Cross or Stake?
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Since: Mar 12

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#1 Aug 9, 2012
John 21:18-19
King James Version (KJV)

18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Since: Mar 12

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#2 Aug 9, 2012
Jesus neither carried the full cross or a full "stake" along the "Via Dolorosa", but only the cross bar. After taking the torture He endured, carrying either one would have not been possible. He was forced to carry the crossbeam that would have been attached to the upright permanent beam once they reached the place of execution.

Do the math on what the full "stake" or cross would have had to weigh. A healthy man could not tote it, much less after taking the torture Christ took.

Since: Mar 12

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#3 Aug 9, 2012
This is Justin(church father) speaking against Trypho.

Chapter XC.—The stretched-out hands of Moses signified beforehand the cross.
“Bring us on, then,” said [Trypho],“by the Scriptures, that we may also be persuaded by you; for we know that He should suffer and be led as a sheep. But prove to us whether He must be crucified and die so disgracefully and so dishonourably by the death cursed in the law. 2302 For we cannot bring ourselves even to think of this.”

“You know,” said I,“that what the prophets said and did they veiled by parables and types, as you admitted to us; so that it was not easy for all to understand the most [of what they said], since they concealed the truth by these means, that those who are eager to find out and learn it might do so with much labour.”

They answered,“We admitted this.”

“Listen, therefore,” say I,“to what follows; for Moses first exhibited this seeming curse of Christ’s by the signs which he made.”

“Of what [signs] do you speak?” said he.

“When the people,” replied I,“waged war with Amalek, and the son of Nave (Nun) by name Jesus (Joshua), led the fight, Moses himself prayed to God, stretching out both hands, and Hur with Aaron supported them during the whole day, so that they might not hang down when he got wearied. For if he gave up any part of this sign, which was an imitation of the cross, the people were beaten, as is recorded in the writings of Moses; but if he remained in this form, Amalek was proportionally defeated, and he who prevailed prevailed by the cross. For it was not because Moses so prayed that the people were stronger, but because, while one who bore the name of Jesus (Joshua) was in the forefront of the battle, he himself made the sign of the cross. For who of you knows not that the prayer of one who accompanies it with lamentation and tears, with the body prostrate, or with bended knees, propitiates God most of all? But in such a manner neither he nor any other one, while sitting on a stone, prayed. Nor even the stone symbolized Christ, as I have shown.
abrother

Muskegon, MI

#4 Aug 9, 2012
If he died on cross, then what kind?
grand theologist master

Chicago, IL

#5 Aug 9, 2012
abrother wrote:
If he died on cross, then what kind?
Well bro back in the time of jesus they used an upright pole that was stationary.Then they forced the condemed to carry a beam across their back as punishment.Then when they got to the upright pole the condemed was hoisted up the pole which formed a cross.The reason the wt wants to say he died on a upright pole is so they can seperste their views from the rest of the world therefore driving a wedge between their members and society.It worked cause jw's think they have the truth and the correct views on everything.Yet it is for control and that only.The wt can care less what he died on.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#6 Aug 9, 2012
Kevin~

THANK YOU SO MUCH for starting this thread!

I'm really hoping some Witnesses (or Witness Supporters) chime in with anything remotely historically factual along the lines of "stake" vs "cross".

It is an issue that I have had for many many years. The implement used doesn't lessen Jesus' sacrifice in any way....the Witnesses put SO MUCH emphasis (to the point of obsession) on the whole "cross" issue....I'd just really like some clarification and proof.

Thanks again!

Corinthian

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#7 Aug 9, 2012
Actually the lame JW apologist 'abrother' asks an important question; What kind?

http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/simple...

There were at least 4 different types of crucifixion devices used back then.

I personally don't see what is so important about it other than what GTM said "The reason the wt wants to say he died on a upright pole is so they can seperste their views from the rest of the world therefore driving a wedge between their members and society.It worked cause jw's think they have the truth and the correct views on everything."

Does anyone have physical evidence of the type used for Jesus? Or is it just an argument "ex post facto?"

No pun intended.

Since: Mar 12

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#8 Aug 9, 2012
This should settle the matter.

Anyone would do well to read the entire apology.

He makes a defense of christianity against Rome.

