Thirdwitness: Literally 144,000 humans?

Thirdwitness: Literally 144,000 humans?

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“All the best to you, in life!”

Since: Oct 07

Fort Lauderdale, FL

#1 Sep 20, 2013
Thirdwitness, for the sake of posterity, are you willing to state for the record that the following is a core doctrine of your religion?

DOCTRINE: The number 144,000 found in the Bible at Revelation 7:4-8 and 14:1-4 is a number that refers, literally and exclusively, to 144,000 individual humans Spirit-adopted into God's personal family as brothers of Jesus.

Is that a core doctrine of your religion, i.e. is that a doctrine that is necessary to true Christianity?

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#2 Sep 20, 2013
Let's face it it would not change anything if it turned out to be non literal.

They teach it is a literal number because that's what the evidence suggests.

*** re chap. 19 p. 118 par. 14 Sealing the Israel of God ***

14 Interestingly, Charles T. Russell recognized the 144,000 to be a literal number of individuals making up a spiritual Israel. In The New Creation, Volume VI of his Studies in the Scriptures, published in 1904, he wrote:“We have every reason to believe that the definite, fixed number of the elect [chosen anointed ones] is that several times stated in Revelation (7:4; 14:1); namely, 144,000 ‘redeemed from amongst men.’” In Light, Book One, published in 1930 by the Bible Students, it was likewise stated:“The 144,000 members of the body of Christ are thus in the assembly shown as selected and anointed, or sealed.” Jehovah’s Witnesses have consistently held to the view that literally 144,000 anointed Christians make up spiritual Israel.

*** w04 9/1 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***

Note, however, the contrast that John draws between verses 4 and 9 of Revelation chapter 7. He states that the first group,“those who were sealed,” has a definite number. However, the second group,“a great crowd,” is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally.

...

The conclusion that the number 144,000 is literal and refers to a limited number of individuals, a relatively small group when compared with the “great crowd,” also harmonizes with other Bible passages. For instance, later in the vision that the apostle John receives, the 144,000 are described as those who “were bought from among mankind as firstfruits.”(Revelation 14:1, 4) The expression “firstfruits” refers to a small representative selection. Also, while Jesus was on earth, he spoke about those who will rule with him in his heavenly Kingdom and called them a “little flock.”(Luke 12:32; 22:29) Indeed, those from among mankind who will rule in heaven are few in comparison with those of mankind who will inhabit the coming Paradise earth.

***

But it would hardly be earth-crushing to get into the new system and discover that there were more or fewer ruling in heaven.
Ex-JW

Saint Augustine, FL

#3 Sep 20, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
Let's face it it would not change anything if it turned out to be non literal.
They teach it is a literal number because that's what the evidence suggests.
*** re chap. 19 p. 118 par. 14 Sealing the Israel of God ***
14 Interestingly, Charles T. Russell recognized the 144,000 to be a literal number of individuals making up a spiritual Israel. In The New Creation, Volume VI of his Studies in the Scriptures, published in 1904, he wrote:“We have every reason to believe that the definite, fixed number of the elect [chosen anointed ones] is that several times stated in Revelation (7:4; 14:1); namely, 144,000 ‘redeemed from amongst men.’” In Light, Book One, published in 1930 by the Bible Students, it was likewise stated:“The 144,000 members of the body of Christ are thus in the assembly shown as selected and anointed, or sealed.” Jehovah’s Witnesses have consistently held to the view that literally 144,000 anointed Christians make up spiritual Israel.
*** w04 9/1 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***
Note, however, the contrast that John draws between verses 4 and 9 of Revelation chapter 7. He states that the first group,“those who were sealed,” has a definite number. However, the second group,“a great crowd,” is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally.
...
The conclusion that the number 144,000 is literal and refers to a limited number of individuals, a relatively small group when compared with the “great crowd,” also harmonizes with other Bible passages. For instance, later in the vision that the apostle John receives, the 144,000 are described as those who “were bought from among mankind as firstfruits.”(Revelation 14:1, 4) The expression “firstfruits” refers to a small representative selection. Also, while Jesus was on earth, he spoke about those who will rule with him in his heavenly Kingdom and called them a “little flock.”(Luke 12:32; 22:29) Indeed, those from among mankind who will rule in heaven are few in comparison with those of mankind who will inhabit the coming Paradise earth.
***
But it would hardly be earth-crushing to get into the new system and discover that there were more or fewer ruling in heaven.
1 Corinthians 10:
10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

The Bible explains itself.

