Thirdwitness: Literally 144,000 humans?
JACE

Bethesda, MD

#21 Sep 20, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
I do not come here to promote my personal opinions.
I come here to promote the views of the Christian congregation. I accept and believe that the Christian congregation could be wrong about a number of things. But regardless if they are or not, their current beliefs harmonize with the scriptures.
Regarding the 144,000 the scriptural evidence presented is compelling and I believe the number to be literal BASED UPON the evidence presented THUS FAR.
Would it be devastating to me if the Congregation View changed on this matter? Not at all, its hardly very important to anything much. But as long as the Congregation View harmonizes with the scriptures then I respect it above and beyond my own. I do that because my views can be wrong as can those of the Christian Congregation. However I recognise that the views of the Christian Congregation "as a whole" have ALWAYS been superior to my own "as a whole" when examined in detail. They have continually taught me a view of scripture that harmonizes with the WHOLE Bible far more than my research on its own would have lead me to discover.
Moreover I recognize that Jesus is leading the Whole Congregation into truth and that he is NOT leading each individual to a different truth.
I love this guy note:

I do that because my views can be wrong as can those of the Christian Congregation.

######

"those of the Christian Congregation"

Gareth please stop it man, why do you make a fool out of yourself all the time

there is no such thing as THE CONGO VIEW,
There is the WT Editorial staff's view and that is parroted by the rest of jw, if they were to change views 3 times in 2 weeks, the rank and file would change
not because its THEIR VIEW, BUT cause they are parroted the wt writers

See Gareth when you talk to NONJW they fully understand that its really JUST THE WT WRITERS VIEW, the poor jw are merely just repeating what they have been told

so please stop using that silly phraseology as if the little old black sister in Tenn came up with this VIEW

AS the old friends use to tell me when I went back home from bethel

"Bro Jace works where the books are printed"

and that may friend is the bottomline for jw

when the writers change their wrong views to a NEW WRONG VIEW, jw do the same
JACE

Bethesda, MD

#22 Sep 20, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
Jace's problem is that every different cab driver will take him to a different place and NONE of them will be the right destination.
At least MY cab driver will get to the correct destination ON TIME even if it takes in some scenery on the way.
now even you know that will get you a "W" for illustrations in the third hall

Gareth there reaches a point where you realize as you pass the hotel for the 15 time WHILE THE METER IS WRONG that your boy is lost

if you want readers---- who take cabs-- to believe that it makes sense to find it enjoyable to take in--the same scenery --15 times while paying for it

then you are truly the fool i always knew you were
JACE

Bethesda, MD

#23 Sep 20, 2013
corr

Gareth there reaches a point where you realize as you pass the hotel for the 15 time WHILE THE METER IS RUNNING that your boy is lost

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#24 Sep 20, 2013
Ex-JW wrote:
<quoted text>
In other words 2+2 = 3, if I'm told 2+2 = 5 then that's what ithe "Christian Con aka 8 men" tell me, and I belief it.
That's not even close to an analogy.

If I was ever told 2 + 2 != 4, then I would be in the wrong religion.

Not everything in the Bible is that clear cut however. The bottom line is you should respect the scriptures more than your own sense of self importance. The scriptures tell us that Jesus is leading the whole congregation towards ONE truth. He is not leading each individual to a different "truth".
JACE

Bethesda, MD

#25 Sep 20, 2013
Ex-JW wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL
He is hedging his bets as the obvious turmoil that resulted from the many changed doctrines in the July 15th Watchtower and speculation of a lot more to come, has him stymied ! He is waiting on Mother church .....OCTOMOM
ONE should not have to hedge his bets on TEACHINGS OF GOD, but in the case of jw he might want to consider doing so due to the wt writers colorful record
JACE

Bethesda, MD

#26 Sep 20, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
That's not even close to an analogy.
If I was ever told 2 + 2 != 4, then I would be in the wrong religion.
Not everything in the Bible is that clear cut however. The bottom line is you should respect the scriptures more than your own sense of self importance. The scriptures tell us that Jesus is leading the whole congregation towards ONE truth. He is not leading each individual to a different "truth".
"Not everything in the Bible is that clear cut however"

