The WTBTS' Biggest Scam.......jjj

The WTBTS' Biggest Scam.......jjj

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JJJ

Australia

#1 May 6, 2009
All Kingdom Halls and the land they are built on belong to the WTBTS Corporation.....

That would make them very wealthy real estate tycoons…….no?

The thing is...... they don't pay for any of it!!!!! Funds are raised, materials and labour are supplied and donated by the rank and file.

Pretty sweet deal ay..... but the best is yet to come.

Any short fall in funds can be borrowed by from the WTBTS..... so far so good.... but here is the best bit.

THE WTBTS CHARGES INTEREST ON THE AMOUNTS BORROWED TO PURCHASE LAND AND BUILD KHs THAT BELONG TO THEM....THE WTBTS...

Do we all understand the above?...... this is the same as going to the bank to borrow money to by land and build and home...... you make all the repayments including interest....... BUT THE BANK OWNS THE LAND AND THE HOME ……... EVEN AFTER THE LOAN INCLUDING ALL INTEREST IS REPAID!!!!

I have not even mentioned the fact that the4 scriptures say not to charge your brother interest, and one would certainly think that principle would apply in connection to building KHs.....

But for the WTBTS to charge their brothers interest because they borrowed to purchase land and build a KH which belong to the lender, the WTBTS....

Well that is immoral and really…. should be criminal.
MeMe

Red Hill, PA

#2 May 6, 2009
They don't charge interest anymore, at least thats what i was told by a witness!
JJJ

Australia

#3 May 6, 2009
Well I was just talking to an elder about 20 minutes before I posted the above and he tells me they do......but then I will not argue....

The fact remains that did......and whether they do or not now, it still does not change the fact that the rank and file donate funds, labour and materials and if they borrow from the WTBTS they have to repay the loan.....

And yet the subject of the borrowing, the land & KH, belongs to the WTBTS......

If we knew friends that entered into an agreement like that with any other agency.....

We'd think they were fools and had been conned and ripped off....

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#4 May 6, 2009
So what you are saying is that the WBTS is a religious organisation that accepts donations with which it builds its meeting houses.

You are saying that the WBTS is not a housing loan company.

What's new?

If you donate money for your church to build a meeting hall then why would you expect to own the meeting hall afterwards?

That's no a donation that's an investment.

If you want to invest in property then go to a mortgage company.

If you want your church to build halls then donate money to your church.

But please, please don't confuse your church with your mortgage company.

Only stupid people do that.

Since: Aug 07

Location hidden

#5 May 6, 2009
they should never have charged interest in the first place its unloving and unscriptual.

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#6 May 6, 2009
MeMe wrote:
They don't charge interest anymore, at least thats what i was told by a witness!
Well the laws of economics suggest that they *should* charge interest otherwise the congregation will be paying back LESS money then they borrowed.

The whole argument presented above relies on peoples blind ignorance of anything financial.
JJJ

Australia

#7 May 6, 2009
Not talking about donations Gareth boy....

talking about borrowing money from the WTBTS, having to repay it with interest (and the wTBTS make a big deal about how low the interest rate is compared to commercial rates) back to the WTBTS for their investment....

Donations are one thing..... asking your brothers to borrow from them with interest to donate the land and hall back to them which then has capital growth.......

Now that's not stupid.....it is immoral and should be a crime...

By the way Gareth..... do you mind if I call you Garry?

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#8 May 6, 2009
noahsday wrote:
they should never have charged interest in the first place its unloving and unscriptual.
Of course they should charge interest. That is not exactly the same as "usury".

If you don't track the change in the value of money then you end up paying back less then you borrowed.

Since: Aug 07

Location hidden

#9 May 6, 2009
He knows what you were talking about, he deliberately evades the main points, and spins.

He reminds me of a sleazy politician.

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#10 May 6, 2009
JJJ wrote:
Not talking about donations Gareth boy....
talking about borrowing money from the WTBTS, having to repay it with interest (and the wTBTS make a big deal about how low the interest rate is compared to commercial rates) back to the WTBTS for their investment....
Donations are one thing..... asking your brothers to borrow from them with interest to donate the land and hall back to them which then has capital growth.......
Now that's not stupid.....it is immoral and should be a crime...
By the way Gareth..... do you mind if I call you Garry?
No JJJ, its donations.

There are 2 ways to manage the purchase of property through donations.

1) Collect enough donations to buy a property in 10 years.

2) Buy a property NOW and retrospectively donate for 10 years.

Method #1 leaves you with no meeting place for 10 years.

Method 2 allows you to hold meeting whilst the donations are being collected.

It is called being faithful AND wise. Rather than being unfaithful and stupid.
MeMe

Red Hill, PA

#11 May 6, 2009
I guess they lied to me yet again about not charging interest anymore, jjj?
JJJ

Australia

#12 May 6, 2009
Gareth wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course they should charge interest. That is not exactly the same as "usury".
If you don't track the change in the value of money then you end up paying back less then you borrowed.
Well Gary, no doubt among all your other qualifications you have an economics degree as well....

But I would have thought that the fact that the WTBTS were getting the subject of the borrowing, the land and the KH, and added to the fact that in most cases most of the value of the asset was donated in the first place.....

Would more than make up for the decreasing value of money...... and in many cases, in fact in most cases they would gain on currency exhange rates anyway against the US dollar.

I suppose this will be another subject that it will be useless to argue with Gareth..... the MERE bible student as no doubt he has also studied extensively this topic with the WTBTS' accountants and fianciers......

And of course Gareth..... the WTBTS do claim to be a non profit organisation......which sort of defies thier asset and wealth growth....does it not?

You know Gareth....... if you had of been born back when it all began...... no doubt there would be no need for new light today......in fact their would be no need for any light....

