When did Jesus become King?

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Since: Jul 10

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Apr 10, 2011
 

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Was discussing this with my dad who is an elder yesterday. JWs claim Jesus did not become king until like 2000 years after he ascended to heaven. However when you read the Bible independent of the WT you get a different picture. Take for example Matt.28:18 which quotes Jesus after his ascension to heaven saying, "all authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
At Eph 1:20-22 the apostle explains Christ's rulership from the right hand of God "far above ever govt and authority and power and lordship.....He also subjected all thongs under his feet...." So the New Testament speaks in unison as to how Christ became King when he was resurrected, but the WT does not.
This is probably why the GB doesn't want people reading the Bible alone; they just might stumble on real truth for a change.
JWitness forum

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#2
Apr 10, 2011
 

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Greetings,

Thank you for your question.

Jesus was indeed given AUTHORITY (added power) upon his return to heaven in 33 CE, however God's Kingdom (heavenly govenment) was not due to go into operation for some 2000 years.

Thus Psalms 110 v 1 1 “Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

Jesus disciples also expected him to take immediate control of the planet in Kingdom power in the first century, Luke reports in Acts them asking him

"“Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” 7 He said to them:“It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction"

Effectively Jesus told them, you preach, and leave the *timetable* of events with God.

Indeed Jesus had earlier indicated that the Kindom would come only after a long wait,(see Matthew chapter 13).

So the bible indicates that while Jesus HAD the power his EXERCISE of that power fully would indeed be only after a delay.

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#3
Apr 10, 2011
 
JWitness forum wrote:
Greetings,
Thank you for your question.
Jesus was indeed given AUTHORITY (added power) upon his return to heaven in 33 CE, however God's Kingdom (heavenly govenment) was not due to go into operation for some 2000 years.
Thus Psalms 110 v 1 1 “Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
Jesus disciples also expected him to take immediate control of the planet in Kingdom power in the first century, Luke reports in Acts them asking him
"“Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” 7 He said to them:“It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction"
Effectively Jesus told them, you preach, and leave the *timetable* of events with God.
Indeed Jesus had earlier indicated that the Kindom would come only after a long wait,(see Matthew chapter 13).
So the bible indicates that while Jesus HAD the power his EXERCISE of that power fully would indeed be only after a delay.
The effects of the Kingdom on earth and whether he is King are two different things. Matt and Eph, as well as the NT speak of Jesus given authority in the past tense, something that already took place. Eph 1:21 says not only in this system of things but also in that to come."
I also find your phrase "leave the timetable of events with God" surprising since JW eschatology does anything but that.
JWitness forum

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Apr 10, 2011
 

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Che 3000 wrote:
<quoted text>
The effects of the Kingdom on earth and whether he is King are two different things.
Yes, indeed, that is exactly the point.

Jesus was given authority, indeed Paul speaks about the "kingdom of the son of God's love" in Col 1:13, so he indeed has authoity which he has been using effectively but who would be the KING(dom) of that KINGDOM the effects of which we are waiting for? Clearly Jesus' authority in that capacity has been on "hold" as it were and it is that that we pray for.

The significants of his being made king, in that very specific role, is to do with the end of the gentile times and it's connection with taking up the "throne of David" (see scriptures quoted above)

So while we may not agree with the specific terms we both agree in SOME capacity the KING-dom did not take effect on the earth.

Good question though,

JWF
clock set til 5212011

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#5
Apr 10, 2011
 

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Jesus is KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS
from everlasting past
Alpha and Omega

JW jesus? is reincarnated creature rutheford and his demonic earthly doctrines worked in past for his own glamour and today for those little blinds own position and own proud
rus v

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#6
Apr 10, 2011
 
Che 3000 wrote:
Was discussing this with my dad who is an elder yesterday. JWs claim Jesus did not become king until like 2000 years after he ascended to heaven. However when you read the Bible independent of the WT you get a different picture. Take for example Matt.28:18 which quotes Jesus after his ascension to heaven saying, "all authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
At Eph 1:20-22 the apostle explains Christ's rulership from the right hand of God "far above ever govt and authority and power and lordship.....He also subjected all thongs under his feet...." So the New Testament speaks in unison as to how Christ became King when he was resurrected, but the WT does not.
This is probably why the GB doesn't want people reading the Bible alone; they just might stumble on real truth for a change.
Hello CHE !

