Jesus in NOT the mediator of the Grea...
red blood relative

United States

#22 Aug 3, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually its just different uses of the modern English word "mediator". The WT publications are simply talking about Jesus as a mediator for the New Covenant contract with God.
Jesus does a different kind of "mediating" between mankind and God as their High Priest.
Anti-JW propagandists like to equivocate between theses different uses of the word "mediator" to trick people into a false understanding of what Jehovah's Witnesses believe.
according to the scriptures, the world stands before the judgment thone of god during the 1000yrs, not before then..... until then they are "the dead" who don't respond to the call.
thats the trick the jw gov body has going....... they talked some of the called ones into thinking they are ignorant fools who belong in the second resurrection.

the great crowd in rev 7;9 are not second resurrection members.
they are the final bride of christ.
a lot of the world survives the great tribulation, while their leadership is destroyed, but they don't have white robes on.

the jw gov body swapped that all around, so they could have a servant class to rule over.

there is no division in the body of christ........until the 1000 yrs, the second resurrection persons have nothing to do with the christian congregation.
forgodsakes

Costa Mesa, CA

#23 Aug 3, 2012
It is wild THE WAY THE GOVERNING BODY SPIN DOCTRINE!

I remember in an WT article it had said they Bible was directed and mean onlly for them, and they were the only one that could interpet it.....ha.....yes, that's why they CONTINUE TO NEED NEW LIGHT BECAUSE THEY CAN'T INTERPET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE........
red blood relative

United States

#24 Aug 3, 2012
i suspect that right off the bat, russel's motive for the aticles and magazines was not to refine chrisitanity, but instead it was a business venture, combined with giving himself the glory.

same with rutherford.... the doctrinal changes were not to refine the christian truth, it was all about holding on to the tax free donations, and keeping the ball rolling.

jws believe all their new light is a progressive correction from god..... they can't see behind the curtain....... its never really been about refining the truth..... they make up new stuff when they are finally pushed into a corner and its to stupid to even defend anymore.

you'd be surprized how easy it is for a wicked bible expert to just make stuff up, and then link it to bible prophecy.
Lannymac

New Iberia, LA

#25 Aug 3, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually its just different uses of the modern English word "mediator". The WT publications are simply talking about Jesus as a mediator for the New Covenant contract with God.
Jesus does a different kind of "mediating" between mankind and God as their High Priest.
How cultish and ignorant.

You couldn't produce one single verse stating this WTS crapola, if your miserable life depended on it...and IT DOES.

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#26 Aug 3, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually its just different uses of the modern English word "mediator". The WT publications are simply talking about Jesus as a mediator for the New Covenant contract with God.
Jesus does a different kind of "mediating" between mankind and God as their High Priest.
Anti-JW propagandists like to equivocate between theses different uses of the word "mediator" to trick people into a false understanding of what Jehovah's Witnesses believe.
You're just making this up as you go along.

Where in the bible can we find that Jesus does 2 different kinds of mediation?

According to the WTS, if youre not one of the 144,000 then Jesus is NOT your mediator.

How is Jesus the mediator for the great crowed if they are not in the new covenant?

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#27 Aug 3, 2012
Lannymac wrote:
<quoted text>How cultish and ignorant.
You couldn't produce one single verse stating this WTS crapola, if your miserable life depended on it...and IT DOES.
It is very much in the scriptures. You need to read them.

The problem here is that modern English the word "mediator" encompases more than what the Bible uses the term translated as "mediator" for. For instance a priest approaches God in behalf of a people. Such a role is a mediating role according to the general use of the word.

Now Jesus is 'mediator' of the New Covenant. Only the anointed are in the New Covenant so Jesus is only mediating the New Covenant for the anointed.

That does not mean that you do not go through Jesus for reconciliation with Jehovah because you do.

Jesus still 'mediates' for the 'other sheep' by virtue of the fact that he is their PRIEST. That is simply a different kind of mediation. He is their PRIEST.

Although a priest IS a type of mediator between man and God the society (and indeed the Bible) do not use the word 'mediator' to describe Jesus' role as priest. They use the more accurate term PRIEST.

I think they like to keep the two mediating roles of Jesus clear and distinct by only using the word "mediator" to describe Jesus' role in mediating the New Covenant with the anointed and using the word "priest" to describe Jesus' role between greater mankind and Jehovah God.

