What place do the Urantia papers have on a JW discussion board?

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Since: Jan 12

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#21
Jul 23, 2012
 

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Open Minded Bible Student wrote:
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What is the Urantia Book? I dont think I heard of it...
Good question. And by the way I'd like to give kudos to MakesTheTruthHis Own. Excellent posts.
The Urantia Book is a new revelation to our world from God's government via his angels and their records, particularly of Jesus' life and teachings on Earth. Earth, by the way, is called "Urantia" in the book, so "The Urantia Book" is "The Earth Book." It claims to be the 5th "epochal" revelation of religious truth to our world. Jesus' visit was the 4th. Melchizedek before that 4000 years ago was the 3rd. Adam and Eve, 38,000 years ago was the 2nd. And 500,000 years ago the first "Planetary Prince" arrived with his staff. We now know him as The Devil. He went bad in The Lucifer Rebellion. The Devil, Lucifer, Satan and Beelzebub are all different personalities. As noted, The Devil was our original world ruler (for God's government). Lucifer was the "System Sovereign," God's government's ruler over 1000 worlds. Satan was Lucifer's right hand man. Beelzebub was a minor player in the Rebellion.
I've had a Urantia Book since 1959 when my grandmother in Chicago sent me one. She and her sister were involved in the reception/materialization of the book. The book has been printed since 1955.

I see sidgi wrote:
"There is nothing "Christ-like" in the Urantia book."

How would sidgi know that? He hasn't read it. It's a ridiculous statement if one hasn't read The Urantia Book. The last 700 pages of the book are "The Life and Teachings of Jesus." This record is taken from human sources when they are adequate and correct, and supplemented by the records that God's angels keep.

sidgi says:
"Jesus words were written down by his disciples."

Jesus words and doings were also perfectly recorded by God's angels. And now we have that record.

sidgi says:
"Some were eye witnesses, some, just close enough that their investigative work wasn't that far removed from his lifetime."

Oh, but they were removed. The human records weren't written down until 30-60 years after Jesus died. And that, from memory and stories that were going around. And we don't have ANY original copies of any of the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

sidgi says:
"The Urantia book was put together in the 1950's by obvious frauds trying to gain some notoriety."

Oh my God! sidgi knows nothing of the story or the people surrounding The Urantia Book, he's taking wild shots in the dark, lashing out. Well, it's worse than that. Since I know he doesn't know what he's talking about with regard to The Urantia Book and the people involved, I also know that his above statement about "obvious frauds trying to gain some notoriety" is what is called "BEARING FALSE WITNESS" and bearing false witness is a sin, a violation of one of the ten commandments. Look at that. He doesn't know any of the people involved or anything about them, and yet he's bearing false witness against them by accusing them of being "obvious frauds trying to gain some notoriety". The Pharisees did the same to Jesus, they said, "He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?" (John 10:20) False witness. It's a sin.

sidgi says:
"Anyone that would swallow that garbage to the extent of taking their own life, would be mentally unbalanced. Either you are a liar, or you've swallowed someone else' lie, or you feel guilty for any contribution you may have made to his demise. Personally, I still believe the 1st choice."

What garbage? 2000 years and human nature hasn't changed, we still have Pharisees with us.'Your religion is not what I believe (even though I haven't read it) so it's garbage.' I would not want to be in the position of having mindlessly called God's new revelation to our world "garbage" simply because it was not what I already believed. Nor does sidgi know why anyone took their own life, but it's been suggested, I think, that it was because of Jehovah's Witness un-Christian, un-Godly shunning.

Since: Jan 12

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#22
Jul 23, 2012
 
Open Minded Bible Student wrote:
<quoted text>
What is the Urantia Book? I dont think I heard of it...
I answered this but so far the reply hasn't appeared here. I'll check tomorrow and see if it's here by then. If not, I'll repost it.