The Octavius of Minucius Felix

Chapter 29. Argument: Nor is It More True that a Man Fastened to a Cross on Account of His Crimes is Worshipped by Christians, for They Believe Not Only that He Was Innocent, But with Reason that He Was God. But, on the Other Hand, the Heathens Invoke the Divine Powers of Kings Raised into Gods by Themselves; They Pray to Images, and Beseech Their Genii.
These, and such as these infamous things, we are not at liberty even to hear; it is even disgraceful with any more words to defend ourselves from such charges. For you pretend that those things are done by chaste and modest persons, which we should not believe to be done at all, unless you proved that they were true concerning yourselves. For in that you attribute to our religion the worship of a criminal and his cross, you wander far from the neighbourhood of the truth, in thinking either that a criminal deserved, or that an earthly being was able, to be believed God. Miserable indeed is that man whose whole hope is dependent on mortal man, for all his help is put an end to with the extinction of the man. The Egyptians certainly choose out a man for themselves whom they may worship; him alone they propitiate; him they consult about all things; to him they slaughter victims; and he who to others is a god, to himself is certainly a man whether he will or no, for he does not deceive his own consciousness, if he deceives that of others. Moreover, a false flattery disgracefully caresses princes and kings, not as great and chosen men, as is just, but as gods; whereas honour is more truly rendered to an illustrious man, and love is more pleasantly given to a very good man. Thus they invoke their deity, they supplicate their images, they implore their Genius, that is, their demon; and it is safer to swear falsely by the genius of Jupiter than by that of a king. Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for. You, indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as parts of your gods. For your very standards, as well as your banners; and flags of your camp, what else are they but crosses glided and adorned? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it. We assuredly see the sign of a cross, naturally, in the ship when it is carried along with swelling sails, when it glides forward with expanded oars; and when the military yoke is lifted up, it is the sign of a cross; and when a man adores God with a pure mind, with hands outstretched. Thus the sign of the cross either is sustained by a natural reason, or your own religion is formed with respect to it.

Since: Mar 12

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#9 Aug 9, 2012
Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 3(EARLY CHURCH FATHER)

Chapter XVIII.—Continuation of the foregoing argument. Proofs from the writings of St. Paul, and from the words of Our Lord, that Christ and Jesus cannot be considered as distinct beings; neither can it be alleged that the Son of God became man merely in appearance, but that He did so truly and actually.

"4. The Lord Himself, too, makes it evident who it was that suffered; for when He asked the disciples,“Who do men say that I, the Son of man, am?” 3648 and when Peter had replied,“Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God;” and when he had been commended by Him [in these words],“That flesh and blood had not revealed it to him, but the Father who is in heaven,” He made it clear that He, the Son of man, is Christ the Son of the living God.“For from that time forth,” it is said,“He began to show to His disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem, p. 447 and suffer many things of the priests, and be rejected, and crucified, and rise again the third day.” 3649 He who was acknowledged by Peter as Christ, who pronounced him blessed because the Father had revealed the Son of the living God to him, said that He must Himself suffer many things, and be crucified; and then He rebuked Peter, who imagined that He was the Christ as the generality of men supposed 3650 [that the Christ should be], and was averse to the idea of His suffering,[and] said to the disciples,“If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whosoever will save his life, shall lose it; and whosoever will lose it for My sake shall save it.” 3651 For these things Christ spoke openly, He being Himself the Saviour of those who should be delivered over to death for their confession of Him, and lose their lives."

Since: Mar 12

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#10 Aug 9, 2012
Kevin 321 wrote:
This should settle the matter.
Anyone would do well to read the entire apology.
He makes a defense of christianity against Rome.
The Octavius of Minucius Felix
Chapter 29. Argument: Nor is It More True that a Man Fastened to a Cross on Account of His Crimes is Worshipped by Christians, for They Believe Not Only that He Was Innocent, But with Reason that He Was God. But, on the Other Hand, the Heathens Invoke the Divine Powers of Kings Raised into Gods by Themselves; They Pray to Images, and Beseech Their Genii.
These, and such as these infamous things, we are not at liberty even to hear; it is even disgraceful with any more words to defend ourselves from such charges. For you pretend that those things are done by chaste and modest persons, which we should not believe to be done at all, unless you proved that they were true concerning yourselves. For in that you attribute to our religion the worship of a criminal and his cross, you wander far from the neighbourhood of the truth, in thinking either that a criminal deserved, or that an earthly being was able, to be believed God. Miserable indeed is that man whose whole hope is dependent on mortal man, for all his help is put an end to with the extinction of the man. The Egyptians certainly choose out a man for themselves whom they may worship; him alone they propitiate; him they consult about all things; to him they slaughter victims; and he who to others is a god, to himself is certainly a man whether he will or no, for he does not deceive his own consciousness, if he deceives that of others. Moreover, a false flattery disgracefully caresses princes and kings, not as great and chosen men, as is just, but as gods; whereas honour is more truly rendered to an illustrious man, and love is more pleasantly given to a very good man. Thus they invoke their deity, they supplicate their images, they implore their Genius, that is, their demon; and it is safer to swear falsely by the genius of Jupiter than by that of a king. Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for. You, indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as parts of your gods. For your very standards, as well as your banners; and flags of your camp, what else are they but crosses glided and adorned? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it. We assuredly see the sign of a cross, naturally, in the ship when it is carried along with swelling sails, when it glides forward with expanded oars; and when the military yoke is lifted up, it is the sign of a cross; and when a man adores God with a pure mind, with hands outstretched. Thus the sign of the cross either is sustained by a natural reason, or your own religion is formed with respect to it.
written between 150-270 AD
Mardana