The anti-type fleshly Israel shows:
One High priest Moses/.........current Jesus
Some priests sons of Aaron /...current teachers, evangelists, prophets etc
12 "lay" tribes ....current the WORLD of mankind John 3:16, 1 John 2:2
Alien residence

A kingdom of Kings and Priests and a HOLY NATION.

Of course there was/are few priests, Ephesians 4 shows we don't all have the same position,(All are NOT teachers) HOWEVER WE ARE ALL IN CHRIST AND HIM IN US as follows:

2 They were ALL baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They ALL ate the same spiritual food 4 and ALL drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was CHRIST !

“All the best to you, in life!”

Since: Oct 07

Fort Lauderdale, FL

#4 Sep 20, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
Let's face it it would not change anything if it turned out to be non literal.
I want to understand your statement. It seems like you allow for the possibility that the number might not be literal.

Do you mean to allow that the number 144,000 recorded in the Bible at Revelation 7:4-8 and at Revelation 14:1-4 might NOT refer literally to 144,000 individuals?

I want to clarify one bit at a time, if you don't mind. I do not want readers to get confused about the admission you are making regarding the teachings of your religion.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#5 Sep 20, 2013
AuldSoul1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I want to understand your statement. It seems like you allow for the possibility that the number might not be literal.
Do you mean to allow that the number 144,000 recorded in the Bible at Revelation 7:4-8 and at Revelation 14:1-4 might NOT refer literally to 144,000 individuals?
I want to clarify one bit at a time, if you don't mind. I do not want readers to get confused about the admission you are making regarding the teachings of your religion.
I think the logic presented by the WT publications is very good, but I don't pretend to be infallible in my assessment and neither do the WT publications.
Ex-JW

Saint Augustine, FL

#6 Sep 20, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
I think the logic presented by the WT publications is very good, but I don't pretend to be infallible in my assessment and neither do the WT publications.
Now this would be an honest and acceptable statement coming from any denomination, however it's NOT ccoming from any denomination among many, its comfort those who claim that are the ONLY church/organisation that God is using today.

Subsequently, they judge every other denomination as false and satanic and called anyone who leaves apostate and mentally diseased.... and slander the brethern of Jesus....

The WBTS are like the group of legalist's in Paul's day when he called them out as follows:

First Corinthians 4:8, "You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us."

And James

James 4:
11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister[d] or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?
Ex-JW

Saint Augustine, FL

#7 Sep 20, 2013
Correct ...

Now this would be an honest and acceptable statement coming from any denomination, however it's NOT coming from any denomination among many, its COMING FROM those who claim that are the ONLY church/organisation that God is using today.

“All the best to you, in life!”

Since: Oct 07

Fort Lauderdale, FL

#8 Sep 20, 2013
I apologize for pressing the point, Aneirin, but really I would like to know in order to establish the validity for a followup question:

Do you mean to allow that the number 144,000 recorded in the Bible at Revelation 7:4-8 and at Revelation 14:1-4 might NOT refer literally to 144,000 individuals?
Ex-JW

Saint Augustine, FL

#9 Sep 20, 2013
AuldSoul1 wrote:
I apologize for pressing the point, Aneirin, but really I would like to know in order to establish the validity for a followup question:
Do you mean to allow that the number 144,000 recorded in the Bible at Revelation 7:4-8 and at Revelation 14:1-4 might NOT refer literally to 144,000 individuals?
LOL
He is hedging his bets as the obvious turmoil that resulted from the many changed doctrines in the July 15th Watchtower and speculation of a lot more to come, has him stymied ! He is waiting on Mother church .....OCTOMOM

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#10 Sep 20, 2013
AuldSoul1 wrote:
I apologize for pressing the point, Aneirin, but really I would like to know in order to establish the validity for a followup question:
Do you mean to allow that the number 144,000 recorded in the Bible at Revelation 7:4-8 and at Revelation 14:1-4 might NOT refer literally to 144,000 individuals?
I honestly don't think I could have presented my position more clearly.

