Once again, the Empty Tomb!

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#643 Nov 18, 2012
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
No, Richard he was not a spirit. He says so himself. "Look at MY hands and feet. It is I MYSELF. Touch ME and SEE." You can't do that to a spirit. That what he said. Go back and read it.
Since his body did not decay, it would have still been in the tomb 3 days later. Yet Jesus was seen and touched outside the tomb. If it were not his own original body that he showed, what became of it? What is the point of having a non decaying body intended to be discarded?
Claude,

The physical body that Jesus showed as himself, was a physical body that wasn't a spirit, and it did have flesh and bones. But this was a simulated body of flesh, that Jesus materialised to become visible for his disciples.

Jesus could never reclaim his real body of flesh, as he had offered his life as a human, his blood and his fleshly body as the sacrifice to redeem sinful mankind.

To reclaim his corpse again, would invalidate his purchase price that he paid for mankind.

Hebrews 9:16-17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

Jesus had to give up his life as a human forever to keep this covenant in force. If he were to do as you say, to take up life again in his human body, then the covenant is no longer in force.

Hebrews 5:7, speaks of the days of Jesus' flesh in the past tense, showing that as he was dying and crying out with tears, this marked the end of Jesus being in the flesh.

In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.

1 Peter 3:18, shows that he was made alive again after three days, but now in the spirit.

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;"
Susie B

Richland, WA

#644 Nov 18, 2012
miseracord wrote:
<quoted text>I'm sorry if there was any misunderstanding. I was asking Dee if she thinks God has a body because of previous conversations. God has a body, he is a spirit with a body, indescribable in its glory. Sometimes I go along with someone's reasoning to see where it will lead, perhaps that is why you think I said God does not have a body. God DOES have a body, the scriptures say so in various ways by describing his heavenly abode, his presence and appearance, as well as discussing his hands, face, and so forth. His body is not able to be seen by humans. John 1:18. I agree with the scriptures you quoted, God has a body. Question: We know that Jesus certainly had a body. He was seen. John 1:18 says that no one has seen God at any time. Yet Jesus prayed to the Father in heaven. Do we agree that the Father in heaven was an actual person with a body when Jesus prayed to him?
Hi Miseracord, sorry I didn't mean to be snippy sounding, it was late and I was trying to hurry and was a bit rude sounding and I apologize.
Of course God was an actual person with a body and still is, but His body is a heavenly body...just as the scriptures say.
Jesus and Jehovah have GLORIFIED bodies, different from a fleshly body, and I believe greater than just a spiritual body. But that is my own personal belief based on what the scriptures say.
What do you think about that?
Claude Kenneson

Crawfordville, FL

#645 Nov 18, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Claude,
The physical body that Jesus showed as himself, was a physical body that wasn't a spirit, and it did have flesh and bones. But this was a simulated body of flesh, that Jesus materialised to become visible for his disciples.
Jesus could never reclaim his real body of flesh, as he had offered his life as a human, his blood and his fleshly body as the sacrifice to redeem sinful mankind.
To reclaim his corpse again, would invalidate his purchase price that he paid for mankind.
Hebrews 9:16-17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
Jesus had to give up his life as a human forever to keep this covenant in force. If he were to do as you say, to take up life again in his human body, then the covenant is no longer in force.
Hebrews 5:7, speaks of the days of Jesus' flesh in the past tense, showing that as he was dying and crying out with tears, this marked the end of Jesus being in the flesh.
In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.
1 Peter 3:18, shows that he was made alive again after three days, but now in the spirit.
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;"
A simulated body is only an imitation. Jesus didn't have to use a pretended body in order to convince Thomas. His was the real thing. No where does Scripture say that his original body was dissolved, disintegrated or removed by some other reason. As a matter of fact, the angel at the EMPTY tomb disproves that Watchtower fairytale. "The angel said to the women,'Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. HE is not here; HE has RISEN, just as HE said. COME AND SEE THE PLACE WHERE HE LAY. Then go quickly and tell his disciples:'HE has risen from the dead and IS GOING AHEAD of you into Galilee. THERE you will SEE HIM.' Now I have told you." See Matt. 28:5-7 The reason the body was not in the tomb was because it was RAISED.

The Bible also disagrees with your assertion that Jesus could not reclaim his human body. John 2:19-21 states: "Jesus answered them,'Destroy this temple, and I WILL RAISE IT again in three days.' The Jews replied, "it has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?' But the temple he had spoken of was HIS BODY. After he was RAISED from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken."