Opposers love to play on this in order to make it sound like JWs do not teach that Jesus stands between them and God. But it is false. Jesus DOES stand between them and God as their high priest.

The easiest way to understand it I find is to look at the Mosaic Covenant that was replaced by the New Covenant.

In the Mosaic System Moses was the "mediator" and Aaron was the high "priest".

The "mediator" (Moses) negotiated the terms and conditions of the Law Covenant, conveying Jehovah's requirements and extracting a promise to meet them from the Israelites.

That is what a covenant 'mediator' does. Negotiates the terms.

Now the "priest" (Aaron) used to plead for the forgiveness of sins for Israel through the sacrifice of clean animals.

That is what a 'priest' does. Reconciles sinful people to God.

Now Moses did not remove anyone's sins through being the mediator he simply negotiated the Law Covenant.

But Jesus inherits BOTH roles for the New Covenant. He is BOTH 'mediator' AND 'high priest'.

So as 'mediator' he negotiates the terms of the New Covenant between the 144,000 anointed and Jehovah and as 'priest' he pleads forgiveness for peoples sins before Jehovah God seeking ultimate reconciliation.

So there is no need for a (covenant) mediator in order to gain salvation through Christ. You need Jesus as your priest (which is a different type of mediator). That's all.

You only need Jesus to 'mediate' the covenant if you are part of the New Covenant and one of the 144,000.

The fact that a 'priest' is also a kind of mediator is just a point of confusion that apostates and Christendomites exploit.

What Does the Bible Really Teach?
http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/bh_E...

The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived
http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/gt_E...

"Bearing Thorough Witness" About God's Kingdom
http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/bt_E...
Lannymac

New Iberia, LA

#28 Aug 3, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
It is very much in the scriptures. You need to read them.
The problem here is that modern English the word "mediator" encompases more than what the Bible uses the term translated as "mediator" for. For instance a priest approaches God in behalf of a people. Such a role is a mediating role according to the general use of the word.
Now Jesus is 'mediator' of the New Covenant. Only the anointed are in the New Covenant so Jesus is only mediating the New Covenant for the anointed.
That does not mean that you do not go through Jesus for reconciliation with Jehovah because you do.
Jesus still 'mediates' for the 'other sheep' by virtue of the fact that he is their PRIEST. That is simply a different kind of mediation. He is their PRIEST.
Although a priest IS a type of mediator between man and God the society (and indeed the Bible) do not use the word 'mediator' to describe Jesus' role as priest. They use the more accurate term PRIEST.
I think they like to keep the two mediating roles of Jesus clear and distinct by only using the word "mediator" to describe Jesus' role in mediating the New Covenant with the anointed and using the word "priest" to describe Jesus' role between greater mankind and Jehovah God.
Opposers love to play on this in order to make it sound like JWs do not teach that Jesus stands between them and God. But it is false. Jesus DOES stand between them and God as their high priest.
The easiest way to understand it I find is to look at the Mosaic Covenant that was replaced by the New Covenant.
In the Mosaic System Moses was the "mediator" and Aaron was the high "priest".
The "mediator" (Moses) negotiated the terms and conditions of the Law Covenant, conveying Jehovah's requirements and extracting a promise to meet them from the Israelites.
That is what a covenant 'mediator' does. Negotiates the terms.
Now the "priest" (Aaron) used to plead for the forgiveness of sins for Israel through the sacrifice of clean animals.
That is what a 'priest' does. Reconciles sinful people to God.
Now Moses did not remove anyone's sins through being the mediator he simply negotiated the Law Covenant.
But Jesus inherits BOTH roles for the New Covenant. He is BOTH 'mediator' AND 'high priest'.
So as 'mediator' he negotiates the terms of the New Covenant between the 144,000 anointed and Jehovah and as 'priest' he pleads forgiveness for peoples sins before Jehovah God seeking ultimate reconciliation.
So there is no need for a (covenant) mediator in order to gain salvation through Christ. You need Jesus as your priest (which is a different type of mediator). That's all.
You only need Jesus to 'mediate' the covenant if you are part of the New Covenant and one of the 144,000.
The fact that a 'priest' is also a kind of mediator is just a point of confusion that apostates and Christendomites exploit.
What Does the Bible Really Teach?
http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/bh_E...
The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived
http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/gt_E...
"Bearing Thorough Witness" About God's Kingdom
http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/bt_E...
Lol...it's in the scripture, but you don't post a single verse.