Excellent point, but here is your problem, you teach your dogmas as if it is- when in fact over and over they are merely SURMISES, OPINION AND SPEICUALATION

you condemn folks who disagree with you as if it

you dog other religions as if it is

and you call down death from God as if it is
and why many times simply cause they don't agree with what EVEN YOU ADMIT OFTENTIMES FALLS INTO the classification of

"Not everything in the Bible is that clear cut however"

yes the wt is dogmatic even when they are CLUELESS

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#27 Sep 20, 2013
JACE wrote:
<quoted text>
I love this guy note:
I do that because my views can be wrong as can those of the Christian Congregation.
######
"those of the Christian Congregation"
Gareth please stop it man, why do you make a fool out of yourself all the time
there is no such thing as THE CONGO VIEW,
There is the WT Editorial staff's view and that is parroted by the rest of jw, if they were to change views 3 times in 2 weeks, the rank and file would change
not because its THEIR VIEW, BUT cause they are parroted the wt writers
See Gareth when you talk to NONJW they fully understand that its really JUST THE WT WRITERS VIEW, the poor jw are merely just repeating what they have been told
so please stop using that silly phraseology as if the little old black sister in Tenn came up with this VIEW
AS the old friends use to tell me when I went back home from bethel
"Bro Jace works where the books are printed"
and that may friend is the bottomline for jw
when the writers change their wrong views to a NEW WRONG VIEW, jw do the same
Actually even the Governing Body are bound by the Congregation View. By that I mean the whole body of prayerful Bible study and research conducted by the Faithful Slave over the last 100 years.

They can't just rearrange that willy-nilly as they see fit. They can only change small pieces at a time and only when there is 2/3 agreement among them.

You see the Congregation View is actually bigger than ALL of us. It is the product of many years of Jesus Christ acting as a REFINER and CLEANSER over our imperfect reasonings into the scriptures, correcting us and encouraging us.

That is why our understanding of scripture gets better and better and more harmonious over time.
Ex-JW

Saint Augustine, FL

#28 Sep 20, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
That's not even close to an analogy.
If I was ever told 2 + 2 != 4, then I would be in the wrong religion.
Not everything in the Bible is that clear cut however. The bottom line is you should respect the scriptures more than your own sense of self importance. The scriptures tell us that Jesus is leading the whole congregation towards ONE truth. He is not leading each individual to a different "truth".
****The scriptures tell us that Jesus is leading the whole congregation towards ONE truth. He is not leading each individual to a different******

Correct, Jesus has been leading and instructing the congregation ALWAYS..I WILL BE WITH YOU ALWAYS !!!!

33 Ad
70 AD
100 AD
200 AD
500 AD
1000 AD
1500 AD
2000 AD
2014 AD

The WHEAT among the weeds did just fine in all these time periods, they MATURED, so the ONE TRUTH has always been with them aka HIMSELF !!!!, He did not need a pope, clergy, or GB to take his position !!!!!!
Gifts were given among men and women, but NOT his place of headship !!!!!! Ephesians 4
JACE

Bethesda, MD

#29 Sep 20, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually even the Governing Body are bound by the Congregation View. By that I mean the whole body of prayerful Bible study and research conducted by the Faithful Slave over the last 100 years.
They can't just rearrange that willy-nilly as they see fit. They can only change small pieces at a time and only when there is 2/3 agreement among them.
dude you are talking in circles

The wt editorial staff of writers determine what the VIEW WILL BE

7mill just accept it

dude you follow journalistic who write for a religious genre publications
Ex-JW

Saint Augustine, FL

#30 Sep 20, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually even the Governing Body are bound by the Congregation View. By that I mean the whole body of prayerful Bible study and research conducted by the Faithful Slave over the last 100 years.
They can't just rearrange that willy-nilly as they see fit. They can only change small pieces at a time and only when there is 2/3 agreement among them.
You see the Congregation View is actually bigger than ALL of us. It is the product of many years of Jesus Christ acting as a REFINER and CLEANSER over our imperfect reasonings into the scriptures, correcting us and encouraging us.
That is why our understanding of scripture gets better and better and more harmonious over time.
****Actually even the Governing Body are bound by the Congregation View.****

That is factual incorrect at best and a lie at worse.