All we need to do is bathe in your illustrious light..... that is how you see your self, as a shining light....is it not?

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#13 May 6, 2009
JJJ wrote:
and in many cases, in fact in most cases they would gain on currency exhange rates anyway against the US dollar.
Priceless.

Since: May 09

Canandaigua, NY

#14 May 6, 2009
The pride in this group is sickening in mine eyes.
JJJ

Australia

#15 May 6, 2009
Gareth wrote:
<quoted text>
Priceless.
Once again your inability to deal with the truth is what is priceless and comical....

You are the one talking about the time value of money and how it applies to interest...

As if the WTBTS will 'lose' money on a loan of say one quarter or less of the value of land and building that will have capital growth in the years to come.... oh please..

Let me tell you a story Gareth.... let me just accept that you were not associated at the time the WTBTS told us to stop charging for mags....

Do you know why that was Gareth..... because governemts were waking up to the fact that they are not a not for profit organisation (another lie they told the UN to join as NGO member)....

They stop charging for literature becuase they were indeed making a huge profit on it. How do I know..... becuase once out witnessing I ran into a production manager of one of our big newspapers.... he asked me what I was I selling..and I proceeded to tell him how the mags were only 40 cents, made with volunteer labour etc.

He then looked at how many were printed and estimated that even with paid labour they would cost less than 15 cents to produce...... with free labour.....less than five...... a huge profit to be made when produced in the millions....

One day soon.... govts will go through them with a fine tooth comb....... and then we'll see just how spirit directed they are.
maryjanedoe

United States

#16 May 7, 2009
The part of the Hall being paid for then the ownership belongs to the WTS is what gets me.

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#17 May 7, 2009
JJJ wrote:
Once again your inability to deal with the truth is what is priceless and comical....
As is your grasp on basic economics.
JJJ wrote:
As if the WTBTS will 'lose' money on a loan of say one quarter or less of the value of land and building that will have capital growth in the years to come.... oh please..
They convert cash into assets. The ONLY way to realise those assets are to sell for cash. Now when are they supposed to do this? After Armageddon?

Oh please indeed.

In an expanding economy there is no real room for the WBTS to make a profit by realising their assets. The only reason one building is sold is to acquire another.

Now if the organisation is constantly expanding (which it is) then it is constantly having to convert cash into assets (which it does).

This makes for a constantly increasing VALUE as per the increase in value of the assets but such value can never be realised into PROFIT.

So the WBTS make no profit from the rising value of its assets. Therefore its entire capital growth comes from donations.
JJJ wrote:
Let me tell you a story Gareth.... let me just accept that you were not associated at the time the WTBTS told us to stop charging for mags....
Do you know why that was Gareth..... because governemts were waking up to the fact that they are not a not for profit organisation (another lie they told the UN to join as NGO member)....
They stop charging for literature becuase they were indeed making a huge profit on it. How do I know..... becuase once out witnessing I ran into a production manager of one of our big newspapers.... he asked me what I was I selling..and I proceeded to tell him how the mags were only 40 cents, made with volunteer labour etc.
He then looked at how many were printed and estimated that even with paid labour they would cost less than 15 cents to produce...... with free labour.....less than five...... a huge profit to be made when produced in the millions....
One day soon.... govts will go through them with a fine tooth comb....... and then we'll see just how spirit directed they are.
Once again, in an expanding economy profits are absorbed into expansion. Printing works do not buy themselves.

Also any profits made from book/magazine donations will be well absorbed in the capital to asset expansion program (building KHs). Where are the WBTS supposed to get the money to lend people in the first place?

Are you expecting them to "magic" the money out of thin air and lend that to people?

Please!!

The WBTS needs money to lend to people to buy property. They NEVER realise the capital profit on the property yet somehow are expected to keep lending cash on an ever expanding scale without any source of income?

Please explain to me how that it going to be done?

How would YOU do it for example?

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#18 May 7, 2009
maryjanedoe wrote:
The part of the Hall being paid for then the ownership belongs to the WTS is what gets me.
Why?

If ownership does not belong to the WTS afterwards then no one has donated anything. The WTS thus becomes a lending company rather then a religious organisation that expands through donations. If they did that then they would have to charge the same king of interest as a mortgage lending company.

When you donate money to the local church to fix their roof do you get to keep the roof?

What about giving money to a charity that builds schools in Africa? Would you demand to own the school afterwards?

The WTS are NOT a mortgage company.

If you want to buy property then no one is preventing you from going to a mortgage lending company and buying your own place of worship.

But then what good will that do you?

Can you live there? Can you make a profit on it?

Now if a congregation of people all go to a mortgage company to buy a building then who owns it at the end?

Does each person who makes a donation "buy" some shares in the property? What good do those shares do you? Maybe you would have a scheme whereby the equity of the property could be realised through some kind of share cash buyout scheme?

Really it is a model that makes no sense. Financially it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the WTS to expand without receiving DONATIONS.

But lending people money to buy their own properties requires capital injection.
jimi

San Antonio, TX

#19 May 7, 2009
Gareth wrote:
...
If you donate money for your church to build a meeting hall then why would you expect to own the meeting hall afterwards?...
I think it would be reasonable to expect the congregation to own their buildings and the property they sit own if, as the case with the Witnesses, they are bought and paid for with the congregations money. To bear all the financial responsibility for property owned by a multinational corporation does not seem reasonable...Only Stupid People Would Do That.

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#20 May 7, 2009
jimi wrote:
<quoted text>
I think it would be reasonable to expect the congregation to own their buildings and the property they sit own if, as the case with the Witnesses, they are bought and paid for with the congregations money. To bear all the financial responsibility for property owned by a multinational corporation does not seem reasonable...Only Stupid People Would Do That.
What financial responsibility to the congregation bear?

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