“Is that the best you can do?”

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#41 Apr 4, 2013
HopeReigns wrote:
<quoted text>
And with that statement "my morals are higher than god's in this instance" you have made yourself higher the God and aligned yourself with Satan the adversary.
May God have mercy on your soul.
Hope
Do you support stoning?

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#42 Apr 5, 2013
Reader519 wrote:
<quoted text>
You really are stupid. You are pretending there is only two solutions, today's situation or stoning people to death. That is not the case at all.
However, I still do not have to propose another system to know that the barbaric practice of stoning to death is immoral.
Thus, my morals are higher than god's in this instance.
You are saying I am stupid, because you can't come up with a better solution. I haven't defended God, in any of this, because God doesn't need defending. God just is.

So you are saying there must have been a better way of handling immorality than stoning. And yet God's law was presented to the Jews, and they accepted it. God delivered them from the Egyptians because of a promise he had made to Abraham. He then gave them the option of becoming his people. He laid out the conditions, and they accepted them. Now, if you will, show the place, and the conditions regarding adultery in the bible, where it has God requiring adulterers to be stoned to death. Let's examine it, together.

I remember you are familiar with the bible, and since your claim is that God is being immoral in his requiring adulterers to be stoned, you couldn't possibly be making the whole thing up, because that would be immoral. You would then have to come up with a new posting identity, because you will have completely lost any credibility.

sidgi

“Believe & Salvation is yours”

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#43 Apr 5, 2013
Reader519 wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you support stoning?
If I were Jewish, lived before Christ, then Yes I would for that was God's law given to the Israelites.

But since Christ came He stated 2 commandments that all the laws are hung on:
1. Love God with your whole being
2. Love your neighbor

So would I stone an adulterer today? No, for the law of Loving my neighbor takes precedence.

Agape
Hope
dr fill

Mount Prospect, IL

#44 Apr 5, 2013
sidgi wrote:
<quoted text>
Mary was betrothed to Joseph. if she hadn't withdrawn that betrothal, evidently it was considered the same as adultery. It's the only thing I can figure out about it. The bible doesn't say.
sidgi
Whats the big deal,Mary had a little fling with a field hand and got knocked up.Then she covered it up with a magical story.Aint nothing new.DAH!!!!?

“Is that the best you can do?”

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#45 Apr 6, 2013
sidgi wrote:
<quoted text>
You are saying I am stupid, because you can't come up with a better solution. I haven't defended God, in any of this, because God doesn't need defending. God just is.
Lol, god doesn't need defending. Fail.
sidgi wrote:
So you are saying there must have been a better way of handling immorality than stoning. And yet God's law was presented to the Jews, and they accepted it.
I am saying that god does not change. If stoning is immoral now, it was immoral then.
sidgi wrote:
God delivered them from the Egyptians because of a promise he had made to Abraham. He then gave them the option of becoming his people.
Modern archeology has shown that this didn't happen.
sidgi wrote:
He laid out the conditions, and they accepted them. Now, if you will, show the place, and the conditions regarding adultery in the bible, where it has God requiring adulterers to be stoned to death. Let's examine it, together.
Deut 22:
"If, though, this thing has proved to be the truth, evidence of virginity was not found in the girl,they must also bring the girl out to the entrance of her father’s house, and the men of her city must pelt her with stones, and she must die, because she has committed a disgraceful folly in Israel by committing prostitution in the house of her father. So you must clear away what is bad from your midst."

And you'll remember that, in the bible, engagement was treated the same as marriage in the sense that it was a promise and that cheating then is considered adultery.

“In case there happened to be a virgin girl engaged to a man, and a man actually found her in the city and lay down with her, YOU&#8203; must also bring them both out to the gate of that city and pelt them with stones, and they must die,"
sidgi wrote:
I remember you are familiar with the bible, and since your claim is that God is being immoral in his requiring adulterers to be stoned, you couldn't possibly be making the whole thing up, because that would be immoral. You would then have to come up with a new posting identity, because you will have completely lost any credibility.
sidgi
So, sidgi is a Christian that thinks that stoning is acceptable because the bible says so.

Critical thinking skills = zero.

Accepted practice in the world is that stoning is wrong. Defend your stance.

“Is that the best you can do?”