John 10:17 also states: "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." It was physical life that he gave up and physical life that he took back.
Claude Kenneson

Crawfordville, FL

#646 Nov 18, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Hebrews 9:16-17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
Jesus had to give up his life as a human forever to keep this covenant in force. If he were to do as you say, to take up life again in his human body, then the covenant is no longer in force.
Christ did die, but this passage does not say that he remained dead forever. As a matter of fact, he is very much alive, albeit not living here on earth.
Claude Kenneson

Crawfordville, FL

#647 Nov 18, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
rHebrews 5:7, speaks of the days of Jesus' flesh in the past tense, showing that as he was dying and crying out with tears, this marked the end of Jesus being in the flesh.
In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.
1 Peter 3:18, shows that he was made alive again after three days, but now in the spirit.
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;"
Heb. 5:7 is talking about Christ's agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, while he was still on earth. See Matt. 27:46 and 26:36-46. His prayer was answered by the Father, who saved him from death--through resurrection of his body.

1 Pet. 3:18 Jesus was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit. This is referring to the resurrection.

Heb. 5:7 shows the end of Jesus' life on earth

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#648 Nov 19, 2012
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
A simulated body is only an imitation. Jesus didn't have to use a pretended body in order to convince Thomas. His was the real thing. No where does Scripture say that his original body was dissolved, disintegrated or removed by some other reason. As a matter of fact, the angel at the EMPTY tomb disproves that Watchtower fairytale. "The angel said to the women,'Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. HE is not here; HE has RISEN, just as HE said. COME AND SEE THE PLACE WHERE HE LAY. Then go quickly and tell his disciples:'HE has risen from the dead and IS GOING AHEAD of you into Galilee. THERE you will SEE HIM.' Now I have told you." See Matt. 28:5-7 The reason the body was not in the tomb was because it was RAISED.
The Bible also disagrees with your assertion that Jesus could not reclaim his human body. John 2:19-21 states: "Jesus answered them,'Destroy this temple, and I WILL RAISE IT again in three days.' The Jews replied, "it has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?' But the temple he had spoken of was HIS BODY. After he was RAISED from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken."
John 10:17 also states: "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." It was physical life that he gave up and physical life that he took back.
Claude,
This is all very easy to understand. Jesus gave us his life as a perfect human, and that included his flesh and blood, as a sacrifice to repurchase mankind from sin and death.

If he takes back his body of flesh that was sacrificed to repurchase mankind, the covenant that Jesus made, mentioned at Hebrews 9:16-17, becomes invalid.

What purpose can you think of, that would necessitate for Jesus to recant and take away the sacrifice that he made for us?

What purpose would a glorious powerful immortal spirit person like Jesus, need to be tied down and hampered with a physical body?

1 Peter 3:18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

(You wrote)>”It was physical life that he gave up and physical life that he took back.”

You can believe that lie all that you want. Jesus is no longer alive in the flesh, he was made alive in the spirit. It can’t get any clearer than that. He lays down his life as a human, and takes it back up as he had formerly, as the powerful Son of God in the heavens.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#649 Nov 19, 2012
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
Heb. 5:7 is talking about Christ's agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, while he was still on earth. See Matt. 27:46 and 26:36-46. His prayer was answered by the Father, who saved him from death--through resurrection of his body.
1 Pet. 3:18 Jesus was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit. This is referring to the resurrection.
Heb. 5:7 shows the end of Jesus' life on earth
Claude,

You are correct, Heb 5:7 was speaking of the night in the garden.

But the verse clearly speaks of the days of Jesus being in the flesh in the past tense.

Hebrews 5:7 (NASB)

7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.

You are misquoting 1 Peter 3:18 (You wrote)>"Jesus was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit."

Here is what it says;

1 Peter 3:18 (NASB)

18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Peter was showing a direct contrast between "death in the flesh", and "alive in the spirit".

The scholars of the NASB recognize this as not referring to the Holy Spirit, rendering this as simply "spirit".

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#650 Nov 19, 2012
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
Christ did die, but this passage does not say that he remained dead forever. As a matter of fact, he is very much alive, albeit not living here on earth.
Jesus died as a human forever. He is alive forevermore as he was formerly.

John 17:5 (NASB)

5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Claude Kenneson

Tallahassee, FL

#651 Nov 19, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Claude,
You are correct, Heb 5:7 was speaking of the night in the garden.
But the verse clearly speaks of the days of Jesus being in the flesh in the past tense.
Hebrews 5:7 (NASB)
7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.
You are misquoting 1 Peter 3:18 (You wrote)>"Jesus was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit."
Here is what it says;
1 Peter 3:18 (NASB)
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
Peter was showing a direct contrast between "death in the flesh", and "alive in the spirit".
The scholars of the NASB recognize this as not referring to the Holy Spirit, rendering this as simply "spirit".
Well, I certainly did not make it up. I am quoting from the New International Version Study Bible. Look it up if you doubt me. It reads "He was put to death in the body by made alive by the Spirit." The footnote reads: made alive by the Spirit. Referring to the resurrection. Elsewhere the resurrectiion is attributed to the Father (Ac.2:32; Gal. 1:1; Eph. and to the Son (Jn. 10:17-18). If the NIV text note is correct, the reference would be to Christ's own spirit, through which also "he preached to the spirits in prison" (vs. 19).

