Are there any legitimate reasons

Since: Oct 10

Homebush, Australia

#43 Nov 23, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
You are arguing with Apostle Paul.
Jesus only brings salvation to the earth because he acts on behalf of Jehovah. The Christian congregation only bring salvation to the earth because they act on behalf of Christ.
It is Christ's sacrifice that saves people. But ONLY if they know about it.
It is the PREACHING and TEACHING work of the Christian congregation that leads people to become aware of the salvation on offer and to learn to benefit from it.
it is the preaching by means of the holy spirit that opens the heart, no man or organization can give anyone salvation, that is the point YOU said they do.

No one said that the apostles did not go out and preach to give the message of salvation, but the organization cannot save anyone, they have to put faith in the message about the Christ.

YOU said that the organization brings salvation, in other words men, you did not mention the message.

and you did not provide a direct quote to what you said from the WT.

don't try and wiggle out of what you said.

Since: Oct 10

Homebush, Australia

#44 Nov 23, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
That's because you are too busy being a traitor, thinking up nasty thoughts against your brothers and sisters to actually learn anything spiritual.
*** w07 1/15 p. 9 par. 8 Highlights From the Book of Isaiah—II ***
Isa 49:6—How is the Messiah “a light of the nations,” even though his earthly ministry was limited to the sons of Israel? This is so because of what happened after Jesus’ death. The Bible applies Isaiah 49:6 to his disciples.(Acts 13:46, 47) Today, anointed Christians, aided by a great crowd of worshippers, serve as “a light of the nations,” enlightening peoples “to the extremity of the earth.”—Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20.
this is what you said.

Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
The Bible says that God's organization (the Christian congregation) will bring salvation to the ends of the earth:
*** Acts 13:47 For so has the LORD commanded us, saying,'I have set you as a light for the Gentiles, that you should bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.'"
That's what Jehovah's Witnesses teach.

they bring the message of salvation, it is up to Gods holy spirit to open the hearts of those that recieve this message, no organization can open up the hearts of anyone, no man only God.

they are just tools being used nothing more and mostly the WT brings false prophcies mixed in with the message of salvation through Christ, then they expect all to believe every wrong teaching or they are expelled.

It is YOu that is wicked in your reasoning for trying to make out that the organization and its GB especially are more important the Jesus Christ.

They don't realize that they have become just like the world, followers of men. Nowhere in the Scriptures has Jehovah required his people to put their full confidence in any man.(Ps. 146:3,4; Jer. 17:5; Ro. 3:4)

The GB likes to compare themselves to Moses, and that Jehovah required the people to listen to him and obey him; and most of the brothers in the congregations accept that. But Moses did not picture any governing body. He pictured Jesus, the greater Moses.(Heb. 1:1,2; 3:2-6) In wanting to compare themselves to Moses they have become just like Korah, Dathan and Abiram, who also persuaded others to follow them. But their end will be the same as those earlier rebels.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#45 Nov 23, 2012
array wrote:
<quoted text>this is what you said.
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
The Bible says that God's organization (the Christian congregation) will bring salvation to the ends of the earth:
*** Acts 13:47 For so has the LORD commanded us, saying,'I have set you as a light for the Gentiles, that you should bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.'"
That's what Jehovah's Witnesses teach.
they bring the message of salvation, it is up to Gods holy spirit to open the hearts of those that recieve this message, no organization can open up the hearts of anyone, no man only God.
they are just tools being used nothing more and mostly the WT brings false prophcies mixed in with the message of salvation through Christ, then they expect all to believe every wrong teaching or they are expelled.
It is YOu that is wicked in your reasoning for trying to make out that the organization and its GB especially are more important the Jesus Christ.
They don't realize that they have become just like the world, followers of men. Nowhere in the Scriptures has Jehovah required his people to put their full confidence in any man.(Ps. 146:3,4; Jer. 17:5; Ro. 3:4)
The GB likes to compare themselves to Moses, and that Jehovah required the people to listen to him and obey him; and most of the brothers in the congregations accept that. But Moses did not picture any governing body. He pictured Jesus, the greater Moses.(Heb. 1:1,2; 3:2-6) In wanting to compare themselves to Moses they have become just like Korah, Dathan and Abiram, who also persuaded others to follow them. But their end will be the same as those earlier rebels.
You are insane. I used exactly the same words the Bible used:

*** Acts 13:47 For so has the LORD commanded us, saying,'I have set you as a light for the Gentiles, that you should bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.'"