The WBTS presidents NEVER consulted the body of anointed.
The old GB NEVER consulted the body of anointed.
The CURRENT GB has disclosed in the July 15 th Watchtower, they DO NOT consult with any anointed, in fact they demote them, and anyone who think they are anointed they challenge and discredit their mental abilities !!!!!!

Who are you kidding ? yourself maybe !

“All the best to you, in life!”

Since: Oct 07

Fort Lauderdale, FL

#31 Sep 20, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
I come here to promote the views of the Christian congregation.
Are you here stating that you equate the Governing Body with the Christian congregation, or do you assert that the views of your religion arise from within Jehovah's Witnesses in other ways, as well?
Aneirin wrote:
I accept and believe that the Christian congregation could be wrong about a number of things.
Is the literal number explanation of the 144,000 from Revelation, specifically, one of the things you accept and believe that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses could be wrong about?
Aneirin wrote:
But regardless if they are or not, their current beliefs harmonize with the scriptures.
Are you suggesting that the inspired word of Almighty God can harmonize with erroneous teachings?
Aneirin wrote:
Regarding the 144,000 the scriptural evidence presented is compelling and I believe the number to be literal BASED UPON the evidence presented THUS FAR.
The entire Bible is already available, is it not? What other Scriptural evidence could possibly be presented than what the Bible already contains?

“All the best to you, in life!”

Since: Oct 07

Fort Lauderdale, FL

#32 Sep 20, 2013
Worship God (2002)

Identifying the Visible Part [of Jehovah's Organization]

2 For 1,545 years the nation of Israel was the congregation of God.(Acts 7:38) But Israel failed to keep God’s laws and rejected his own Son. As a result, Jehovah rejected that congregation and cast it off. Jesus told the Jews:“Look! Your house is abandoned to you.”(Matthew 23:38) God then brought into existence a new congregation, with which he made a new covenant. This congregation was to be made up of 144,000 individuals chosen by God to be united with his Son in heaven.—Revelation 14:1-4.

3 The first ones of that new congregation were anointed with Jehovah’s holy spirit at Pentecost 33 C.E. Concerning that remarkable event, we read:“Now while the day of the festival of Pentecost was in progress they were all together at the same place, and suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting. And tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed about, and one sat upon each one of them, and they all became filled with holy spirit.”(Acts 2:1-4) Thus God’s spirit gave clear evidence that this was now the body of people that God would use to accomplish his purpose under the direction of Jesus Christ in heaven.

4 Today, only a remnant of the 144,000 are on earth. But in fulfillment of Bible prophecy,“a great crowd” of “other sheep,” millions of them, have been brought into association with the anointed remnant. Jesus, the Fine Shepherd, has merged these other sheep with the remnant so that they form just one flock under him as their one Shepherd.(Revelation 7:9; John 10:11, 16) These all make up one united congregation, Jehovah’s visible organization.

For the forum's consideration:
Aneirin wrote:
I don't pretend to be infallible in my assessment and neither do the WT publications.
I agree with Aneirin about this.

But the Governing Body does expect complete confidence in their explanation of things, having published the perspective that the only mature Christians in existence have complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed through the faithful and discreet slave [which we now know to have been the Governing Body all along, even though they didn't know it].

Any entity that expects complete confidence in their teachings expects to be treated and regarded as infallible whether or not they are claiming to be infallible.

If the teaching regarding the 144,000 may be wrong, then Jehovah's Witnesses may have been teaching a false doctrine to the world regarding the CHRISTIAN HOPE that first century Christians taught to the world.

It is a core doctrine of Christianity that there is ONE Christian hope.

It is a core doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses that there WAS one Christian hope for all first century Christians, and TWO Christian hopes for all Christians since 1932.

This doctrine regarding the literal nature of the number 144,000 has been central to the development of the religious authority among Jehovah's Witnesses from 1932 until now, and continues to be.

Not only that, the publication have for decades now made perfectly clear that recognizing the REMNANT of that number, found only among Jehovah's Witnesses, as the brothers of Christ is absolutely essential for salvation.