Heb. 5:7 in the NIV reads: "During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission."

Neither of these passages say that Jesus dispensed of his body to sport a simulated body.
Claude Kenneson

Tallahassee, FL

#652 Nov 19, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus died as a human forever. He is alive forevermore as he was formerly.
John 17:5 (NASB)
5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Jesus added to his person (whom he is) humanity to come down from heaven to earth. As a human, for a time, he laid aside the POSITION of glory that he had in heaven. He did not extinguish himself. He died as a human true, but not forever. His bodily resurrection and exaltation at the right hand of the father indicate otherwise. His body was adapted for heaven but not dissolved.
Claude Kenneson

Tallahassee, FL

#653 Nov 19, 2012
1 Cor. 15:53-54 does not say that the mortal body is taken away at death, but rather that in the resurrection it puts on immortality--the perishable is clothed with the imperishable. It's obvious to me that there is continuity with the physical body, but also change. God will take a perishable, dishonorable, weak body and in the resurrection make it an imperishable, glorious, powerful body, fit to live with Him. See Phil. 3:20-21 and Rom. 8:29-30

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#654 Nov 19, 2012
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, I certainly did not make it up. I am quoting from the New International Version Study Bible. Look it up if you doubt me. It reads "He was put to death in the body by made alive by the Spirit." The footnote reads: made alive by the Spirit. Referring to the resurrection. Elsewhere the resurrectiion is attributed to the Father (Ac.2:32; Gal. 1:1; Eph. and to the Son (Jn. 10:17-18). If the NIV text note is correct, the reference would be to Christ's own spirit, through which also "he preached to the spirits in prison" (vs. 19).
Heb. 5:7 in the NIV reads: "During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission."
Neither of these passages say that Jesus dispensed of his body to sport a simulated body.
Hi Claude,

I am amazed that the NIV would render this verse in opposition to the vast majority of scholars the world over.

I checked all of the translations at BibleGateway, and a few others, and the majority of them didn't give such a rendering.

Here are just a few;

1 Peter 3:18
Good News Translation (GNT)

18 For Christ died for sins once and for all, a good man on behalf of sinners, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually,

1 Peter 3:18
New English Translation (NET)

18 Because Christ also suffered once for sins,
the just for the unjust,
to bring you to God,
by being put to death in the flesh
but by being made alive in the spirit.

The ASV, AMP, CEV, Douay, ESV, GWT, Hollman, Phillips, Knox, Lexham, Mounce, NCV, NLV, WE, Young's, NRSV, NAB, and the JB are all similar to the above renderings.

It seems that Protestant theologians are split on this rendering, but the majority follow the above renderings.

I don't know how the NIV can take the Greek word for "flesh" and change it to read "life", at Heb 5:7 There is a lot of interpretation going on instead of translation, in the NIV.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#655 Nov 19, 2012
Claude Kenneson wrote:
1 Cor. 15:53-54 does not say that the mortal body is taken away at death, but rather that in the resurrection it puts on immortality--the perishable is clothed with the imperishable. It's obvious to me that there is continuity with the physical body, but also change. God will take a perishable, dishonorable, weak body and in the resurrection make it an imperishable, glorious, powerful body, fit to live with Him. See Phil. 3:20-21 and Rom. 8:29-30
Hi Claude,

The NIV might give that impression, but after seeing their rendering of 1 Peter 3:18 and Heb 5:7, I see that they give their interpretation rather than translate what the original Greek text says.

“Close enough”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#656 Nov 19, 2012
Susie B wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Miseracord, sorry I didn't mean to be snippy sounding, it was late and I was trying to hurry and was a bit rude sounding and I apologize.
Of course God was an actual person with a body and still is, but His body is a heavenly body...just as the scriptures say.
Jesus and Jehovah have GLORIFIED bodies, different from a fleshly body, and I believe greater than just a spiritual body. But that is my own personal belief based on what the scriptures say.
What do you think about that?
What I think about it.... I have to study about what is a glorified body. The internet is not the greatest place for understanding the tone of a person's post, since we cannot see facial expressions or hear the voice.:-)

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#657 Nov 19, 2012
Claude Kenneson wrote:
1 Cor. 15:53-54 does not say that the mortal body is taken away at death, but rather that in the resurrection it puts on immortality--the perishable is clothed with the imperishable. It's obvious to me that there is continuity with the physical body, but also change. God will take a perishable, dishonorable, weak body and in the resurrection make it an imperishable, glorious, powerful body, fit to live with Him. See Phil. 3:20-21 and Rom. 8:29-30
Hi Claude,

After doing a little research on 1 Cor 15:53-54, I come to find that the NIV is doing some interpretation along with translating this verse.