I'll, wait.

Btw...are you sure "negotiating" is the right term to use for Moses role in the Jews receiving the Law of the Covenant?

What was put in the Law because Moses negotiated it in?

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#29 Aug 3, 2012
Lannymac wrote:
<quoted text>Lol...it's in the scripture, but you don't post a single verse.
I'll, wait.Btw...are you sure "negotiating" is the right term to use for Moses role in the Jews receiving the Law of the Covenant?
What was put in the Law because Moses negotiated it in?
Understanding the New Covenant requires a lot of in-depth Bible study. You need to understand the Law Covenant before you can understand the New Covenant that replaced it. That is because the Law Covenant performs the same task that the Law Covenant was intended to perform and the whole Mosaic System was a template for the eventual Christian arrangement:

*** Heb 8:4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, seeing there are priests who offer the gifts according to the Law;

*** Heb 8:5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, even as Moses was warned by God when he was about to make the tabernacle, for he said, "See, you shall make everything according to the pattern that was shown to you on the mountain."

Moses negotiated the Law Covenant by receiving the terms and conditions from Jehovah God and taking those terms and conditions to the Israelite people in order to obtain their verbal agreement.

*** Ex 19:3 Moses went up to God, and Jehovah called to him out of the mountain, saying, "This is what you shall tell the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:

*** Ex 19:4 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to myself.

*** Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice, and keep my covenant, then you shall be my own possession from among all peoples; for all the earth is mine;

*** Ex 19:6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel."

*** Ex 19:7 Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which Jehovah commanded him.

*** Ex 19:8 All the people answered together, and said, "All that Jehovah has spoken we will do." Moses reported the words of the people to Jehovah.

So in his role as "mediator" Moses negotiated a contract between Israel and Jehovah God for Israel to produce a Kingdom of Priests.

Jesus fulfils the same role as "mediator" for the New Covenant that replaced the failed Law Covenant that Moses negotiated.

*** Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us, and washed us from our sins by his blood;

*** Rev 1:6 and he made us to be a Kingdom, priests to his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

So the New Covenant that Jesus mediates succeeds in producing the Kingdom of Priests that the Law Covenant failed to produce.

We can see from this that the role of "mediator" has nothing to do with "salvation". Salvation is based upon forgiveness of sins, which happens through the intervention of a Priest:

*** Num 15:25 The priest shall make atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and they shall be forgiven; for it was an error, and they have brought their offering, an offering made by fire to Jehovah, and their sin offering before Jehovah, for their error:

*** Num 15:26 and all the congregation of the children of Israel shall be forgiven, and the stranger who lives as a foreigner among them...

Now Jesus fulfils the role of High Priest in ADDITION to his role as mediator. And it is through Christ's role of High Priest that we gain salvation through forgiveness of sins.

*** Heb 9:11 But Christ having come as a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation,

*** Heb 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the Holy Place, having obtained eternal redemption.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#30 Aug 3, 2012
So to sum up:

Jesus MEDIATES the contract between Jehovah God and those in the New Covenant to produce a Kingdom of Priests to rule in heaven along side him.

Jesus pleads for the sins of mankind in general in his role as High Priest based upon the sacrifice of his own blood.

What Does the Bible Really Teach?
http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/bh_E...

The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived
http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/gt_E...

"Bearing Thorough Witness" About God's Kingdom
http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/bt_E...

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#31 Aug 3, 2012
Aneirin, where in scripture can we find that Jesus does TWO different kinds of mediation?

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#32 Aug 3, 2012
JesusMyKing wrote:
Aneirin, where in scripture can we find that Jesus does TWO different kinds of mediation?
I already provided those scriptures. The two types of mediation are "contract broker" and "pleader for forgiveness".

The scriptures only use the word "mediator" in connection with his role in brokering the New Covenant.

Christ's other role is HIGH PRIEST.

That role is also a FORM of "mediation" (go-between) as far as the Modern English word goes.