“All the best to you, in life!”

Since: Oct 07

Fort Lauderdale, FL

#11 Sep 20, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
I honestly don't think I could have presented my position more clearly.
I understand that you believe they have presented a compelling case for their OPINION about the matter, but I am asking whether you accept that their OPINION about the matter might actually be incorrect.

You didn't really answer that, directly. You stated that neither you nor they claim otherwise, which is not the same thing, at all, as saying that you do accept that their opinion about the matter might actually be incorrect.

I have now explained that you can, actually, answer the question I have asked more clearly, since I did not really ask or prompt for any presentation of your position on their opinion beyond whether you allow that they might be wrong.

Whether or not you believe it is LIKELY that they are wrong, MIGHT they be wrong about whether the number 144,000 refers to the literal limit and literal fullest extent of the number of those who will called to heavenly life from among humans (plus one for Jesus)?
JACE

Bethesda, MD

#12 Sep 20, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
Let's face it it would not change anything if it turned out to be non literal..
A very Powerful statement and he is correct

in the make believe world of jw it matters not what they are told by the WT Editorial staff

at NO POINT will the jw stop and say, something is wrong

what the wt writers have done which I must admit is really cool is
they have built into their theology that errors made BY US DO NOT MATTER'

NOW of course if you are a nonjw errors are crucial in terms of teaching what the bible says or teaching what mean say

at NO POINT does the jw say the cab driver is wrong despite having passed the same hotel 23 times on the way TO THE AIRPORT
Ex-JW

Saint Augustine, FL

#13 Sep 20, 2013
JACE wrote:
<quoted text>
A very Powerful statement and he is correct
in the make believe world of jw it matters not what they are told by the WT Editorial staff
at NO POINT will the jw stop and say, something is wrong
what the wt writers have done which I must admit is really cool is
they have built into their theology that errors made BY US DO NOT MATTER'
NOW of course if you are a nonjw errors are crucial in terms of teaching what the bible says or teaching what mean say
at NO POINT does the jw say the cab driver is wrong despite having passed the same hotel 23 times on the way TO THE AIRPORT
Come on Jace, give the guy a break, you know he is trained to respond from the shoulders down, not up !:)

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#14 Sep 20, 2013
AuldSoul1 wrote:
I understand that you believe they have presented a compelling case for their OPINION about the matter, but I am asking whether you accept that their OPINION about the matter might actually be incorrect.
I do not come here to promote my personal opinions.

I come here to promote the views of the Christian congregation. I accept and believe that the Christian congregation could be wrong about a number of things. But regardless if they are or not, their current beliefs harmonize with the scriptures.

Regarding the 144,000 the scriptural evidence presented is compelling and I believe the number to be literal BASED UPON the evidence presented THUS FAR.

Would it be devastating to me if the Congregation View changed on this matter? Not at all, its hardly very important to anything much. But as long as the Congregation View harmonizes with the scriptures then I respect it above and beyond my own. I do that because my views can be wrong as can those of the Christian Congregation. However I recognise that the views of the Christian Congregation "as a whole" have ALWAYS been superior to my own "as a whole" when examined in detail. They have continually taught me a view of scripture that harmonizes with the WHOLE Bible far more than my research on its own would have lead me to discover.

Moreover I recognize that Jesus is leading the Whole Congregation into truth and that he is NOT leading each individual to a different truth.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#15 Sep 20, 2013
JACE wrote:
<quoted text>
A very Powerful statement and he is correct
in the make believe world of jw it matters not what they are told by the WT Editorial staff
at NO POINT will the jw stop and say, something is wrong
what the wt writers have done which I must admit is really cool is
they have built into their theology that errors made BY US DO NOT MATTER'
NOW of course if you are a nonjw errors are crucial in terms of teaching what the bible says or teaching what mean say
at NO POINT does the jw say the cab driver is wrong despite having passed the same hotel 23 times on the way TO THE AIRPORT
Jace's problem is that every different cab driver will take him to a different place and NONE of them will be the right destination.