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#46 Apr 6, 2013
HopeReigns wrote:
<quoted text>
If I were Jewish, lived before Christ, then Yes I would for that was God's law given to the Israelites.
But since Christ came He stated 2 commandments that all the laws are hung on:
1. Love God with your whole being
2. Love your neighbor
So would I stone an adulterer today? No, for the law of Loving my neighbor takes precedence.
Agape
Hope
If stoning is immoral now, it was immoral then. People are the product of their surroundings, and we cannot judge people from back then based upon standards that accepted today. Under that guideline, I would not claim moral superiority to a villager from that era who stoned someone.

However, god is supposed to transcend time and be a moral constant. He put those rules in his "PERFECT" LAW code. Therefore, I am morally superior to god in this instance.

“Believe & Salvation is yours”

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#47 Apr 6, 2013
Reader519 wrote:
<quoted text>
If stoning is immoral now, it was immoral then. People are the product of their surroundings, and we cannot judge people from back then based upon standards that accepted today. Under that guideline, I would not claim moral superiority to a villager from that era who stoned someone.
However, god is supposed to transcend time and be a moral constant. He put those rules in his "PERFECT" LAW code. Therefore, I am morally superior to god in this instance.
John 8:
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Why didn't Jesus pick up a stone? He was without sin. What was he teaching?

Matt 22:
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I think YHWH has been more than patient with the likes of YOU. HE have given ALL of us ample opportunity to repent and what do you do? YOU slap HIM down, build yourself up to being better than HIM.

Hope

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#48 Apr 6, 2013
Reader519 wrote:
<quoted text>
Lol, god doesn't need defending. Fail.
<quoted text>
I am saying that god does not change. If stoning is immoral now, it was immoral then.
<quoted text>
Modern archeology has shown that this didn't happen.
<quoted text>
Deut 22:
"If, though, this thing has proved to be the truth, evidence of virginity was not found in the girl,they must also bring the girl out to the entrance of her father’s house, and the men of her city must pelt her with stones, and she must die, because she has committed a disgraceful folly in Israel by committing prostitution in the house of her father. So you must clear away what is bad from your midst."
And you'll remember that, in the bible, engagement was treated the same as marriage in the sense that it was a promise and that cheating then is considered adultery.
“In case there happened to be a virgin girl engaged to a man, and a man actually found her in the city and lay down with her, YOU&#8203; must also bring them both out to the gate of that city and pelt them with stones, and they must die,"
<quoted text>
So, sidgi is a Christian that thinks that stoning is acceptable because the bible says so.
Critical thinking skills = zero.
Accepted practice in the world is that stoning is wrong. Defend your stance.
I believe you can't come up with any evidence that God required stoning as a punishment for adultery. I think you made the whole thing up, or one of your atheist contemporaries did, and you swallowed it hook line and sinker. I also don't believe you have the personal honor to own up to it. Self respect is a thing missing in today's world, and liberals are bereft of the quality more so than others. Mostly they wouldn't know a principle if it came up and bit them on the nose, as they often do. Why would anyone pay attention to what someone like you, lacking personal integrity, has to say. Anyone that reads this thread that pays any further attention to you, is lacking heart, as the bible says.

sidgi

“Is that the best you can do?”

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#49 Apr 6, 2013
sidgi wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe you can't come up with any evidence that God required stoning as a punishment for adultery. I think you made the whole thing up, or one of your atheist contemporaries did, and you swallowed it hook line and sinker. I also don't believe you have the personal honor to own up to it. Self respect is a thing missing in today's world, and liberals are bereft of the quality more so than others. Mostly they wouldn't know a principle if it came up and bit them on the nose, as they often do. Why would anyone pay attention to what someone like you, lacking personal integrity, has to say. Anyone that reads this thread that pays any further attention to you, is lacking heart, as the bible says.
sidgi
Great Christian trait you have there. Denial of the facts.

Evidence:

John 8 cited above. Did Jesus dispute that the Pharisees were wrong in their committing the woman to death for adultery on a point of law? No.

This scripture mentions the penalty:

Lev 20:10 ‘Now a man who commits adultery with another man’s wife is one who commits adultery with the wife of his fellowman. He should be put to death without fail, the adulterer and the adulteress as well.'

This scripture mentions the method:

Duet 22

"YOU&#8203; must also bring them both out to the gate of that city and pelt them with stones, and they must die, the girl for the reason that she did not scream in the city, and the man for the reason that he humiliated the wife of his fellowman. So you must clear away what is evil from your midst."

