Jesus was disintegrated
Pat

AOL

#830 Jan 24, 2014
In Rev 1:18 we read
New International Version
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Now in Rev 2:8 WE READ
Revelation 2:8
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Rev.22:12 tells us the one who is coming is the Alpha and Omega. It is Jesus, the one who died and was resurrected who is coming, He is the same one who says “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last"

If these scriptures do not refer to Jesus then it bears the question , when did God the Father die ?
Pat

AOL

#831 Jan 24, 2014
Schleptik wrote:
<quoted text>
I have to agree with you there. God cannot die, can he? THEREFORE, Jesus is not God.
Now let's move on to another subject since we agree that Jesus is not God. Oh wait a minute! Did you say that Jesus is not God, or that Jesus did not "come here as God," meaning maybe he somehow was God-on-earth not functioning as God. Let's see if we can clear that up first.
If I have a learning disability where scripture is concerned, let me ask you --(since you are not "learning disabled when it comes to scripture") was Jesus "God on earth"? Was he mangod, as I've heard some very strong trinitarians say? Because if I understand you, you who do not have a learning disability re scripture, you said that Jesus was not (did not come here as) God on earth, unless I misunderstood your words, me being learning disabled and all. He came here as a man. So was he 100%man and 100%God in the same person? OR -- did he leave off his "godhood" when he came to earth to be born of a woman?
I have to agree with you there. God cannot die, can he? THEREFORE, Jesus is not God.
OH REALLY . Well how about this
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
John 1:1,14 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
That is how GOD THE WORD died
He died because it was part of God the Father's plan for our salvation , Jesus died because He chose to He says no one takes His life from Him He laid it down and can take it up again .Jesus died by choice for ungratefull you .He suffered the torture and pain for ungratefull YOU and why because He knew that many many others would be gratefull would accept his gift and would repent and gain eternal life , He didn't let ungratefull you stop Him He died for the ones the whosoevers that would accept Him and would live because of it .God the Father didn't die that was the function of THE WORD that was with God and was God , Jesus Christ .Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth it was always in God's plan our salvation was always in God mind and He made provisions for us right from the beginning He was looking out for us whosevers from the very beginning .I am sure you will have your chance at the Great White Throne Judgement to confess who Jesus is unfortunately it will be to late then .You say Jesus isn't God because He died , what a foolish thing to say but that's ok you will get your chance to confess Him .
Pat

AOL

#832 Jan 24, 2014
"Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; and might deliver those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in all that He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted."
You need to get your nose out of the WT and into God's word while you still can while you have time to save your life and repent while you can confess Him now as later will be to late .
God The WORD did die because it was planned that way from the very beginning .
John 1:1,14 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."



9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#833 Jan 24, 2014
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text>
Matthew 1:23 -“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated,“God with us.”
..
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
.
Jesus, the WORD was God but he took on the flesh of man so he could fulfill the prophecy.He did all the things his Father could do while a man but the man's body could and did die but the God of him lives on. Now every a child can understand that so why are you and Richardnak having such a hard time understand what is written?
OK, dee, you say Jesus, the man's body, died, but the God "of him" lives on. Yes, the "God of him" lives.(No man can see God at any time -- God is a spirit.) Pat was right when she said God cannot pay the penalty, Jesus paid that penalty. 2 Peter 3:18,19:- For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#834 Jan 24, 2014
Pat wrote:
<quoted text>
I have to agree with you there. God cannot die, can he? THEREFORE, Jesus is not God.
OH REALLY . Well how about this
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
John 1:1,14 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
That is how GOD THE WORD died
He died because it was part of God the Father's plan for our salvation , Jesus died because He chose to He says no one takes His life from Him He laid it down and can take it up again .Jesus died by choice for ungratefull you .He suffered the torture and pain for ungratefull YOU and why because He knew that many many others would be gratefull would accept his gift and would repent and gain eternal life , He didn't let ungratefull you stop Him He died for the ones the whosoevers that would accept Him and would live because of it .God the Father didn't die that was the function of THE WORD that was with God and was God , Jesus Christ .Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth it was always in God's plan our salvation was always in God mind and He made provisions for us right from the beginning He was looking out for us whosevers from the very beginning .I am sure you will have your chance at the Great White Throne Judgement to confess who Jesus is unfortunately it will be to late then .You say Jesus isn't God because He died , what a foolish thing to say but that's ok you will get your chance to confess Him .
Pat -- when Jesus came to the earth, he was not God, was he? Didn't you say he wasn't functioning as God? Do you think he really WAS God, but simply not functioning as God?
dee lightful