You may read this study:

http://reslight.net/forum/index.php/topic,862...

rus v.
fada oh fada

Schaumburg, IL

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#7
Apr 10, 2011
 
Che 3000 wrote:
Was discussing this with my dad who is an elder yesterday. JWs claim Jesus did not become king until like 2000 years after he ascended to heaven. However when you read the Bible independent of the WT you get a different picture. Take for example Matt.28:18 which quotes Jesus after his ascension to heaven saying, "all authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
At Eph 1:20-22 the apostle explains Christ's rulership from the right hand of God "far above ever govt and authority and power and lordship.....He also subjected all thongs under his feet...." So the New Testament speaks in unison as to how Christ became King when he was resurrected, but the WT does not.
This is probably why the GB doesn't want people reading the Bible alone; they just might stumble on real truth for a change.
thats because god is omnipresent.He had to lower himself to become jesus on earth. then when jesus ascended to heaven he became gods equal again.

“Mystical Atheism for everyone!”

Since: Nov 08

El Cerrito California

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#8
Apr 11, 2011
 
Actually the historical Jesus was an egalitarian and tried to show how the Cosmos functions in reality in expressing the infinite unconditional LOVE that is GOD.

The Romans murdered him and replaced his simple egalitarian mystical truth with an amalgamation of pagan myths and replaced him with the Mithra myth which was popular with the Roman soldiers. This patriarchal hierarchical form of false Christianity is the only form of Christianity that most people today are familiar with with.

Fortunately today with the discovery of ancient documents such as the Nag Hamadi library being discovered, translated, and put on line for all to examine we are finding more and more evidence for the early form of egalitarian Christianity and today with the confirmation of Bell's theorem the OMNIPRESENT GOD of Israel can no longer be doubted:

http://www.integratedmagic.com/faqs/78-did-qu...

We all need to get informed as to the seriousness of the problem of religions that perpetuate the fragmentation of humanity and get involved in restoring the Christianity of the historical Jesus to humanity!

GOD is LOVE. WE are ALL ONE WITH GOD, even the unloving!
e-watchman

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#9
Apr 11, 2011
 

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Che 3000 wrote:
Was discussing this with my dad who is an elder yesterday. JWs claim Jesus did not become king until like 2000 years after he ascended to heaven. However when you read the Bible independent of the WT you get a different picture. Take for example Matt.28:18 which quotes Jesus after his ascension to heaven saying, "all authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
At Eph 1:20-22 the apostle explains Christ's rulership from the right hand of God "far above ever govt and authority and power and lordship.....He also subjected all thongs under his feet...." So the New Testament speaks in unison as to how Christ became King when he was resurrected, but the WT does not.
This is probably why the GB doesn't want people reading the Bible alone; they just might stumble on real truth for a change.
If you are going to read the Bible read Revelation- the 11th chapter in particular. It makes mention that the kingdom of the world is given to Christ and Christ subsequently brings to ruin those who are ruining the earth. Obviously that has not happened yet. Also, read the 25th chapter of Matthew. It states:'When the Son of man arrives with all his angels and sits down on his glorious throne...' And it goes on to mention that all the nations are made to stand before the throne. Obviously that hasn't taken place either.

Yes, Jesus was given authority as king long ago, but his kingdom has not fully come to power. So, while it is good that you are reading the Bible don't think for a moment that you have stumbled upon some great truth that is hidden from Jehovah's Witnesses. You are merely deluding yourself.