Here are a few other renderings;

1 Corinthians 15:53-54
Good News Translation (GNT)

53 For what is mortal must be changed into what is immortal; what will die must be changed into what cannot die. 54 So when this takes place, and the mortal has been changed into the immortal, then the scripture will come true:“Death is destroyed; victory is complete!”

1 Corinthians 15:53-54
New English Translation (NET)

53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen,“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

The NIV uses the word "clothe", to give the thought of adding to what is already there.

The GNT uses the word "changed", to give the thought of removing and replacing what is there.

The NET uses the term "must put on", to give the thought of something in between the two others.

What we are, in our living bodies, is a living soul. When Jesus resurrects us, he brings life back to us as a person. If we are resurrected to the spirit realm, we are changed into another life form, like Jesus and his Father. They are spirit in form.

If Jesus resurrects us back to life as a human, we are physical or human in form.

The only part of those that go into the spirit realm as a spirit form, is their life, their rememberance, their personality, themselves. I see no portion of their bodies entering the spirit realm, as the Bible states, flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of the heavens.

Since: Jan 12

United States

#658 Nov 20, 2012
after the parts of three days, jesus came back to life and got up and took off all the rags that were full of spices..... then he and the angels pushed away the stone and he went outside

then a bird from heaven cried out......... PRAISE GOD, JESUS IS RISEN

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#659 Nov 20, 2012
red blood relative wrote:
after the parts of three days, jesus came back to life and got up and took off all the rags that were full of spices..... then he and the angels pushed away the stone and he went outside
then a bird from heaven cried out......... PRAISE GOD, JESUS IS RISEN
I prefer the account in the Scriptures;

Matthew 28:2, 6
Good News Translation (GNT)

2 Suddenly there was a violent earthquake; an angel of the Lord came down from heaven, rolled the stone away, and sat on it.

6 He is not here; he has been raised, just as he said. Come here and see the place where he was lying.

Acts 3:15
Good News Translation (GNT)

15 You killed the one who leads to life, but God raised him from death—and we are witnesses to this.
dee lightful

Piedmont, SC

#660 Nov 20, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
I prefer the account in the Scriptures;
Matthew 28:2, 6
Good News Translation (GNT)
2 Suddenly there was a violent earthquake; an angel of the Lord came down from heaven, rolled the stone away, and sat on it.
6 He is not here; he has been raised, just as he said. Come here and see the place where he was lying.
Acts 3:15
Good News Translation (GNT)
15 You killed the one who leads to life, but God raised him from death—and we are witnesses to this.
Where does it say his body dissolved into gases in scriptures.
It seems you prefer to believe what men have added to scriptures rather then what scriptures actually say.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#661 Nov 20, 2012
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text> Where does it say his body dissolved into gases in scriptures.
It seems you prefer to believe what men have added to scriptures rather then what scriptures actually say.
dee,

I have never said such a thing.

The Scriptures don't say how the body of Jesus was dealt with. But we do know that when he was raised up by God, he was raised in the spirit.

1 Peter 3:18
New English Translation (NET)

18 Because Christ also suffered once for sins,
the just for the unjust,
to bring you to God,
by being put to death in the flesh
but by being made alive in the spirit.

Good News Translation (GNT)

18 For Christ died for sins once and for all, a good man on behalf of sinners, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually,
dee lightful

Piedmont, SC

#662 Nov 20, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
dee,
I have never said such a thing.
The Scriptures don't say how the body of Jesus was dealt with. But we do know that when he was raised up by God, he was raised in the spirit.
1 Peter 3:18
New English Translation (NET)
18 Because Christ also suffered once for sins,
the just for the unjust,
to bring you to God,
by being put to death in the flesh
but by being made alive in the spirit.
Good News Translation (GNT)
18 For Christ died for sins once and for all, a good man on behalf of sinners, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually,
The WT /JW'S say since the tomb was empty his body was dissolved into gases and since you are a JW it stands to reason that you would believe the same thing.
.
Then you believe Jesus is a liar for he said he was not a spirit, he had a body of flesh and bones. It's no wonder JW's are not Christian when they believe their savior is a liar but then again jesus is not really the savior of the JW's for the WT says their org is necessary for salvation, not jesus alone.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Jehovah's Witness Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
"RESURRECTION"- meaningless in Churchianity! 1 min dlmacoop 384
YES- People WILL get OUT of HELL! (Nov '15) 14 min PrufSammy 4,620
Who goes to heaven? 16 min Seentheotherside 34
Equal to God! 22 min Seentheotherside 112
Let's try this again, 144,000 ONLY? No jw has b... 37 min ihveit 2,892
News Leah Remini's A&E Series May Take on Jehovah's ... 43 min Goobe 91
Reinstatement and the prodigal son. 57 min dlmacoop 8
More from around the web