Easley, SC

#835 Jan 24, 2014
Richardnak wrote:
Ooops,
You are quoting Rev 1:8, but we have already proved that verse is regarding the One in verse 4,
Jesus isn't described as “the One who is, who was, and who is coming".
Jesus is described in verse 5;
Revelation 1:5
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To Him who loves us and has set us free from our sins by His blood,
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
You have proven nothing for scriptures tell us it is Jesus who is to come to judge mankind.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 –“For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.’”
.
John 5:20-30
King James Version (KJV)
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
.
Can you not see that scriptures do indeed tell you it is Jesus who is coming . Scriptures themselves prove the WT interpretation of verse four. Do you believe scripture or the WT for it seems they do not agree ?
dee lightful

Easley, SC

#836 Jan 24, 2014
correction:
Scriptures themselves prove the WT interpretation of verse four IS FALSE.
Pat

AOL

#837 Jan 24, 2014
Schleptik wrote:
<quoted text>
Pat -- when Jesus came to the earth, he was not God, was he? Didn't you say he wasn't functioning as God? Do you think he really WAS God, but simply not functioning as God?
John 1:1,14 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
AND the WORD WAS GOD , and the WORD became flesh , the man Jesus ,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
As a man , Jesus was in a humbled state, under the Law, and lower than the angels. As a result of these conditions, Jesus had to operate in agreement with His humbled condition.
The fact that Jesus moved in a limited context while accomplishing His ministry does not mean that He is not God. It means that He cooperated with the limitations of being a man so that He could do what He had to do and what he had to do was die for our sins in our place as our sacrifice .
Jesus came to earth as a man with the same limitaions we have thaT DOES NOT MEAN he wasn't THE WORD THAT WAS WITH GOD AND WAS GOD it means to do what was required of Him he had to be a man in every way as we are.HE BECAME AS ONE OF HIS BRETHEREN .While on earth Jesus functioned as a man how many times must we show you the same scriptures just to have you come back with an argument of some sort ?
Pat

AOL

#838 Jan 24, 2014
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text> You have proven nothing for scriptures tell us it is Jesus who is to come to judge mankind.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 –“For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.’”
.
John 5:20-30
King James Version (KJV)
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
.
Can you not see that scriptures do indeed tell you it is Jesus who is coming . Scriptures themselves prove the WT interpretation of verse four. Do you believe scripture or the WT for it seems they do not agree ?
None so blind as those who refuse to see .

Since: May 09

Chicago, IL

#839 Jan 24, 2014
Hello Richardnak,

Thanks for the reply.
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
The part that Jesus had in raising himself was his faith and his remaining faithful to the death, that guaranteed that his Father would raise him up from death.
Hebrews 5:7 (NKJV)
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,
If Jesus had any more part in raising himself from death, then he didn't really die. If he didn't really die, then his death was only faked.
The problem with this understanding is that it does not fit the context of John 2:19.

The verb raise - "egeiro" is in the SINGULAR FIRST person, FUTURE tense, ACTIVE voice, and INDICATIVE mood.

Here are some definitions of Koine Greek verbs:
- Active Voice
Grammatical voice indicates whether the subject is the performer of the action of the verb (active voice), or the subject is the recipient of the action (passive voice). If the subject of the sentence is executing the action, then the verb is referred to as being in the active voice.

- Indicative Mood
The indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's or speaker's perspective. Even if the writer is lying, he may state the action as if it is a fact, and thus the verb would be in the indicative mood. It may be action occurring in past, present, or future time. This 'statement of fact' can even be made with a negative adverb modifying the verb. This is in contrast to one of the other moods in which the writer/speaker may desire or ask for the action to take place.

Also to clarify your final point about Christ faking His death, How do you deal with
John 10:17-18 NKJV
17 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."
AND
Matthew 10:28 NKJV
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I chose NKJV because that was the version you used. If you have another preference, please let me know.
Richardnak wrote:
Hebrews 9:17
For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
Hebrews 9:14 NKJV
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

John 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

The breath of Christ is the eternal Spirit. If not, how else can you explain the above verse?

Peace,
Bob

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#840 Jan 24, 2014
Pat wrote:
In Rev 1:18 we read
New International Version
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Now in Rev 2:8 WE READ

Revelation 2:8
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Rev.22:12 tells us the one who is coming is the Alpha and Omega. It is Jesus, the one who died and was resurrected who is coming, He is the same one who says “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last"
If these scriptures do not refer to Jesus then it bears the question , when did God the Father die ?
You will never understand the Revelation until you have properly identified who is the Alpha and Omega, and what Jesus means when he says that he is the first and the last.