I said that "bring salvation"... and yet you argue with it.

Your argument is with the bible.

Perhaps you should concentrate less on stabbing fellow Christians in the back and more on spiritual things.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#46 Nov 23, 2012
array wrote:
<quoted text>it is the preaching by means of the holy spirit that opens the heart, no man or organization can give anyone salvation, that is the point YOU said they do.
No one said that the apostles did not go out and preach to give the message of salvation, but the organization cannot save anyone, they have to put faith in the message about the Christ.
YOU said that the organization brings salvation, in other words men, you did not mention the message.
and you did not provide a direct quote to what you said from the WT.
don't try and wiggle out of what you said.
No one is claiming that Christians have the magical ability to make people "saved".

Yet this is what Array is suggesting.

These people always lie about the claims of Jehovah's Witnesses.

People have to make their OWN decision after they receive the good news of the Kingdom. No person, group, organization can force people to accept Christ's sacrifice.

Since: Oct 10

Homebush, Australia

#47 Nov 23, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
You are insane. I used exactly the same words the Bible used:
*** Acts 13:47 For so has the LORD commanded us, saying,'I have set you as a light for the Gentiles, that you should bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.'"
I said that "bring salvation"... and yet you argue with it.
Your argument is with the bible.
Perhaps you should concentrate less on stabbing fellow Christians in the back and more on spiritual things.
I know you said bring salvation, but its the message not them, I think your mistake is that you worded it wrong, and I agree with the scriptures that you quoted but not in the context of what you said, and maybe I did over react if that was not your intent, then I apologise.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#48 Nov 23, 2012
array wrote:
<quoted text>and many JW complain about having to renovate KH when basically there is no need, new carpet not needed and decorated with big vases, huge paintings in the foyer, basically all that is needed is maybe paint now and again, and JW do not have the money in their KH account so the borrow the money from the WT.
This has been going on for a few years now, and last year it was the GB wishes that all money left over after bills have been paid (including literature) from the KH account is to go the WTS.
money money money!!
.
. Well.. they need to.. decide on an amount that they need for emergencies.. Or repairs and just don't send it to the WTS.. The demand that they do.. Shows plainly that it is not a volunteer donation..

Since: Oct 10

Homebush, Australia

#49 Nov 23, 2012
Maravilla wrote:
<quoted text>
.
. Well.. they need to.. decide on an amount that they need for emergencies.. Or repairs and just don't send it to the WTS.. The demand that they do.. Shows plainly that it is not a volunteer donation..
actually when this new idea of the GB to take rest of the money left over, there is always a letter read and a vote from the congregation, all in favor raise hands,(of course everybody does, or else people talk and wonder) so its passed.

people are not donating like they used to that is why and the GB rely on the western b/s to keep the cash flow going. When they have had to pay out so many millions in child sexual abuse cases I guess like all businesses they want it back somehow.

Since: Oct 10

Homebush, Australia

#50 Nov 23, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
No one is claiming that Christians have the magical ability to make people "saved".
Yet this is what Array is suggesting.
These people always lie about the claims of Jehovah's Witnesses.
People have to make their OWN decision after they receive the good news of the Kingdom. No person, group, organization can force people to accept Christ's sacrifice.
just one point about how you implied that the apostles and Christians back in the 1st century were somehow an organization is not true, they were a group of Christians with the help of the holy spirit that went forth to spread the good news about Christ.

Being organized does not mean they belonged to an organization, they belonged to Christ alone, and the holy spirit is what enabled them to preach the word in face of many opposition, nothing more no mediator except for Christ, no headquarters, no GB.

There was only one mention of Jeruselem which the problem was initially with the circumstion issue.