But the Bible uses the word "mediator" to mean "contract broker" and "priest" to mean "pleader for forgiveness" - two separate roles.

That these two roles are separate is demonstrated by the fact that they were held by separate people in the Mosaic System.

Moses was the mediator (broker) and Aaron was the high priest (pleader for forgiveness).

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#33 Aug 3, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
I already provided those scriptures. The two types of mediation are "contract broker" and "pleader for forgiveness".
The scriptures only use the word "mediator" in connection with his role in brokering the New Covenant.
Christ's other role is HIGH PRIEST.
That role is also a FORM of "mediation" (go-between) as far as the Modern English word goes.
But the Bible uses the word "mediator" to mean "contract broker" and "priest" to mean "pleader for forgiveness" - two separate roles.
That these two roles are separate is demonstrated by the fact that they were held by separate people in the Mosaic System.
Moses was the mediator (broker) and Aaron was the high priest (pleader for forgiveness).
I asked you for scripture not you own opinion.

Can you show me scripture that says Jesus is TWO diifferent kinds on mediator?
forgodsakes

Costa Mesa, CA

#34 Aug 3, 2012
Aneirin U need to get a clue......

ACCORDING TO THE WTS and this WT....Is Jesus the "mediator" only for anointed Christians?... So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians." Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31

NOTE: It states in the "STRICT" Biblical sense.......and mediator "ONLY for annointed Christians.....

More BS spin speak......
forgodsakes

Costa Mesa, CA

#35 Aug 3, 2012
HERE'S A CALL TO BETHEL ........you can see for yourself EXACTLY how GB and the WTS believe and teach who's Jesus is meditor for.

And since you're so lost about what your religion believes you should write a letter to Bethel yourself...

http://youtu.be/5qxFTuYUEVA

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#36 Aug 3, 2012
JesusMyKing wrote:
<quoted text>
I asked you for scripture not you own opinion.
Can you show me scripture that says Jesus is TWO diifferent kinds on mediator?
You need to learn how to read
forgodsakes

Costa Mesa, CA

#37 Aug 3, 2012
Aneirin and YOU need to be updated on your New Light....go on, write Bethel
little lamb

Australia

#38 Aug 4, 2012
Scripture states " There is only one mediator between God and men, jesus Christ"

And Jesus mediates a new covenant between God and men..

Its only in the new covenant, that the promise is made...Hebrwes 8 [12] For I shall be merciful to their unrighteous deeds , and I shall by no means call their sins to mind any more"

Its inclusion in the covenant...and thats what Jesus said when he took the wine and asked us to do it in remembrance of him..

Matthew 26 [28] For this means my "blood" of the covenant , which is to be poured out for many for forgiveness of sins"

Its important to relize Jesus said its the blood of the COVENANT that is to be poured out for forgiveness of sins

Aneirin is trying to leave out Jesus words " blood of the covenant"

And rephrase it to say " my blood is poured out for some for a covenant and others for forgiveness..Its not what Jesus said..

His BLOOD OF THE COVENANT..is for forgiveness..

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#39 Aug 4, 2012
little lamb wrote:
Its only in the new covenant, that the promise is made...Hebrwes 8 [12] For I shall be merciful to their unrighteous deeds , and I shall by no means call their sins to mind any more"
Its inclusion in the covenant...and thats what Jesus said when he took the wine and asked us to do it in remembrance of him..
Matthew 26 [28] For this means my "blood" of the covenant , which is to be poured out for many for forgiveness of sins"
Its important to relize Jesus said its the blood of the COVENANT that is to be poured out for forgiveness of sins
Aneirin is trying to leave out Jesus words " blood of the covenant"
And rephrase it to say " my blood is poured out for some for a covenant and others for forgiveness..Its not what Jesus said..
His BLOOD OF THE COVENANT..is for forgiveness..
Little Lamb is providing further proof that Jesus Christ as "mediator" is fulfilling the same role as Moses when he brokered the Law Covenant.

Where does the term "blood of the covenant" come from?

*** Exod 24:7 He took the BLOOD OF THE COVENANT and read it in the hearing of the people, and they said, "All that Jehovah has spoken will we do, and be obedient."
*** Exod 24:8 Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, "Look, this is the blood of the covenant,* which Jehovah has made with you concerning all these words."