First of all, we note that "Alpha and Omega" is capitalized, showing this as a title of symbolic importance. But "first and the last" is not capitalized at Rev 2:8;

Revelation 2:8 (NIV)
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Jesus is plainly telling us that although he died, he is the first to be resurrected to heavenly life by his Father, and will be the last one raised up by his Father. Jesus further clarified that earlier in Rev 1:18

I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Yes, Jesus is the one that now holds the keys of death and Hades, and all others will be resurrected by him, as his Father has passed that privilege to His Son.

You have no proof that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, and that symbolic title has already been attributed to the Father who sits on the throne, at Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 21:5-6
Click on the link and see for yourself.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

The Greek scholars that produced the NIV, don't show red letters at these two verses, but notice that Revelation 1:11, is attributed to Jesus in red letters. Thus far, they are correct.

Chapter 22, is where everyone gets mixed up, and starts attributing proven words and things of the Father, and placing them as Jesus speaking.

They have firmly established that the Father is described as "him who is, and who was, and who is to come", and the one seated on the throne, and as the Alpha and Omega.

But now at the end of the Revelation, they lose track of what they have already established, and attribute words and titles and identifiers of the Father, and attribute them to Jesus?

Look at Revelation 21:5-6 and compare Revelation 22:12-13 on the link, and you can see that they now place the Father's symbolic meaning title, Alpha and Omega, and what are the Father's words, and attribute them to the Son.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

All through the Revelation, the Father is seen as the Alpha and Omega, is the one who is coming, the one seated on the throne, and with a little red ink, on the very last page of the Scriptures, they dictate to you what they know is a falsehood.

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#841 Jan 24, 2014
Bob (PassingTheTest), I would like to ask you a question.
Do you believe that Jesus went to heaven in a physical body? I was wondering how you look at 1 Peter 3:18, seeing that it says he was put to death in the flesh. Thank you.

Since: May 09

Chicago, IL

#842 Jan 24, 2014
Hello Schleptik,
Schleptik wrote:
Bob (PassingTheTest), I would like to ask you a question.
Do you believe that Jesus went to heaven in a physical body? I was wondering how you look at 1 Peter 3:18, seeing that it says he was put to death in the flesh. Thank you.
Yes Christ assended into heaven as a man resurrected in the very flesh He prophesized that he would raise up.

Revelation 5:3 KJV
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

I used the KJV here because it has not been deneutered in the phrase "no man" which has been changed to "no one" to be gender nonspecific.

The thing is if Christ is not a man, then who is able to open the book with the seven seals? All of revelation falls apart if Christ is not the MAN that opened the seven seal book (scroll).

Regarding 1 Peter 3:18:
This is similar to what 1 Corinthians 15:45 says. If you look at Pauls introduction in 1 Corinthians 15 we see the following:

1Co 15:1-5
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

Why does Paul state "He was buried"? By tying a pronoun to the object that was buried we also have that same object tied to what was raised up, otherwise the passage does not make any sense.

As evidence Paul uses Cephas then the "twelve" as they were titled. This brings us to Luke 24:13-32 and Luke 24:35-49.

Fully understanding that the physical body of Christ is raised up is " For I delivered to you as of first importance" as Paul puts in verse 3. Once we understand the absoluteness of Christ resurrection, THEN we can move forward with the rest of 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Peter 3:18.

Hope this helps.

Peace,
Bob

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#843 Jan 24, 2014
PassingTheTest wrote:
Hello Schleptik,
<quoted text>
Yes Christ assended into heaven as a man resurrected in the very flesh He prophesized that he would raise up.
...Regarding 1 Peter 3:18:
This is similar to what 1 Corinthians 15:45 says. If you look at Pauls introduction in 1 Corinthians 15 we see the following:
1Co 15:1-5
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
Why does Paul state "He was buried"? By tying a pronoun to the object that was buried we also have that same object tied to what was raised up, otherwise the passage does not make any sense.
As evidence Paul uses Cephas then the "twelve" as they were titled. This brings us to Luke 24:13-32 and Luke 24:35-49.
Fully understanding that the physical body of Christ is raised up is " For I delivered to you as of first importance" as Paul puts in verse 3. Once we understand the absoluteness of Christ resurrection, THEN we can move forward with the rest of 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Peter 3:18.
Hope this helps.
Peace,
Bob
(Thank you.) I'm trying to understand this (your point of view), because I have no problem understanding that Christ died and was resurrected, but I do have a problem in realizing that he went to heaven in glorified human flesh.(his own, original body with which he was born to the Virgin Mary.) I hope you will bear with me here.
First I am going to quote 1 Peter 3:18 from the NIV and see if I can get a better handle on your point of view, for which I thank you in advance for explaining it to me.