This is certainly a core doctrine of the religion. It is one of the things the religion has explicit questions regarding which someone needs to accept prior to being baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Ex-JW

Saint Augustine, FL

#33 Sep 20, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
That's not even close to an analogy.
If I was ever told 2 + 2 != 4, then I would be in the wrong religion.
Not everything in the Bible is that clear cut however. The bottom line is you should respect the scriptures more than your own sense of self importance. The scriptures tell us that Jesus is leading the whole congregation towards ONE truth. He is not leading each individual to a different "truth".
The WBTS's revolving "TRUTH" is CONFORMITY to ANY current printed understanding. This is consistant with an Orwellian dictatorship world. 2+2 =5

Christian "TRUTH" is a PERSON and ALL CONSISTANT TRUTH is embodied in HIM. This TRUTH is a MAINLY a quality of life (Christ's Life) that overcomes Satan, Sin and death NOW !
It's Christ's Spirit and hence we have as expressed in 1 John 4 ...THE SPIRT OF TRUTH ...NOT a catechism of changing beliefs !!!!!!

That "SPIRT OF TRUTH" is defined as the nature of who Jesus Christ is, The ETERNAL LIFE IN FLESH !!!!
1 John 5:9-13 those who deny this and deny this life for ALL who are led to it are called liars by Jehovah !
jace

Clinton, MD

#34 Sep 20, 2013
Ex-JW wrote:
<quoted text>****Actually even the Governing Body are bound by the Congregation View.****

That is factual incorrect at best and a lie at worse.

The WBTS presidents NEVER consulted the body of anointed.
The old GB NEVER consulted the body of anointed.
The CURRENT GB has disclosed in the July 15 th Watchtower, they DO NOT consult with any anointed, in fact they demote them, and anyone who think they are anointed they challenge and discredit their mental abilities !!!!!!

Who are you kidding ? yourself maybe !
Bingo

The more rope the more he hangs himself
jace

Clinton, MD

#35 Sep 20, 2013
AuldSoul1 wrote:
<quoted text>Are you here stating that you equate the Governing Body with the Christian congregation, or do you assert that the views of your religion arise from within Jehovah's Witnesses in other ways, as well?

Aneirin wrote, "I accept and believe that the Christian congregation could be wrong about a number of things."

Is the literal number explanation of the 144,000 from Revelation, specifically, one of the things you accept and believe that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses could be wrong about?

Aneirin wrote, "But regardless if they are or not, their current beliefs harmonize with the scriptures."

Are you suggesting that the inspired word of Almighty God can harmonize with erroneous teachings?

Aneirin wrote, "Regarding the 144,000 the scriptural evidence presented is compelling and I believe the number to be literal BASED UPON the evidence presented THUS FAR."

The entire Bible is already available, is it not? What other Scriptural evidence could possibly be presented than what the Bible already contains?
Stop it!!!!!!!

Play fair now. Our boy is trying his best to defend the wt writers and you know it ain't easy

Lol

“All the best to you, in life!”

Since: Oct 07

Fort Lauderdale, FL

#36 Sep 24, 2013
Silence.

Small wonder.

I do not wonder why.

“All the best to you, in life!”

Since: Oct 07

Fort Lauderdale, FL

#37 Sep 24, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
Let's face it it would not change anything if it turned out to be non literal.
Let's face it, when you say "turned out to be non literal" you mean if the Governing Body DECIDES FOR YOU that it is non literal.

This is very important Gareth, because it is THE MAIN THING that makes your religion a cult, you are required to accept the doctrines your religion teaches as the truth no matter what your religion teaches, and the doctrines your religion teaches come FROM THE GOVERNING BODY, not from the Bible.

You are correct. Even if CORE DOCTRINES change in your religion, it would not change anything, because your religion isn't really teaching ONLY the truth and your religion isn't really being refined to any preset standard of purity.

Your religion's "changes" in doctrine don't really change anything.

I agree 100% with you there.

Your religion follows the leading of mere flesh, religiously.

Men's OPINIONS change, then doctrine changes, and there is proof that this is the actual fact of how your religion's doctrines change throughout your religion's rather brief history.

The distinction between your religion and other religions on that point is the degree of confidence each member is required to have in the current teachings of the cult leadership.