This distraction is finished.

I can't believe that any human would support god in these barbaric laws. Yet you do.

Shame on you.

“Is that the best you can do?”

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#50 Apr 6, 2013
HopeReigns wrote:
<quoted text>
John 8:
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Why didn't Jesus pick up a stone? He was without sin. What was he teaching?
Matt 22:
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I think YHWH has been more than patient with the likes of YOU. HE have given ALL of us ample opportunity to repent and what do you do? YOU slap HIM down, build yourself up to being better than HIM.
Hope
You completely glossed over the fact that your god commanded by law that people be tortured by stoning for adultery.

Do you think this is moral?
little lamb

Australia

#51 Apr 6, 2013
Reader519 wrote:
<quoted text>
You completely glossed over the fact that your god commanded by law that people be tortured by stoning for adultery.
Do you think this is moral?
Absolutely ..God is moral

Proverbs 19 [16] " Chastise your son while there exists HOPE , and to the putting of him to DEATH do not lift up your soulful desire '

you see where you err..is you think this life is all there is..and that is only for seventy or eighty years.

You are SHORT SIGHTED.

God is more interested in our eternal life...and the death penalty for a sin..gives the promise of a future .....

A future life , that Gods word calls the " life that is LIFE indeed"

1 timothy 6 [19] In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#52 Apr 7, 2013
Reader519 wrote:
<quoted text>
Great Christian trait you have there. Denial of the facts.
Evidence:
John 8 cited above. Did Jesus dispute that the Pharisees were wrong in their committing the woman to death for adultery on a point of law? No.
This scripture mentions the penalty:
Lev 20:10 ‘Now a man who commits adultery with another man’s wife is one who commits adultery with the wife of his fellowman. He should be put to death without fail, the adulterer and the adulteress as well.'
This scripture mentions the method:
Duet 22
"YOU&#8203; must also bring them both out to the gate of that city and pelt them with stones, and they must die, the girl for the reason that she did not scream in the city, and the man for the reason that he humiliated the wife of his fellowman. So you must clear away what is evil from your midst."
This distraction is finished.
I can't believe that any human would support god in these barbaric laws. Yet you do.
Shame on you.
like in the other other thread, this claim is built entirely on your faulty opinion. In John 8, no one was stoned. If God's law called for stoning, embarrassment wouldn't have stopped them. In fact, there is some question as to the authenticity of that account, in Leviticus there isn't a method of killing them mentioned, and in Deuteronomy, there is a specific set of circumstances that had to be met, and actual marriage was not one of them. Let's see, She was engaged not married, she had to be a virgin, it had to have occurred in a city, she had to have not screamed during the intercourse.

Like all of you accusations, the mountain becomes a mole-hill under examination. Your judgement of God shows up to be a hatred based on your not wishing to be governed by something outside of yourself. Well, that is what Satan offered Eve, and you seem to have inherited her traits, like many in this world.

sidgi
Daniel a Slave of Christ

Odessa, TX

#53 Apr 7, 2013
Who has plucked out an eye, or cut of a hand? The law served to prove all human deserve death and nothing more for their secret sins of their hearts. Christ went beyond the physical thinking of the evil fleshly mind in killing people for outwardly breaking the law, into the heart that lust for the opposite sex.

The solution pluck out the eye, but no one looking at the opposite sex in their right mind every plucked out and eye. Only the mentally ill would do such a thing, not one person recorded in the bible plucked out their own eye, not even the apostles of Christ Jesus.

Matt. 5:27 "You have heard that it was said,{TR adds "to the ancients,"}'You shall not commit adultery;'{Exodus 20:14} 5:28 but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. 5:29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna.{or, Hell} 5:30 If your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off, and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna.{or, Hell}

Amazing how we can talk about stoning of an adulterous person, but cannot pluck out our own eye! What is the point, mankind, none of us as sinner can enter into the God's Kingdom by our own self-righteousness, not even the man mention on this forum that wanted to throw the first stone at his adulterous wife, he failed to pluck out his own eye first.

So all adult human at some point are adulterous, all people covet, and hate their brothers in their heart, no matter what their false religion tells them, and all human our sinners, making them lawless at times.