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#10
Apr 11, 2011
 

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Che 3000 wrote:
<quoted text>
The effects of the Kingdom on earth and whether he is King are two different things. Matt and Eph, as well as the NT speak of Jesus given authority in the past tense, something that already took place. Eph 1:21 says not only in this system of things but also in that to come."
I also find your phrase "leave the timetable of events with God" surprising since JW eschatology does anything but that.
What do you think Jesus means by this?

*** Luke 19:12 He said therefore, "A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

*** Luke 19:13 He called ten servants of his, and gave them ten mina coins,* and told them,'Conduct business until I come.'

This is about Jesus. he is telling his disciples that he will go away from them "to receive for himself a kingdom". The place he is going is 'far away' indicating that it will take him a long time.

So he won't be receiving THAT kingdom until AFTER he 'goes away' or 'dies'.

In fact, he indicates that he will not receive that kingdom until his disciples had conducted the business he gives them on his behalf in his absence. Only then will he return to be king over them:

*** Luke 19:15 "It happened when he had come back again, having received the kingdom, that he commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by conducting business.

See? He returns to be king over them only AFTER the long delay of his journey to secure the kingdom.

Then he will execute those who do not want him to be king over them:

*** Luke 19:27 But bring those enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them here, and kill them before me.
JW proclaim bible TRUTHS

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#11
Apr 12, 2011
 

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Gareth wrote:
<quoted text>
What do you think Jesus means by this?
*** Luke 19:12 He said therefore, "A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
*** Luke 19:13 He called ten servants of his, and gave them ten mina coins,* and told them,'Conduct business until I come.'
This is about Jesus. he is telling his disciples that he will go away from them "to receive for himself a kingdom". The place he is going is 'far away' indicating that it will take him a long time.
So he won't be receiving THAT kingdom until AFTER he 'goes away' or 'dies'.
In fact, he indicates that he will not receive that kingdom until his disciples had conducted the business he gives them on his behalf in his absence. Only then will he return to be king over them:
*** Luke 19:15 "It happened when he had come back again, having received the kingdom, that he commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by conducting business.
See? He returns to be king over them only AFTER the long delay of his journey to secure the kingdom.
Then he will execute those who do not want him to be king over them:
*** Luke 19:27 But bring those enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them here, and kill them before me.
excellent point

(notice no reply can be made to that!)
red blood relative

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#12
Apr 12, 2011
 

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Gareth wrote:
<quoted text>
What do you think Jesus means by this?
*** Luke 19:12 He said therefore, "A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
*** Luke 19:13 He called ten servants of his, and gave them ten mina coins,* and told them,'Conduct business until I come.'
This is about Jesus. he is telling his disciples that he will go away from them "to receive for himself a kingdom". The place he is going is 'far away' indicating that it will take him a long time.
So he won't be receiving THAT kingdom until AFTER he 'goes away' or 'dies'.
In fact, he indicates that he will not receive that kingdom until his disciples had conducted the business he gives them on his behalf in his absence. Only then will he return to be king over them:
*** Luke 19:15 "It happened when he had come back again, having received the kingdom, that he commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by conducting business.
See? He returns to be king over them only AFTER the long delay of his journey to secure the kingdom.
Then he will execute those who do not want him to be king over them:
*** Luke 19:27 But bring those enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them here, and kill them before me.
its all about when jesus returns and judges his slaves whom he gave the talents too.
......its all about the body of christ living and doing works until the finalli...... at that point, his faithful slaves are judged worthy of being appointed to be kings and priests, and sealed for the marriage of the lamb.

those wicked slaves who ran ahead with a fake coming of christ and appointed themselves to rule in 1874-1878 and the sly swapperoo to 1914-1919 are then put in the refuse pile.

Since: Oct 10

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#13
Apr 12, 2011
 

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Since there are no good reasons to believe that the 1914 chronology is true, it stands to reason that the texts mentioned by the beginner of this thread are completely consistent with the position that Jesus was made king at the ascension.