In the first century the apostles and older men did not exercise control over congregations outside their area. Once, when a problem arose concerning the circumcision issue, it was dealt with by the mature elders and apostles in Jerusalem where the problem arose and the decision was relayed to all affected congregations.(Acts 15:1,2)

When Jesus wrote the seven letters to the seven congregations in the book of Revelation, if there was a governing body at that time, why did he bypass them and deal directly with each elder (star, angel) in his congregation (lampstand)?(Revelation 1:20-3:22) If a governing body had been put in place by holy spirit should not that body of governors have been called to account by the Master as to the situation in the various congregations, since, as we understand it today, they would be the ones having authority over every aspect of the congregations, including the appointment of elders? Would they be given authority over God's household and yet not be acknowledged and held accountable?

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#51 Nov 23, 2012
array wrote:
<quoted text>just one point about how you implied that the apostles and Christians back in the 1st century were somehow an organization is not true, they were a group of Christians with the help of the holy spirit that went forth to spread the good news about Christ.
Being organized does not mean they belonged to an organization,
Being organized MAKES them an organization.

You are confusing the word "organization" with the word "business".

Anything that is organized is an organization.

The Bible Christians were very much an organization. They were gathered into congregations with appointed elders and were kept in faith by visits and letters from travelling overseers and looked towards the Apostles and elders in Jerusalem as authoritative guides.

VERY MUCH an organization.

Since: Oct 10

Homebush, Australia

#52 Nov 23, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
Being organized MAKES them an organization.
You are confusing the word "organization" with the word "business".
Anything that is organized is an organization.
The Bible Christians were very much an organization. They were gathered into congregations with appointed elders and were kept in faith by visits and letters from travelling overseers and looked towards the Apostles and elders in Jerusalem as authoritative guides.
VERY MUCH an organization.
not like we have today at all, with a central ruling body. there was no ruling elite class back in the 1st century a GB.
Nabija

United States

#53 Nov 23, 2012
array wrote:
<quoted text>not like we have today at all, with a central ruling body. there was no ruling elite class back in the 1st century a GB.
You must of cheated when they asked you your baptismal questions.

Since: Oct 10

Homebush, Australia

#54 Nov 23, 2012
Nabija wrote:
<quoted text> You must of cheated when they asked you your baptismal questions.
I believed all that back then, so I didn't cheat you nut! and I was baptised years before they changed the baptismal questions to being baptised into the organization, who about YOU?

are you imitating the faith of your elders being in subjection to them while coming here?

you hypocrite you, are you living up to your baptism questions.

wt 2002

15 Christians are urged:“Remember those who are taking the lead among you,. . . and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out imitate their faith.”

Since: Oct 10

Homebush, Australia

#55 Nov 23, 2012
Nabija wrote:
<quoted text> You must of cheated when they asked you your baptismal questions.
can you spot the lie or do you just blindly follow what ever is dished, one day sweet potatoe the next day maggots.

Can YOU spot the lie!

This Generation"
The Watchtower of February 15, 2008,(pages 23-25), offered an updated explanation regarding "this generation," as mentioned by Jesus at Matthew 24:34. But this was not a "new" understanding, as it returned to the interpretation of 81 years earlier, in the 1927 Watchtower, February 15, page 62.

The changing explanations over the years of "this generation":

C.T. Russell taught that "this generation" referred to people in general, who were living at a significant time in history.(Battle of Armageddon, pages 603-605)

J.F. Rutherford changed this in 1927 to apply only to the members of the "new creation," the anointed. "Some members of the new creation will be on the earth at the time of Armageddon." (W27, 2/15, p 62, click to view photocopy (res. 900x1191)

In 1942, "this generation" was no longer identified with just the anointed.(W42, 7/1, p 204, par. 43)

In 1949 it was more clearly explained that it "had its modern counterpart in our generation from A.D. 1914 forward. This generation is the one that sees the Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven as foretold by Daniel." It was expected that the generation of 1914 would be on hand to witness the end of this system.(W49, 7/15, p 215, par. 19)

By 1995 time for "this generation" had run out and the explanation needed to be updated. Therefore, "this generation" became "the wayward people who make up this contemporary 'wicked and adulterous generation,'" but no longer limited to any particular date.(w95 11/1 p. 15 par. 21)

Then in 2008, we were told: "As a class, these anointed ones make up the modern-day 'generation' of contemporaries that will not pass away 'until all these things occur.'" (W08, 2/15, p 23-25)

This explanation was a return to what had already been discredited.