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#23
Jul 23, 2012
 

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Furchizedek wrote:
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sidgi wrote: "I guess the only reason someone is here promoting it, is because at one time they were a Jehovah's Witness."
Amazing. I read almost the exact same sentence the other day on a Mormon forum. The guy there said the same thing, that the reason someone was promoting The Urantia Book there was because they were probably a disgruntled former Mormon. And how can anyone use the derogatory term, "Urantia peddler" when his own religion goes door to door peddling Jehovah's Witnessism?(What do you call it?)
as I am neither Jehovah's Witness nor Morman, and I am not peddling anything to anyone. Your point doesn't asses my position. I am just someone on a discussion board that values what the bible does say. If you wish to be a humanist, or demon worshiper, or a part of any other of many, non-bible valuing pursuits, that's your business. But I am just calling it what it is, in that regard.

As far as I'm concerned, there are only two spiritual choices. One is straight forward, and the other is in any other direction that might be chosen. God's way can be discerned by the things made, and the bible. Satan's way can be discerned by what has become of the things God has made, and the bible. It takes time and honest effort to determine which is which. The most that any book, offering something different or apart from the bible could be, would be a shortcut to the knowledge of God. There is nothing shorter than straight forward.

sidgi

Since: Jan 12

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#24
Jul 23, 2012
 

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>sidgi wrote: "...I am neither Jehovah's Witness nor Morman, and I am not peddling anything to anyone."

Yes you are. Whatever you are you are certainly peddling the bible, or your or your sect's interpretation of it. Look, below, at the bible box you're in. You said, "Or apart from the bible..." There you go. That's the box you're in and that's what you're pushing regardless of what religion label you apply or don't apply to yourself. You're not a Jew, so you must be some flavor of Christian, now trying to operate under the label radar, but still, nothing is valid according to you, "apart from the bible." I'm new here so maybe I missed it, you say you're not a JW or a Mormon, well, what are you? YOU ARE SOMETHING, Christian-like of some sort, you're up to your neck in "the bible."

And I want to press you on your bearing false witness against people you know nothing of, calling them "obvious frauds" and so forth as you did. Don't you understand that is a violation of the commandment? If you were in a court of law and you had done that, the Judge would have said, "On what basis do you call these people "obvious frauds, Mr. sedgi?" And your reply would have been, "Your Honor, they are obvious frauds because they don't believe in or teach what I believe in, therefore they must be frauds." Please address this issue of your bearing false witness. Whatever religion you are, I'm sure whatever bible based Christian sect you belong to the commandment against bearing false witness still applies. Don't you see it applies to YOU and that you are doing exactly what it says "Thou shalt not..." do? Are you blinded by self righteousness? Why is it that hypocrites and blasphemers and false witness bearers can't see their own hypocrisy, blasphemy, and false witness?

>sidgi wrote: Your point doesn't asses my position. I am just someone on a discussion board that values what the bible does say. If you wish to be a humanist, or demon worshiper, or a part of any other of many, non-bible valuing pursuits, that's your business. But I am just calling it what it is, in that regard.

I am a humanist or demon worshipper because I don't believe in the bible as you do? Because I believe in God from a different book? I believe in God, I believe in the Trinity, I believe in the Divinity of Jesus, I believe Jesus is the Son of God, and I believe in the Resurrection, and you're calling me a humanist and demon worshiper? You could well be in a lot of trouble on Judgment Day.

Mat 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Who is Jesus referring to? Jews? Muslims? Hindus? Buddhists? None of those prophecy in His name or claim to cast out devils or to have done many wonderful works. Only fundamentalist Christians do those things.

>sidgi wrote: As far as I'm concerned, there are only two spiritual choices. One is straight forward,

Let me guess. "straight forward" is your way, right? It's your bible way, is that right? No other way on earth is "straight forward," just your way and your bible way, right?

>sidgi wrote: and the other is in any other direction that might be chosen.

Which is not your way, right?

>sidgi wrote: God's way can be discerned by the things made, and the bible.