If anyone would like to challenge me on this in more detail, I would invite you to interact with the paper I wrote on 1914:

http://www.theapologeticfront.com/2010/12/did...
red blood relative

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#14
Apr 13, 2011
 

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JW proclaim bible TRUTHS wrote:
<quoted text>
excellent point
(notice no reply can be made to that!)
hey jw pr rep,..... where are you?
jesus was made king after he went back up to heaven, and he is waiting till armageddon to squash his enemies..... there is no such thing as a 1874-1878 invisible come back, with a sly swapperoo to a 1914-1919 come back getting appointed to be king.

your wicked false prophet angel of light with the fake coming of jesus made all that nonsense up to capture some sincere sheep, and teach them that the door to heaven is shut, and now, to please god, they need to OPENLY REJECT UNION WITH CHRIST, and OPENLY REFUSE TO EAT THE BREAD AND DRINK THE WINE.... matt 24;24

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#15
Apr 14, 2011
 
sorry for the late reply; been studying for finals + working + kids....my head is spinning!

But.....

WTBS claims that in 1914, Jesus Christ established His heavenly kingdom which the physical city of Jerusalem, in its time typified. But the Bible seems to contradict this in Rev 11: 15 and then Gal. 4:24-26, showing heavenly Jerusalem to be already established in the heavens. So if this kingdom was already established, what did Jesus set-up in 1914? Why couldn't Jerusalem in Luke 21:24 simply mean the city of Jerusalem, the
actual CITY?

In Luke 21:24 Jesus shows the “trampling of the nations” would continue “until the appointed times of the nations is fulfilled.” This would be a future event and this trampling could not be heavenly Jerusalem, as it was never trampled. In 1914 no visible king was set up in Jerusalem.
Also, the method of calculation; “a day for a year” or a "prophetic day" used to arrive at 2520 yrs from 607, is not based on a sound biblical formula. The formula the WTBS uses is derived from how they use Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 respectively, but the scriptures do not establish any formula. These scriptures refer to in Numbers as a time of punishment, nothing more, and Ezekiel is taken right out of its natural context of judgements against Israel and Judah, reflecting time, the majority of which was in the past. It does not fulfill the same purpose as the verse in Numbers, making it unlikely to be any kind of 'prophetic formula' for working out dates.
Also there is 607 from which the WT applies its prophetic formula to as a countdown date to 1914. It finds no support from experts in history or archeology. Further evidence has come to the forefront in the form of documentation written at that time, i.e. Babylonian Chronicles further showing why the claim of Jerusalem being destroyed in 607 a false statement.

And then, as I opened the thread with, Matt 28 shows that ALL authority was given to Jesus. What more authority can be given to him?

I think this is just part of the argument and others can argue it much better than I can. I feel the doctrine of 1914 is far from a slam dunk case and is far from being irrefutable. Why are JWs so afraid to look to the out pouring of light that brings the truth into focus? I mean, its right there!
Mecijah