NIV 1 Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

The part I am centering on is the second sentence there -- he being put to death in the body but made alive in the spirit. I'd like to stay on this scripture for a moment, because doesn't it seem that the scripture is saying that Christ gave that body up (his body having been put to death), and was later made alive in a different form -- the spirit?
Pat

AOL

#844 Jan 24, 2014
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
You will never understand the Revelation until you have properly identified who is the Alpha and Omega, and what Jesus means when he says that he is the first and the last.
First of all, we note that "Alpha and Omega" is capitalized, showing this as a title of symbolic importance. But "first and the last" is not capitalized at Rev 2:8;
Revelation 2:8 (NIV)
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Jesus is plainly telling us that although he died, he is the first to be resurrected to heavenly life by his Father, and will be the last one raised up by his Father. Jesus further clarified that earlier in Rev 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Yes, Jesus is the one that now holds the keys of death and Hades, and all others will be resurrected by him, as his Father has passed that privilege to His Son.
You have no proof that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, and that symbolic title has already been attributed to the Father who sits on the throne, at Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 21:5-6
Click on the link and see for yourself.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
The Greek scholars that produced the NIV, don't show red letters at these two verses, but notice that Revelation 1:11, is attributed to Jesus in red letters. Thus far, they are correct.
Chapter 22, is where everyone gets mixed up, and starts attributing proven words and things of the Father, and placing them as Jesus speaking.
They have firmly established that the Father is described as "him who is, and who was, and who is to come", and the one seated on the throne, and as the Alpha and Omega.
But now at the end of the Revelation, they lose track of what they have already established, and attribute words and titles and identifiers of the Father, and attribute them to Jesus?
Look at Revelation 21:5-6 and compare Revelation 22:12-13 on the link, and you can see that they now place the Father's symbolic meaning title, Alpha and Omega, and what are the Father's words, and attribute them to the Son.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
All through the Revelation, the Father is seen as the Alpha and Omega, is the one who is coming, the one seated on the throne, and with a little red ink, on the very last page of the Scriptures, they dictate to you what they know is a falsehood.
New International Version
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Now in Rev 2:8 WE READ
Revelation 2:8
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Rev.22:12 tells us the one who is coming is the Alpha and Omega. It is Jesus, the one who died and was resurrected who is coming, He is the same one who says “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last"

If these scriptures do not refer to Jesus then it bears the question , when did God the Father die ?

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#845 Jan 25, 2014
Pat wrote:
<quoted text>
New International Version
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Now in Rev 2:8 WE READ
Revelation 2:8
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev.22:12 tells us the one who is coming is the Alpha and Omega. It is Jesus, the one who died and was resurrected who is coming, He is the same one who says “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last"
If these scriptures do not refer to Jesus then it bears the question , when did God the Father die ?
The One first mentioned at Revelation 1:4 and 1:8, is the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty, the Father.

Jesus isn't considered the Alpha and Omega ever in the Revelation. It is true that Jesus is said to be coming at Revelation 1:7, 2:16, 3:11 and at 22:20, but he is never identified as the Alpha and Omega, or the One Who is, Who was, and who is coming, Who is always seen seated on the throne, and the Lord God of the prophets. All of those identifiers and descriptions are of the Father.

Revelation 1:4 New International Version (NIV)
John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,

1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God,“who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:

“‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come.”

Revelation 22:6-7
6 The angel said to me,“These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”

7 “Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”

These are all attributed to the Father, Who never dies.

Revelation 22:12-13 even gives more identifiers as to Who is being spoken of;

12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Who is being identified?
Isaiah 40:10 (ASV)
Behold, the Lord Jehovah will come as a mighty one, and his arm will rule for him: Behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.

Psalm 90:1-2
O Jehovah, you have been our dwelling place throughout all generations.
2 Before the mountains were born
Or you brought forth the earth and the productive land,
From everlasting to everlasting, you are God.

Jehovah, the Father, the only true God from everlasting to everlasting, before any other gods and the last one left of all gods.

The Father is identified as the Alpha and Omega at both Revelation 1:8 and 21:5-6, the One seated on the throne and the Beginning and the End, is also the One described at Revelation 22:12-13.