1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins also commits lawlessness. Sin is lawlessness.

So who will deliver us from such an unrighteous person, good question?

1 Peter 3:21 This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Rom.7:21 I find then the law, that, to me, while I desire to do good, evil is present. 7:22 For I delight in God's law after the inward man, 7:23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God's law, but with the flesh, the sin's law.

Matt. 7:1 "Don't judge, so that you won't be judged. 7:2 For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you.

Read: A Deep Hole
http://jwsstraighttalk.squarespace.com/discus...

“Is that the best you can do?”

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#54 Apr 7, 2013
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
Absolutely ..God is moral
Proverbs 19 [16] " Chastise your son while there exists HOPE , and to the putting of him to DEATH do not lift up your soulful desire '
you see where you err..is you think this life is all there is..and that is only for seventy or eighty years.
You are SHORT SIGHTED.
God is more interested in our eternal life...and the death penalty for a sin..gives the promise of a future .....
A future life , that Gods word calls the " life that is LIFE indeed"
1 timothy 6 [19] In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.
None of what you said shows that stoning is a moral act. If it is a moral act, it will stand alone without reference to god.

If stoning is moral, then why do not modern western religions do it today?

“Is that the best you can do?”

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#55 Apr 7, 2013
sidgi wrote:
<quoted text>
like in the other other thread, this claim is built entirely on your faulty opinion. In John 8, no one was stoned. If God's law called for stoning, embarrassment wouldn't have stopped them. In fact, there is some question as to the authenticity of that account, in Leviticus there isn't a method of killing them mentioned, and in Deuteronomy, there is a specific set of circumstances that had to be met, and actual marriage was not one of them. Let's see, She was engaged not married, she had to be a virgin, it had to have occurred in a city, she had to have not screamed during the intercourse.
I didn't claim that anyone was stoned in John 8. I said that Jesus did not defend her on the basis that it was against the law, but on a moral ground.(morals that you apparently lack)

Valid evidence.

Deut 22

"man for the reason that he humiliated the wife of his fellowman"

The wife of his fellow man. Adultery.

More valid evidence.
Try to read and keep up. I am sick of correcting you on the basics.
sidgi wrote:
Like all of you accusations, the mountain becomes a mole-hill under examination. Your judgement of God shows up to be a hatred based on your not wishing to be governed by something outside of yourself. Well, that is what Satan offered Eve, and you seem to have inherited her traits, like many in this world.
sidgi
Absolutely hilarious!!

I make a mountain of a molehill, yet you are the one that is defending your argument by claiming that the bible says it is OK to stone for a specific set of fornication related purposes, but not for adultery.(I've shown where you were wrong, yet again).

Talk about insincere. It is obvious you have no intention of mounting any sort of coherent defense of your position.

Answer the question and back it up with non-biblical data: is stoning moral?

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#56 Apr 7, 2013
Reader519 wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't claim that anyone was stoned in John 8. I said that Jesus did not defend her on the basis that it was against the law, but on a moral ground.(morals that you apparently lack)
Valid evidence.
Deut 22
"man for the reason that he humiliated the wife of his fellowman"
The wife of his fellow man. Adultery.
More valid evidence.
Try to read and keep up. I am sick of correcting you on the basics.
<quoted text>
Absolutely hilarious!!
I make a mountain of a molehill, yet you are the one that is defending your argument by claiming that the bible says it is OK to stone for a specific set of fornication related purposes, but not for adultery.(I've shown where you were wrong, yet again).
Talk about insincere. It is obvious you have no intention of mounting any sort of coherent defense of your position.
Answer the question and back it up with non-biblical data: is stoning moral?
Whether you claimed anyone was stoned in John 8 or not is of no import. You used the example there as evidence that God's law required stoning as the punishment for adultery. Neither you, nor the Pharisees in the account provided a scripture proving such a thing. Like you, they made that claim. If that was the prescribed punishment, I am sure that Jesus would have told them to deal with her accordingly.

This particular law in Deuteronomy22 was a hypothetical. An if such a thing happened, kind of thing. It was restricted to an unmarried (engaged) virgin, I guess she could be considered the man's "future" wife. Therefore, being that she was not his wife in the real sense, but only a wife designate, her betrothed had some rights regarding her, but it was not technically adultery. It was many wrong things...betrayal, fraudulent behavior, fornication, prostitution, and possibly others, but only in your opinion, adultery. God did not label her so. Perhaps like you, the Pharisees took that law as a license for stoning adulterers.