Dixon, CA

#11 Aug 9, 2012
.
From The Jewish Encyclopedia :

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/47...

Excerpts :

The crosses used were of different shapes...The more common kind consisted of a stake firmly embedded in the ground before the condemned arrived at the place of execution, and a cross-beam ("patibulum")

It was this cross-beam, not the heavy stake, which the condemned was compelled to carry to the scene of execution.

==========

I read once that the crossbeam alone would have weighed about 75-100 lbs.

.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#12 Aug 9, 2012
Does it matter what jesus died on?
religion grand master

Chicago, IL

#13 Aug 9, 2012
Open Minded Bible Student wrote:
Does it matter what jesus died on?
It realy doesnt matter.Yet the wt pushes that view of a tourture stake when most all other religions believe it was a cross.The wt even had a cross and masonic symbol on their book covers when they started out.Thats when their founder said jesus came down "Invisibly" and approved all charlie russel was doing back then.He also celebrated birthdays,christmass and easter.So according to charlie jesus just loved the holidays.
religion grand master

Chicago, IL

#15 Aug 9, 2012
SOS wrote:
<quoted text>I have a question for you,
WHAT LIFE EXPERIENCE DO YOU HAVE AND WHAT COLLEGE COURSES DID YOU TAKE TO LABEL YOURSELF AS "religion grand master"?
OR ARE YOU A FREEMASON?
I sir am your superior.I carry three degrees in theology. I teach pastors pro bono. Good Day sir!
little lamb

Australia

#16 Aug 9, 2012
Jesus showed Thomas the nail marks in his hands, and wound in his side had Thomas place his hands there.

So whether his hands were nailed outstreched or straight up..Our Lord died for you and me.

To argue on what postion his hands were in, is petty and foolish..as the whole sacrifice of Jesus is reduced to stupid squabbling.
religion grand master

Chicago, IL

#17 Aug 9, 2012
SOS wrote:
<quoted text>I have a question for you,
WHAT LIFE EXPERIENCE DO YOU HAVE AND WHAT COLLEGE COURSES DID YOU TAKE TO LABEL YOURSELF AS "religion grand master"?
OR ARE YOU A FREEMASON?
Well now that you mention free mason.Your founder of your little cult was a free mason and used mant free mason ideas for his cult.He even had crosses and free mason symbols on all his wt printed book covers.He is burried in a free mason cemetary where he wanted to be.So please do your home work.If ya cant keep up with us big dogs stay the hell on the porch!!!!!

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#18 Aug 9, 2012
religion grand master wrote:
<quoted text> Well now that you mention free mason.Your founder of your little cult was a free mason and used mant free mason ideas for his cult.He even had crosses and free mason symbols on all his wt printed book covers.He is burried in a free mason cemetary where he wanted to be.So please do your home work.If ya cant keep up with us big dogs stay the hell on the porch!!!!!
SOS is not a jw...

Since: Feb 07

RI

#19 Aug 9, 2012
Open Minded Bible Student wrote:
Does it matter what jesus died on?
No, it doesn't.
unlisted

Greensboro, NC

#20 Aug 9, 2012
no it does not matter and it was a cross.. we remember him as he died and came back to us.. we pray and yes we make the sign of the cross in respect. has nothing to do with paganism..

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#21 Aug 9, 2012
Open Minded Bible Student wrote:
Does it matter what jesus died on?
OMBS~

No, Hon, it doesn't matter....at least not to me. I was taught to have such a strong aversion to it plus ALL of the negative connotations placed on crosses makes me question the validity of the statements.

My cousin's friend posted a link by some obscure person stating Jesus died on an upright stake, and responded with ,"It's what we've known all along." So, I engaged with the exact question you just asked.

Her response?

"Uh, well, because so many religions believe he died on a cross and they worship the cross, so it's kind of a big point." (paraphrased)

Corinthian

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