To believe that at this last occurrence that the Alpha and Omega is all of a sudden Jesus, is a complete lie.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
Pat

AOL

#846 Jan 25, 2014
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
The One first mentioned at Revelation 1:4 and 1:8, is the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty, the Father.
Jesus isn't considered the Alpha and Omega ever in the Revelation. It is true that Jesus is said to be coming at Revelation 1:7, 2:16, 3:11 and at 22:20, but he is never identified as the Alpha and Omega, or the One Who is, Who was, and who is coming, Who is always seen seated on the throne, and the Lord God of the prophets. All of those identifiers and descriptions are of the Father.
Revelation 1:4 New International Version (NIV)
John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God,“who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come.”
Revelation 22:6-7
6 The angel said to me,“These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”
7 “Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”
These are all attributed to the Father, Who never dies.
Revelation 22:12-13 even gives more identifiers as to Who is being spoken of;
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Who is being identified?
Isaiah 40:10 (ASV)
Behold, the Lord Jehovah will come as a mighty one, and his arm will rule for him: Behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.
Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.
Psalm 90:1-2
O Jehovah, you have been our dwelling place throughout all generations.
2 Before the mountains were born
Or you brought forth the earth and the productive land,
From everlasting to everlasting, you are God.
Jehovah, the Father, the only true God from everlasting to everlasting, before any other gods and the last one left of all gods.
The Father is identified as the Alpha and Omega at both Revelation 1:8 and 21:5-6, the One seated on the throne and the Beginning and the End, is also the One described at Revelation 22:12-13.
To believe that at this last occurrence that the Alpha and Omega is all of a sudden Jesus, is a complete lie.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
THIS IS JESUS
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Now in Rev 2:8 WE READ
Revelation 2:8
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev.22:12 tells us the one who is coming is the Alpha and Omega. It is Jesus, the one who died and was resurrected .
JESUS was the one that was dead and came alive , Jesus is the one who is coming on the clouds Jesus holds the keys and that is no lie . Both the Father and Jesus are called the alpha and omega a title they share and that is no lie either .

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#847 Jan 25, 2014
Pat, before I go on, I would like to know from your answers -- you quoting John 1:1-14 to say that Jesus is God, don't you? And you base your answer on the fact that the Word was "God" in heaven, right? Perhaps I missed something, but just to make sure of your belief regarding what the Bible says, I know John 1:1 says that the Word was with God, and was God (King James Version). But then the Word came to earth. Born as a little baby to the Virgin Mary. My question is this, because I have not seen you answer it, as I say, maybe I missed it. Was Jesus God on earth? Thank you.

Since: May 09

Round Lake, IL

#848 Jan 25, 2014
Hello Schleptik,
Schleptik wrote:
<quoted text>
(Thank you.) I'm trying to understand this (your point of view), because I have no problem understanding that Christ died and was resurrected, but I do have a problem in realizing that he went to heaven in glorified human flesh.(his own, original body with which he was born to the Virgin Mary.) I hope you will bear with me here.
First I am going to quote 1 Peter 3:18 from the NIV and see if I can get a better handle on your point of view, for which I thank you in advance for explaining it to me.
NIV 1 Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
The part I am centering on is the second sentence there -- he being put to death in the body but made alive in the spirit. I'd like to stay on this scripture for a moment, because doesn't it seem that the scripture is saying that Christ gave that body up (his body having been put to death), and was later made alive in a different form -- the spirit?
We can just look at the context of the current [assage and see that "spirit" is not a spirit body.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

Christ is made alive in the spirit;
Christ proclaims to the spirits in prison;
the "spirits in prison" are the people that are with Noah, for only eight persons (making them part of the set of total spirits being implied in verse 19).

So the same made alive in the spirit that pertains to Christ is the same level of human spirits in prison (of which Noah and his family escaped the "prison" part).

For us to speculate further I believe we will have to go to 1 Corinthians 15, because Peter ALSO states the following in his second letter:

2 Peter 3:14-16 NASB
14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Even Peter admits the difficulty in fully understanding Paul's letters, they are so difficult that many distort what they actually mean. And what does this say for those that argue that the Trinity is too complicated if even Peter admits that Paul's teachings are very very deep.

Peace,
Bob

“Delivering the Gospel”

Since: Feb 09

Location hidden

#849 Jan 25, 2014
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
As I am sure that you are well aware, the 144,000 are spiritual Jews, not necessarily natural Jews.
They are called new Jerusalem, a new creation and the Israel of God.
Galatians 6:15-16 (NASB)
For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
.
If the are not all Jews,then why list the tribes?

Rev.7:4-8
” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;[a]
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

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