Your way and God's way and the bible's way are the same, right? Anyone who doesn't believe as you do is not on the right path, right?

>sidgi wrote: Satan's way can be discerned by what has become of the things God has made, and the bible. It takes time and honest effort to determine which is which. The most that any book, offering something different or apart from the bible could be, would be a shortcut to the knowledge of God. There is nothing shorter than straight forward.
sidgi

There it is again, the box you're in: "apart from the bible"

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#25
Jul 24, 2012
 
Good morning furchizedek, thank you for your post.

Ill look into the urantia when I have the time to get my hands one one... Im VERY curious! Ill read it before making any judgement...

SIDGI believes in God and Christ but doesnt believe in organized religion... which im starting to think that way aswell...

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#26
Jul 24, 2012
 
I have read a little of this book which was linked on here by Futerman a few months ago, no where do they give any recognistion of the ransom sacrifice.

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#27
Jul 24, 2012
 

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Furchizedek,

I readily admit that I recommend the bible as the word of God. I don't peddle any religion, however. If anything, I peddle the notion that someone might be able to find out the things God requires from mankind by reading it, learning from it, and living a life in cooperation with the things learned.

You say that is a box. All you've offered is another box. Is your box somehow prettier? That is what Satan offered Eve; a prettier box. Yet look what happened, because she was deceived. Someone went out and wrote the urantia book.

sidgi

Since: Jan 12

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#28
Jul 24, 2012
 
Open Minded Bible Student wrote:
Good morning furchizedek, thank you for your post.
Ill look into the urantia when I have the time to get my hands one one... Im VERY curious! Ill read it before making any judgement...
SIDGI believes in God and Christ but doesnt believe in organized religion... which im starting to think that way aswell...
Great, take a look, give it a read. That's all anyone can ask. If you read 10 pages a day you'll have it done in 6 months.

"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." Lao-tzu

I say, skip the Foreword for now, start at Paper 1, The Universal Father, or perhaps at Paper 121 and read to the end.

And by the way, The Urantia Book is NOT organized religion. It's just a new revelation from God's government, a book. There is nothing to join, no priests, no churches, etc.

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#29
Jul 24, 2012
 
I started reading it but wow, that's a pretty thick book (smile), but interesting.

Since: Mar 12

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#30
Jul 24, 2012
 
Furchizedek wrote:
<quoted text>
Great, take a look, give it a read. That's all anyone can ask. If you read 10 pages a day you'll have it done in 6 months.
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." Lao-tzu
I say, skip the Foreword for now, start at Paper 1, The Universal Father, or perhaps at Paper 121 and read to the end.
And by the way, The Urantia Book is NOT organized religion. It's just a new revelation from God's government, a book. There is nothing to join, no priests, no churches, etc.
Does the Urantia book not state that Jesus' death was not needed for forgiveness of sins? That it was only the ignorance of man that crucified Jesus, and that sins would have been forgiven either way?

Since: Jan 12

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#31
Jul 24, 2012
 
array wrote:
I have read a little of this book which was linked on here by Futerman a few months ago, no where do they give any recognistion of the ransom sacrifice.
You are almost correct, and here's the deal using the bible:

"And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people." (Matthew 9:35)

"And it came to pass...that Jesus went throughout every city and village, preaching and showing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him..." (Luke 8:1)(Also see Matthew 4:23, Mark 1:14, and Luke 4:43.)

Do you see? Jesus and the 12 real apostles preached the gospel to the people. At the feeding of the 5000 there were over 10,000 people (see Matthew 14:21) hearing Jesus and the 12 real apostles preach "the gospel of the kingdom" and "the glad tidings of the kingdom of God." And this was just one of many such stops on the preaching tours. The real gospel comes from Jesus. No where in the New Testament can you show anyplace where Jesus and his 12 real, personally chosen and trained apostles ever preached any gospel to the people regarding Jesus as a "ransom sacrifice" or that the "Good News" was that Jesus had come to die for their sins, while Jesus was alive. Your "ransom sacrifice" gospel does not come from Jesus. It's derived from the doctrines of men. It's not in The Urantia Book because it's false and Jesus never taught it. If Jesus had come to be a "ransom-sacrifice" He would have said, "“To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should be a ransom-sacrifice and die for the sins of the world.”(John 18:37)

