got all flustered!
Instead, try to address what she said.
:-) No, I didn't get "all flustered!" Psalm 146:2 was paralleled with Hebrews 1:6, commenting by trinity believers that means both father and son are to be given worship by angels. I checked it out; those scriptures do not say that.

“Read God's Word”

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#1689
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Pat wrote:
<quoted text>
YOU HAVEN'T well I am shocked PAM LOL .
What scriptures show is Jesus was worshipped so 2 scriptures did not match one used praise the other worship but when you read everything we see many times where it is recorded JESUS was worshipped and not once did he rebuke the one or ones doing it. How's the family ?
LOL, you say,'so 2 scriptures did not match,' lol, ok. At least you said that, good that you were honest enough to say that.:-) Meantime -- to continue the thought since you were the one that wrote it as proof, and now at least you are saying they really don't match, have you any idea why they don't match? Why, in fact, the word worship is used instead of praise there? I mean you're the one trying to explain the trinity concept and now you are backing out, so it seems from a complete examination of these scriptures? But of course, if a person professes belief in a trinity, but then says that belief is not essential for salvation, I would think it would be difficult for that person to care about what the scriptures really say. Since you evidently don't really think it's that important by virtue of your not being willing to thoroughly discuss it, and yes, I was hoping for a reasonable, considerate discussion (no fluster), obviously the discussion is tabled. I don't blame you. But it was interesting, I must say.:-) You don't have to answer why the word worship was used at Hebrews, while the word praise was used in the psalm. It's ok, and we don't have to discuss it. but it was interesting. Have a nice night.
Pat

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#1690
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Schleptik wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL, you say,'so 2 scriptures did not match,' lol, ok. At least you said that, good that you were honest enough to say that.:-) Meantime -- to continue the thought since you were the one that wrote it as proof, and now at least you are saying they really don't match, have you any idea why they don't match? Why, in fact, the word worship is used instead of praise there? I mean you're the one trying to explain the trinity concept and now you are backing out, so it seems from a complete examination of these scriptures? But of course, if a person professes belief in a trinity, but then says that belief is not essential for salvation, I would think it would be difficult for that person to care about what the scriptures really say. Since you evidently don't really think it's that important by virtue of your not being willing to thoroughly discuss it, and yes, I was hoping for a reasonable, considerate discussion (no fluster), obviously the discussion is tabled. I don't blame you. But it was interesting, I must say.:-) You don't have to answer why the word worship was used at Hebrews, while the word praise was used in the psalm. It's ok, and we don't have to discuss it. but it was interesting. Have a nice night.
Firstly I was't discussing the Trinity I was discussing whether Jesus and His Father both received // receive worship and praise AND THEY DO .The 2 scriptures I used may have not been the best but since I have provided scripture showing both receive / recieved worship and praise .There are threads that discuss the Trinity head on over to one of them where the subject has been throuoghly discussed .

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#1691
Nov 12, 2013
 
Schleptik wrote:
Well, all I did was point out that Psalm 148:2 does not contain the word worship there, and look what happened.:-) Just because I pointed out that the word worship is not there, either in Hebrew or, hmm, English.:-)
.
.Apparently you mentioned that praise and worship weren't the same.

“Read God's Word”

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#1692
Nov 12, 2013
 

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Well, it was an interesting conversation.

“Mark 7:7; John 4-6”

Since: Oct 07

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#1693
Nov 12, 2013
 

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Schleptik wrote:
Well, it was an interesting conversation.
It wasn't a conversation. It was one sided. You plainly did not care what was said to you.

Just like periodicals offered to the world by the faithless and indiscreet Governor class of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Psalm 148 didn't use "worship?"

Interesting. But, so what?

Hebrews does use that word, when referencing the POINT of Psalm 148:2.

Therefore, the inspired writer of HEBREWS has EXPLAINED TO YOU what Psalm 148:2 means.

But, I doubt you will see it that way. Perhaps you will respond to another line of reason that could illuminate the point for you.

Let me try.

Directly.

To address your statement.

And explain, at the same time, why Hebrews DOES use "worship."

Psalm 148:1
NAS: from the heavens; Praise Him in the heights!
KJV: from the heavens: praise him in the heights.
INT: from the heavens Praise the heights

Psalm 148:2
NAS: Praise Him, all His angels;
KJV: Praise ye him, all his angels: praise
INT: Praise all his angels

Psalm 148:2
NAS: His angels; Praise Him, all
KJV: ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
INT: all his angels Praise all appointed time

Psalm 148:3
NAS: Praise Him, sun and moon;
KJV: Praise ye him, sun and moon:
INT: Praise sun and moon

Psalm 148:3
NAS: and moon; Praise Him, all
KJV: and moon: praise him, all ye stars
INT: sun and moon Praise all stars

Psalm 148:4
NAS: Praise Him, highest heavens,
KJV: Praise him, ye heavens of heavens,
INT: Praise highest heavens

http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/halluhu_1984.htm

What form of praise?

One that is used in the 16 occurrences found in the OT exclusively in reference to praise given to someone named YHWH. Obviously that is the name that is above every name, the name of the one who is, alone, our Savior.

Examine Psalm 148.

All of it.

Not snippets of verse from within it.

Who is being praised, and who is being instructed to praise that One?

Then examine Revelation 5:11-14. Who is doing the praising, and directly to WHOM?

Then consider that the English word "worship" comes from "woerth-scipe" that is, Middle-English for "worthship" a status recognized as deserved by those who are deemed of worth to receive honor, high praise, deep gratitude, extreme respect, blessings, great esteem, and glory.

Since Jesus is WORTHY to receive praise (directly) and thanks (directly) and honor (directly) and glory (directly) and blessings (directly) who is anyone to deny that someone OUGHT TO GIVE to Jesus what Jesus has been declared WORTHY to receive?

Who is any body of religious leaders to declare someone guilty of idolatry if they give what Revelation shows Jesus is WORTHY to receive?

False prophets; teachers of commands of men as doctrine. That's who does that sort of thing. Just as the Pharisees did.—Matthew 15; 23

Support their false teachings all you like. You have been given free will. But be warned, they are treacherous, they are deceptive, and they do know that what they are teaching as truth is NOT entirely supported by the Bible. I can easily prove that.
Tao itness

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#1694
Nov 12, 2013
 

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Almighty God was referred to by a number of names and titles in the Old Testament. Jews traditionally say there were seven names. One of these names was YHWH. The letters YHWH are named in Hebrew Yod-Heh-Waw-Heh. The Jewish Encyclopaedia states:

"Of the names of God in the Old Testament, that which occurs most frequently (6,823 times) is the so-called Tetragrammaton, Yhwh (), the distinctive personal name of the God of Israel. This name is commonly represented in modern translations by the form "Jehovah," which, however, is a philological impossibility." jewishencyclopedia.com (as of 25/09/2005)
Tao itness

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#1695
Nov 12, 2013
 
"There is almost universal consensus among scholars today that the sacred Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is to be vocalized and pronounced Yahweh. Probably the name means literally "He is."" New International Version: The Making of a Contemporary Translation CHAPTER 9: YHWH Sabaoth: "The Lord Almighty" Kenneth L. Barker
Jews recognise the divine name in modern times as Yahweh. The Jewish Encyclopedia published between 1901 and 1906 by Funk and Wagnalls includes the divine name as YAHWEH when translated into ENGLISH.

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