The April 15, 2010 Watchtower adds the following "increased light": "[The word 'generation'] usually refers to people of varying ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period; it is not excessively long; and it has an end...[Jesus] evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end."

It's just as Isaiah foretold:
"O my people, those leading you on are causing [you] to wander, and the way of your paths they have confused... Jehovah himself will enter into judgment with the elderly ones of his people and its princes." —Isaiah 3:12-14.
Nabija

United States

#56 Nov 23, 2012
UNchained wrote:
<quoted text>
That question must have really hit home.
You mentioned nonsense...
JW's are encouraged to build up their spiritual brothers faith in an organisation and when one leaves the organisation he is viewed as one who has turned his back on God.
You're definitely not leaving the organisation to serve Jehovah somewhere else.
Like my new name

United States

#57 Nov 23, 2012
Again, round and round you go, where you stop nobody knows......
Like my new name

United States

#58 Nov 23, 2012
array wrote:
<quoted text>can you spot the lie or do you just blindly follow what ever is dished, one day sweet potatoe the next day maggots.
Can YOU spot the lie!
This Generation"
The Watchtower of February 15, 2008,(pages 23-25), offered an updated explanation regarding "this generation," as mentioned by Jesus at Matthew 24:34. But this was not a "new" understanding, as it returned to the interpretation of 81 years earlier, in the 1927 Watchtower, February 15, page 62.
The changing explanations over the years of "this generation":
C.T. Russell taught that "this generation" referred to people in general, who were living at a significant time in history.(Battle of Armageddon, pages 603-605)
J.F. Rutherford changed this in 1927 to apply only to the members of the "new creation," the anointed. "Some members of the new creation will be on the earth at the time of Armageddon." (W27, 2/15, p 62, click to view photocopy (res. 900x1191)
In 1942, "this generation" was no longer identified with just the anointed.(W42, 7/1, p 204, par. 43)
In 1949 it was more clearly explained that it "had its modern counterpart in our generation from A.D. 1914 forward. This generation is the one that sees the Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven as foretold by Daniel." It was expected that the generation of 1914 would be on hand to witness the end of this system.(W49, 7/15, p 215, par. 19)
By 1995 time for "this generation" had run out and the explanation needed to be updated. Therefore, "this generation" became "the wayward people who make up this contemporary 'wicked and adulterous generation,'" but no longer limited to any particular date.(w95 11/1 p. 15 par. 21)
Then in 2008, we were told: "As a class, these anointed ones make up the modern-day 'generation' of contemporaries that will not pass away 'until all these things occur.'" (W08, 2/15, p 23-25)
This explanation was a return to what had already been discredited.
The April 15, 2010 Watchtower adds the following "increased light": "[The word 'generation'] usually refers to people of varying ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period; it is not excessively long; and it has an end...[Jesus] evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end."
It's just as Isaiah foretold:
"O my people, those leading you on are causing [you] to wander, and the way of your paths they have confused... Jehovah himself will enter into judgment with the elderly ones of his people and its princes." —Isaiah 3:12-14.
Get to the point.

Since: Oct 10

Homebush, Australia

#59 Nov 23, 2012
Nabija wrote:
<quoted text> You must of cheated when they asked you your baptismal questions.
Apostasy, from Jehovah's standpoint, is a turning away from him and a rejection of his word.(Isaiah 9:16,17; Jer. 17:13, NWT)