The bible also required stoning for bestiality, spiritual adultery (going after other Gods) and other things. God didn't make a law, but put 5 cities worth of people to death for gross sexual immorality, brought an entire earth to complete ruin over immorality between angels an humans, and the resulting violence. I guess there are enough things that could be pointed out, where God used violent means to eradicate uncleanness from his domain, I don't see why you would have to make such a big deal out of something relying merely on your opinion for validity.

I haven't had to defend anything, because of your invalid claims. As far as that goes, your argument seems to be with God, not me. I merely pointed out your error.

sidgi

“Is that the best you can do?”

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#57 Apr 7, 2013
I can't have an argument with god, he's imaginary.

You are disingenuous at best, deceitful at worst.

Rather than trying to defend this god you worship, this ogre of an individual who, BY LAW, requires the stoning of individuals for things that are not even crimes in our society today, you try do derail the conversation to a point of whether it is adultery or not. Get a fucking life.

Is stoning immoral. You are to chickenshit to answer. You are caught between a rock and a hard place. If you answer no, then you show that you are either a liar or have the morals of a killer. If you answer yes then you prove to me that your morals are higher than the god that you worship.

Rather than being straightforward and actually discussing the issue, you do your best to obfuscate it.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#58 Apr 7, 2013
Reader519 wrote:
I can't have an argument with god, he's imaginary.
You are disingenuous at best, deceitful at worst.
Rather than trying to defend this god you worship, this ogre of an individual who, BY LAW, requires the stoning of individuals for things that are not even crimes in our society today, you try do derail the conversation to a point of whether it is adultery or not. Get a fucking life.
Is stoning immoral. You are to chickenshit to answer. You are caught between a rock and a hard place. If you answer no, then you show that you are either a liar or have the morals of a killer. If you answer yes then you prove to me that your morals are higher than the god that you worship.
Rather than being straightforward and actually discussing the issue, you do your best to obfuscate it.
no, stoning is not immoral, it is violent. The ones doing the stoning may, or may not be immoral, depending on the circumstances. You are not very insightful when it comes to governance. Scientists that predicate their science on the funding entities that hire them are immoral. you ought to look up the meaning of words before you use them.

sidgi

“Is that the best you can do?”

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#59 Apr 7, 2013
sidgi wrote:
but only in your opinion, adultery.
sidgi
"The seriousness of the sin of adultery can be seen in several ways. Under the law of Moses the penalty was death by stoning."
http://www.bible.ca/s-adultery.htm

"In the Old Testament of the Bible, the punishment for adultery was stoning."
http://www.ehow.com/about_4700206_what-punish...

"Unlawful intercourse with a woman betrothed to a man was adultery, because the betrothed woman was deemed as inviolable as the married woman. The punishment for this crime was stoning to death"
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/86...

"Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such [It was a case under verse 22 of Deut. xxii. Stoning was the legal method of capital punishment]: what then sayest thou of her? "
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/t...

"Stonings were presumably the standard form of judicial execution in biblical times"
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/j...

Yeah, just me.

Are you done obfuscating yet?

Answer the question, is stoning a moral act?

“Is that the best you can do?”

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#60 Apr 7, 2013
sidgi wrote:
<quoted text>
no, stoning is not immoral, it is violent.
Then your morality is higher than the morality of the god you worship. That should give you pause to think.
sidgi wrote:
The ones doing the stoning may, or may not be immoral, depending on the circumstances.
Stoning in bible times was carried out by people who were the product of their era. To judge them based upon our standards of morality is wrong. HOWEVER, god is not a product of that era, unless you believe that he was a construct of the human mind.

Stoning is immoral, as you agreed. Then one who prescribes stoning should also be deemed immoral.

That leaves you with a couple of choices.

1. Your god is immoral.
2. Your god is a construct of men from that era and reflects their life.
3. Those bible verses don't reflect your god, and the bible has been contaminated with man's thoughts from the beginning.

How do you reconcile your god requiring an immoral act?
sidgi wrote:
You are not very insightful when it comes to governance. Scientists that predicate their science on the funding entities that hire them are immoral. you ought to look up the meaning of words before you use them.
sidgi
Diversion. Fail.

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