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#16
May 8, 2011
 
Che 3000 wrote:
sorry for the late reply; been studying for finals + working + kids....my head is spinning!
But.....
WTBS claims that in 1914, Jesus Christ established His heavenly kingdom which the physical city of Jerusalem, in its time typified. But the Bible seems to contradict this in Rev 11: 15 and then Gal. 4:24-26, showing heavenly Jerusalem to be already established in the heavens. So if this kingdom was already established, what did Jesus set-up in 1914? Why couldn't Jerusalem in Luke 21:24 simply mean the city of Jerusalem, the
actual CITY?
In Luke 21:24 Jesus shows the “trampling of the nations” would continue “until the appointed times of the nations is fulfilled.” This would be a future event and this trampling could not be heavenly Jerusalem, as it was never trampled. In 1914 no visible king was set up in Jerusalem.
Also, the method of calculation; “a day for a year” or a "prophetic day" used to arrive at 2520 yrs from 607, is not based on a sound biblical formula. The formula the WTBS uses is derived from how they use Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 respectively, but the scriptures do not establish any formula. These scriptures refer to in Numbers as a time of punishment, nothing more, and Ezekiel is taken right out of its natural context of judgements against Israel and Judah, reflecting time, the majority of which was in the past. It does not fulfill the same purpose as the verse in Numbers, making it unlikely to be any kind of 'prophetic formula' for working out dates.
Also there is 607 from which the WT applies its prophetic formula to as a countdown date to 1914. It finds no support from experts in history or archeology. Further evidence has come to the forefront in the form of documentation written at that time, i.e. Babylonian Chronicles further showing why the claim of Jerusalem being destroyed in 607 a false statement.
And then, as I opened the thread with, Matt 28 shows that ALL authority was given to Jesus. What more authority can be given to him?
I think this is just part of the argument and others can argue it much better than I can. I feel the doctrine of 1914 is far from a slam dunk case and is far from being irrefutable. Why are JWs so afraid to look to the out pouring of light that brings the truth into focus? I mean, its right there!
Greetings,
thank you all for such great kjnowledge of the Bible.
What about the reproduction of Jerusalem built by God himself in Ethiopia?
Emperor Haile Selassie I King of Kings Lord of Lords was crowned november 2nd 1930 and he sat upon the throne of David his ancestor. leaders of all nations were there and they all bowed before HIM. I wonder if considering the length of the years at the time of the written word we couldn't win 16 years so it would take us to 1930 end of october, beginning of november. Actually I am convinced but we are not discussing faith but proofs.
Thank you for reading
Blessed love

Since: Feb 11

Tucson, AZ

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#17
May 9, 2011
 

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Che 3000 wrote:
Was discussing this with my dad who is an elder yesterday. JWs claim Jesus did not become king until like 2000 years after he ascended to heaven. However when you read the Bible independent of the WT you get a different picture. Take for example Matt.28:18 which quotes Jesus after his ascension to heaven saying, "all authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
At Eph 1:20-22 the apostle explains Christ's rulership from the right hand of God "far above ever govt and authority and power and lordship.....He also subjected all thongs under his feet...." So the New Testament speaks in unison as to how Christ became King when he was resurrected, but the WT does not.
This is probably why the GB doesn't want people reading the Bible alone; they just might stumble on real truth for a change.
That "authority" though, just as Jesus "conquering" the world, was an affirmation of a reality on progress. He though not being fully tested yet, said he conquered the world. That was not final then, but by faith it was as good as done, and it would lead to his final conquering and final conquest.

The below "rulership", is at the 7th trumpet (1914):

(Revelation 11:15). . .And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying:“The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”

The final authority in heaven, is at Satan removal (1914):

(Revelation 12:9-11). . .So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:“NOW have come to pass

the salvation
and the power
and the kingdom of our God
and the authority of his Christ,

BECAUSE the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing. . .

That the "conquest", has a "conquering" phase, that leads to the "final conquest" of Armageddon, is in:

(Revelation 6:2). . .""And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow;

AND a crown was given him,

AND he went forth conquering

AND to complete his conquest.""

So, it's a process we are now being made aware of in detail.

==========

God is perfect, ordered and deep. What we do know, is his word though understandable, is not a comic strip to be understood in a snap.

The way God has done these things in heaven, is according to a now revealed, wise pattern. It has these phases because this is a complex issue Satan and Adam have fomented.

It is affecting Heaven AND earth, and God, angels and man. This is going to take wisdom, God's design perfect, and God's timetable, not ours or anyone else's, but God's appointed times, to fix this mess that goes beyond the universe to heaven, and back to earth.

Do not be fooled, this is very real, and very much in the process of being dealt with for all eternity, ONE day at a time.

It's very interesting as well, and God does draw man to his word. Even controversy serves God's wisdom, that investigation, study, contemplation and request to God, would be increased by these controversies, and God would draw humans into the only solution on this earth, the truth in God's bible.