Also, "regular" Christians do not use the "ransom" idea. That's pretty much a Jehovah's Witness emphasis. A ransom is paid to a kidnapper to secure the release of hostages. A "sacrifice" is a completely different idea. You won't hear regular Christians emphasizing the ransom idea. You probably should pick one or the other. It may be wrongly recorded in the bible that Jesus spoke privately to his apostles about being a ransom, and that his blood was for "the remission of sins," but it never happened and He certainly never told the people that.

So what did Jesus tell the people? What did they need to know? They needed to know how to attain salvation, eternal life:

[b]...Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?[/b](Luke 10:25)

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself." (Luke 10:27)

The above constitutes "doing the Father's will," loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself. And Jesus says: "Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21) Love your fellow man and love God and YOU WILL have eternal life, you will be saved. That's Jesus' gospel. And that's why the "ransom-sacrifice" is not in The Urantia Book, or why The Urantia Book does not validate it.

The Urantia Book actually does "give recognition of the ransom sacrifice." It says it's wrong.

188:4.3 Mortal man was never the property of the archdeceivers. Jesus did not die to ransom man from the clutch of the apostate rulers and fallen princes of the spheres. The Father in heaven never conceived of such crass injustice as damning a mortal soul because of the evildoing of his ancestors. Neither was the Master’s death on the cross a sacrifice which consisted in an effort to pay God a debt which mankind had come to owe him.

188:4.4 Before Jesus lived on earth, you might possibly have been justified in believing in such a God, but not since the Master lived and died among your fellow mortals. Moses taught the dignity and justice of a Creator God; but Jesus portrayed the love and mercy of a heavenly Father.

Since: Jan 12

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#32
Jul 24, 2012
 
Hey, isn't there a Preview" feature?
Kevin 321 wrote:
<quoted text>
Does the Urantia book not state that Jesus' death was not needed for forgiveness of sins? That it was only the ignorance of man that crucified Jesus, and that sins would have been forgiven either way?
Um, yes and no. Yes, Jesus' death was not needed for the forgiveness of sins. But then Jesus says that himself in the New Testament:

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:" (Mat 6:14)

Then Jesus further states that if you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven, apparently no matter who you think died for your sins:

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Mat 6:15)

What got Jesus crucified is that he ran afoul of the religious authorities, and they decided they needed to get rid of him and shut him up. He did not need to die THAT way, it's just the way it worked out. Even today, if you make yourself a thorn in the side of the religious or political authorities, they will find a way to shut you up. Jehovah's Witnesses and Amish and others do this by shunning. The Catholic Church used to do it by burning people at the stake. Entrenched authority does not take well to being challenged or contradicted.

The real gospel is not about sins being forgiven, it's about attaining salvation by doing the Father's will. If one is doing the Father's will to the best of their ability and is right with God, of course their sins will be forgiven. We should be less concerned about US and OUR sins and more concerned with God and with doing His will.

Elijah and Enoch did the Father's will perfectly. They aligned their wills with God's will so perfectly that they "fused" with the fragment of God that is within everyone.(Luke 17:21) When this happened they were "translated" (Heb 11:5) in a "chariot of [spiritual] fire" (2Ki 2:11) directly to the "mansions" (aka, "heaven")(John 14:2), bypassing normal mortal death. The Urantia Book talks about these "mansions" as "The Mansion Worlds," one through seven. Paul talks about a man who ascended to the third Mansion World, or the "third heaven." (2Co 12:2)

And if Jesus died for our sins, why would they have to be forgiven? I'm just asking. If He died for them, they'd be gone, washed away in the blood of the Lamb, and so on and so forth.

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