Complete confidence.

Anything shy of that is disloyalty.

But they are JUST MEN.

They are men who refused to wait on Jehovah to reveal THE TRUTH to them; they are men who ran ahead with teaching best guesses and opinions of men as truth, men who were not content with the simple good news of the Bible and took upon themselves the authority to CHANGE it into something else, something NEW, something that literally REPLACED the good news that Paul taught to the Galatians.—Galatians 1:6-9

No first century Christian EVER ONCE taught the good news that is exclusively shared with the world by Jehovah's Witnesses.

You KNOW that is true, don't you Aneirin?

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#38 Sep 24, 2013
AuldSoul1 wrote:
Are you suggesting that the inspired word of Almighty God can harmonize with erroneous teachings?
Many passages on their own are somewhat ambiguous. So you could provide a number of explanations that all fit (harmonize with) the text.

But they can not all be true can they? No.

But the true explanation will be the one that ALSO harmonizes with ALL OTHER scriptures.
AuldSoul1 wrote:
The entire Bible is already available, is it not? What other Scriptural evidence could possibly be presented than what the Bible already contains?
Being that the Bible is such an enormous collections of books it can take years and years of study to uncover scriptures that have a bearing on other scriptures. Once such connections are discovered those scriptures could expose a lack of complete harmony that was previously not apparent.

Harmonizing all the scriptures that can be taken different ways is an enormous task only possible with God's help.

*** Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, close up these words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall roam here and there, and knowledge shall increase."

*** Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, cleansed and refined; but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

“All the best to you, in life!”

Since: Oct 07

Fort Lauderdale, FL

#39 Sep 24, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
So you could provide a number of explanations that all fit (harmonize with) the text.
Of a single passage?

True.
Aneirin wrote:
But they can not all be true can they? No.
Correct.

But they CAN all be false.

How can we know which is true?

The interpretation GOD gives is the correct one.—Genesis 40:8

Any INCORRECT interpretations did not come from God, they came from some other source.—1 John 4:1
Aneirin wrote:
But the true explanation will be the one that ALSO harmonizes with ALL OTHER scriptures.
That TOTALLY depends on whether the interpretation of the other Scriptures came from God or from men.
Aneirin wrote:
Harmonizing all the scriptures that can be taken different ways is an enormous task only possible with God's help.
CORRECT!

However, PRETENDING to harmonize all the Scriptures that can be taken different ways is an enormous task that is possible with only a few, or even with only ONE, human.

How could one possibly be able to determine whether the source of a given specific attempt at harmonization of all the Scriptures is being accomplished WITH God's help or WITHOUT God's help?

The interpretation GOD gives is the correct one.—Genesis 40:8

Any INCORRECT interpretations did not come from God, they came from some other source.—1 John 4:1

But don't take my word for it.

Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence
February, 1881, page 3

"If we are following man, undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one, two or six years ago, would be regarded as darkness now. But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from God must be like its author - A new view of truth can never contradict a former truth.'New light' never extinguishes older 'light' but adds to it."

That's how you know, Aneirin.

Russell was correct about that.

Perfectly correct.

Your religion has abandoned that SCRIPTURALLY SOUND teaching of Russell for Satanic lies.

“All the best to you, in life!”

Since: Oct 07

Fort Lauderdale, FL

#40 Sep 24, 2013
Sadly, Aneirin has allowed a cult to convince him that refinement of PEOPLE is refinement of DOCTRINE.

He has likewise allowed the same cult to convince him that the LIFE COURSE (the path) of the righteous one is RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE, and that the path of such a one getting brighter is religious doctrine becoming clearer, even though Proverbs 18 doesn't mention religion, AT ALL, organized or otherwise, but refers to individual life choices.

Sadly, Aneirin has not chosen to respond to the issues raised in this thread, but has chosen to raise the specter of comparative analysis of various human attempts to harmonize Scripture.

There have been thousands upon thousands of attempts.

Sadly, he refuses to see that the attempt made by the faithless and indiscreet Governor class of Jehovah's Witnesses is JUST ANOTHER human attempt, proven to have been without God's guidance by the obvious lack of the very thing the religion touts itself as being a SOURCE of: THE TRUTH.

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