It's all here in detail, so never give up looking into it, as if your life depended on it, because it does. That's what we are all in, in this Satanic/Adamic mess. But God promised a way out, and knowledge and instruction is part of it, and why we have a brain, and the bible. If we truly study it, all of it, constantly, it will be revealed.

The solution to all mankind's problems, and all heaven's enemies, is on it's way as we speak.

red blood relative

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#18
May 10, 2011
 
hi jws..... rev 11;15 is during the great tribulation, when the two witnesses are killed....

look at the nice pictures of moses and elijah bringing down fire from heaven in the
...[ jw publication ... revelation, its grand climax at hand, pages 166 or so.]

you see, jws... your leadership claim the great tribulation already happened in 1914-1919.... but they are doing their best to think up some tricky talk swapperoo to keep you a member, even though you are figuring out that they self-appointed themselves with a fake coming of christ

.... it will all be in one of your next watchtower studies in the near future, since there is considerable loss of membership going on as you figure it all out..... the answers will be in the paragraph.... please make sure you underline the correct answer with a yellow highlighter felt pen.

after you go home later, after the wathchtower study, pat yourself on the back for repeating the correct answer that was highlited in yellow.

Since: Feb 11

Tucson, AZ

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#19
May 10, 2011
 

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red blood relative wrote:
hi jws..... rev 11;15 is during the great tribulation, when the two witnesses are killed....
look at the nice pictures of moses and elijah bringing down fire from heaven in the
...[ jw publication ... revelation, its grand climax at hand, pages 166 or so.]
you see, jws... your leadership claim the great tribulation already happened in 1914-1919.... but they are doing their best to think up some tricky talk swapperoo to keep you a member, even though you are figuring out that they self-appointed themselves with a fake coming of christ
.... it will all be in one of your next watchtower studies in the near future, since there is considerable loss of membership going on as you figure it all out..... the answers will be in the paragraph.... please make sure you underline the correct answer with a yellow highlighter felt pen.
after you go home later, after the wathchtower study, pat yourself on the back for repeating the correct answer that was highlited in yellow.
After all the evidence you have been presented with, it shows you would rather hold on to your own illusions, which meet your needs, than respond to clear proof of the issues you have raised.

If you were interested in the real truth, and not your invented, handy and suitable version of it, you would want to see it. Your personal views are yours alone, and they suit your life and will, nit the reality of God's final will for earth, in process.

You have to throw out the obstacles you are holding on to, and desire the truth, to see it, denial cannot help you in the days we are about to face for real.
red blood relative

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#20
May 11, 2011
 
letS cover the facts again, jehovah's witnesses.

40 days after jesus died he went back up to heaven he was crowned king and given all authority as he poured out the promised holy spirit as a helper to the bride of christ.

next, he waited for his bride to be chosen and completed...while he waited for his ememies to then be done away with, as the true temple would then rule the earth.

soon the anti christ will take full rulership, and the bride of christ will be raised up almost complete, awaiting the last few of their brothers to join them... rev 6;11

at that point satan is cast out of heaven and inhibits the anti christ, and he persecutes the remaining ones of the seed of the woman for 42 months till its complete..... then the marriage of the lamb takes place with the completed number, and the second half of the great tribulation begins as the wild beast is destroyed by continuing plauges, until the true temple comes down from heaven and takes rulership of the earth...

now, where does jw leadership fit into this picture?

they are the false prophets running ahead, with the wicked angel of light and the numerology that came along with a FAKE COMING OF JESUS, that they used to self-appoint themselvs to rule, to capture if possible, some sincere christians, and teach them to OPENLY DENY UNION WITH THE BODY OF CHRIST, while PUBLICLY REFUSING to eat the bread and drink the wine... matt 24;24
----------
questions at the bottom

1... did you think jesus was kidding when he warned you about false prophets coming along with a fake coming of himself?

2....did jesus say to follow them, or to NOT FOLLOW THEM?

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