That is right. it is the blood that MOSES used to seal the 'deal' or the Law Covenant.

However, as we have already seen, Jesus takes on BOTH roles, that of covenant broker and that of High Priest. The SAME BLOOD (the blood shed by Christ) is used to broker the deal (blood of the covenant) that is ALSO used in the sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins by the High Priest.

So Jesus has TWO roles.

1) Covenant mediator ratified by his shed blood (similar to Moses using the blood of a bull to ratify the Law Covenant).

2) High Priest pleading for forgiveness by virtue of his own shed blood (similar to Aaron the High Priest using animal blood to forgive sins).

But the MOST IMPORTANT thing about Jesus as High Priest is that he is NOT a priest in the line of Aaron, but in the order of Melchizedek. Melchizedek has no lineage to the people of Israel. This means that Jesus as High Priest can absolve sins of both Israel AND those outside of Israel - the people of the nations.

So even though Jesus only mediates the covenant for Israel, he is High Priest to ALL mankind.
remnant143999

Albuquerque, NM

#40 Aug 4, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
Little Lamb is providing further proof that Jesus Christ as "mediator" is fulfilling the same role as Moses when he brokered the Law Covenant.
Where does the term "blood of the covenant" come from?
*** Exod 24:7 He took the BLOOD OF THE COVENANT and read it in the hearing of the people, and they said, "All that Jehovah has spoken will we do, and be obedient."
*** Exod 24:8 Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, "Look, this is the blood of the covenant,* which Jehovah has made with you concerning all these words."
That is right. it is the blood that MOSES used to seal the 'deal' or the Law Covenant.
However, as we have already seen, Jesus takes on BOTH roles, that of covenant broker and that of High Priest. The SAME BLOOD (the blood shed by Christ) is used to broker the deal (blood of the covenant) that is ALSO used in the sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins by the High Priest.
So Jesus has TWO roles.
1) Covenant mediator ratified by his shed blood (similar to Moses using the blood of a bull to ratify the Law Covenant).
2) High Priest pleading for forgiveness by virtue of his own shed blood (similar to Aaron the High Priest using animal blood to forgive sins).
But the MOST IMPORTANT thing about Jesus as High Priest is that he is NOT a priest in the line of Aaron, but in the order of Melchizedek. Melchizedek has no lineage to the people of Israel. This means that Jesus as High Priest can absolve sins of both Israel AND those outside of Israel - the people of the nations.
So even though Jesus only mediates the covenant for Israel, he is High Priest to ALL mankind.
Still not baptised?

“the Lion of Judah”

Since: Jul 08

US Bible Belt

#41 Aug 4, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
Little Lamb is providing further proof that Jesus Christ as "mediator" is fulfilling the same role as Moses when he brokered the Law Covenant.
Where does the term "blood of the covenant" come from?
*** Exod 24:7 He took the BLOOD OF THE COVENANT and read it in the hearing of the people, and they said, "All that Jehovah has spoken will we do, and be obedient."
*** Exod 24:8 Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, "Look, this is the blood of the covenant,* which Jehovah has made with you concerning all these words."
That is right. it is the blood that MOSES used to seal the 'deal' or the Law Covenant.
However, as we have already seen, Jesus takes on BOTH roles, that of covenant broker and that of High Priest. The SAME BLOOD (the blood shed by Christ) is used to broker the deal (blood of the covenant) that is ALSO used in the sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins by the High Priest.
So Jesus has TWO roles.
1) Covenant mediator ratified by his shed blood (similar to Moses using the blood of a bull to ratify the Law Covenant).
2) High Priest pleading for forgiveness by virtue of his own shed blood (similar to Aaron the High Priest using animal blood to forgive sins).
But the MOST IMPORTANT thing about Jesus as High Priest is that he is NOT a priest in the line of Aaron, but in the order of Melchizedek. Melchizedek has no lineage to the people of Israel. This means that Jesus as High Priest can absolve sins of both Israel AND those outside of Israel - the people of the nations.
So even though Jesus only mediates the covenant for Israel, he is High Priest to ALL mankind.
I am the Christ you just described and I can forgive all sins, debts and tresspasses just like the Bible promises. All you have to do is listen to me and follow directions and you will live in paradise on earth.

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