Matt 23: 1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and his disciples, saying, 2 'The scribes and Pharisees have put themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 So, do whatever they tell you to do… yes, do and pay attention! But don't do what they do, because they talk but they don't [practice what they preach]. 4 They put together heavy loads to lay on men's shoulders, which they aren't willing to live a finger [to carry]. 5 Why, everything they do is just done to be seen by men. For they broaden the [scripture-carrying] cases they wear and make the fringes [on their clothes] a bit longer; 6 they like the first place at meals and [to sit in] the front seats in the synagogues; 7 and they like to be greeted in the markets and to have people call them Rabbi. 8 But not you! Don't [have people] call you rabbi, for you have but one teacher, while you are all brothers. 9 So, don't address anyone on earth as Father, because there's just One who is your Father, the Heavenly One. 10 Nor should you be called leaders, for you have but one Leader, the Anointed One. 11 However, the greatest among you must be your servant… 12 whoever promotes himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be promoted.13 'Woe to you scribes and Pharisees – hypocrites – because you block out the Kingdom of the heavens before men… you don't enter it, and you don't allow others who are on their way to enter it! 14 —— 15 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees – hypocrites – because you travel land and sea to make a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of the garbage dump as yourselves.

Governing Body = rulers.

1Cor 4: 8 So, are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you started ruling without us? Why, I wish that you had started ruling, so we could also be ruling along with you! 9 For, I think that God has put us (the Apostles) last on the show as men who are condemned to death… we've become a theatrical spectacle in this world to both men and angels! 10 And while we are fools because of the Anointed One, you are wise in the Anointed One… we're weak, but you're strong… we're dishonorable, but you're the glorious ones.
Aviela

United States

#60 Nov 23, 2012
array wrote:
<quoted text>can you spot the lie or do you just blindly follow what ever is dished, one day sweet potatoe the next day maggots.
Can YOU spot the lie!
This Generation"
The Watchtower of February 15, 2008,(pages 23-25), offered an updated explanation regarding "this generation," as mentioned by Jesus at Matthew 24:34. But this was not a "new" understanding, as it returned to the interpretation of 81 years earlier, in the 1927 Watchtower, February 15, page 62.
The changing explanations over the years of "this generation":
C.T. Russell taught that "this generation" referred to people in general, who were living at a significant time in history.(Battle of Armageddon, pages 603-605)
J.F. Rutherford changed this in 1927 to apply only to the members of the "new creation," the anointed. "Some members of the new creation will be on the earth at the time of Armageddon." (W27, 2/15, p 62, click to view photocopy (res. 900x1191)
In 1942, "this generation" was no longer identified with just the anointed.(W42, 7/1, p 204, par. 43)
In 1949 it was more clearly explained that it "had its modern counterpart in our generation from A.D. 1914 forward. This generation is the one that sees the Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven as foretold by Daniel." It was expected that the generation of 1914 would be on hand to witness the end of this system.(W49, 7/15, p 215, par. 19)
By 1995 time for "this generation" had run out and the explanation needed to be updated. Therefore, "this generation" became "the wayward people who make up this contemporary 'wicked and adulterous generation,'" but no longer limited to any particular date.(w95 11/1 p. 15 par. 21)
Then in 2008, we were told: "As a class, these anointed ones make up the modern-day 'generation' of contemporaries that will not pass away 'until all these things occur.'" (W08, 2/15, p 23-25)
This explanation was a return to what had already been discredited.
The April 15, 2010 Watchtower adds the following "increased light": "[The word 'generation'] usually refers to people of varying ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period; it is not excessively long; and it has an end...[Jesus] evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end."
It's just as Isaiah foretold:
"O my people, those leading you on are causing [you] to wander, and the way of your paths they have confused... Jehovah himself will enter into judgment with the elderly ones of his people and its princes." —Isaiah 3:12-14.
Oh boy....

Since: Oct 10

Homebush, Australia

#61 Nov 23, 2012
Like my new name wrote:
Again, round and round you go, where you stop nobody knows......
oh dear another name. well you can't defend so you come back under another name, its clear you are frightened of what your own faith teaches that is not true and how you can't defend it.
more to come.

Since: Oct 10

Homebush, Australia

#62 Nov 23, 2012
Like my new name wrote:
<quoted text> Get to the point.
what you meant was great point, but couldn't bring yourself to admit it!

now Yuni, why are you not being in submission to your GB, you know they regard you as mentally deseased and you would be refered to as an apostate for disagreeing and not being in submission to your elders.

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