At least MY cab driver will get to the correct destination ON TIME even if it takes in some scenery on the way.
JACE

Bethesda, MD

#16 Sep 20, 2013
Ex-JW wrote:
Correct ...
Now this would be an honest and acceptable statement coming from any denomination, however it's NOT coming from any denomination among many, its COMING FROM those who claim that are the ONLY church/organisation that God is using today.
in other words as one translation puts it

Ephesians 4:14 (EXB)| In Context | Whole Chapter

14

Then we will no longer be ·babies [children]. We will not be tossed about like a ship that the waves carry one way and then another.

We will not be ·influenced by every new teaching [L&#8239;carried along by every wind of (false) teaching] we hear from people who are trying to ·fool [trick] us.

They ·make plans [scheme] and try any kind of trick to fool people into following ·the wrong path [error; false teaching].
Ex-JW

Saint Augustine, FL

#17 Sep 20, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
I do not come here to promote my personal opinions.
I come here to promote the views of the Christian congregation. I accept and believe that the Christian congregation could be wrong about a number of things. But regardless if they are or not, their current beliefs harmonize with the scriptures.
Regarding the 144,000 the scriptural evidence presented is compelling and I believe the number to be literal BASED UPON the evidence presented THUS FAR.
Would it be devastating to me if the Congregation View changed on this matter? Not at all, its hardly very important to anything much. But as long as the Congregation View harmonizes with the scriptures then I respect it above and beyond my own. I do that because my views can be wrong as can those of the Christian Congregation. However I recognise that the views of the Christian Congregation "as a whole" have ALWAYS been superior to my own "as a whole" when examined in detail. They have continually taught me a view of scripture that harmonizes with the WHOLE Bible far more than my research on its own would have lead me to discover.
Moreover I recognize that Jesus is leading the Whole Congregation into truth and that he is NOT leading each individual to a different truth.
In other words 2+2 = 3, if I'm told 2+2 = 5 then that's what ithe "Christian Con aka 8 men" tell me, and I belief it.

Hitlers Germany had the same mentally, is cult an appropriate word to use here ?????
JACE

Bethesda, MD

#18 Sep 20, 2013
Ex-JW wrote:
<quoted text>
Come on Jace, give the guy a break, you know he is trained to respond from the shoulders down, not up !:)
I apologize for at least he was honest in telling us that some of his dogmas are subject to be built on sand and with the next issue of the wt he could be saying:
"Now the (GB) pope and our (Elder)priests are telling us this is not the way to believe any more, but we are to believe ‘new things.’ How do I know the ‘new things’ will be the truth in five years?”
g70 4/22 8-10 Changes That Disturb People ***
Changes That Disturb People
Remnant143999

Albuquerque, NM

#19 Sep 20, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
I think the logic presented by the WT publications is very good, but I don't pretend to be infallible in my assessment and neither do the WT publications.
Then why do you reject being a bappised jw? I am Remnant 143999 still room for one more, can you prove me wrong? Do you have any pamphlets regarding what happens to wanna be jws that refuse baptism?
SusieB

Richland, WA

#20 Sep 20, 2013
Aneirin wrote:
Let's face it it would not change anything if it turned out to be non literal.
They teach it is a literal number because that's what the evidence suggests.

But it would hardly be earth-crushing to get into the new system and discover that there were more or fewer ruling in heaven.
(John 5:21-24) "For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life."

Hmmm...seems your evil and vile slave are teaching untruths!
It appears here that Jesus isn't going to judge anyone who puts faith in Him. So entering into the new system according to Jesus truth isn't what the JW's teach as truth is it???

No it wouldn't be "earth crushing" but it could be spiritually crushing now couldn't it Gareth? Especially after having been forced to accept that teaching as truth and hanging onto it???
Think of all those 'apostate rebels' who adamantly denied that teaching and were kicked out and shunned for years only to find out that what was force fed as "truth" was in actuality not "truth" at all? Lol...Jw's are so brainwashed! GULP, GULP, GULP! Hasn't anything gotten stuck in your throat yet?

(John 11:25-26) "Jesus said to her,“I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me will live, even though they die; 26 and those who live and believe in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Why do your evil and vile leaders force untruths and fear into the hearts and minds of their followers? It's ungodly!
Turn away from false prophets and turn to LIFE, JESUS is LIFE!

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