War of words breaks out among Jehovah...

War of words breaks out among Jehovah's Witnesses

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BUDGIE

UK

#1 Nov 23, 2012
The official magazine for Jehovah's Witnesses has described those who leave the church as "mentally diseased", prompting an outcry from former members and insiders concerned about the shunning of those who question official doctrine.

An article published in July's edition of The Watchtower warns followers to stay clear of "false teachers" who are condemned as being "mentally diseased" apostates who should be avoided at all costs. "Suppose that a doctor told you to avoid contact with someone who is infected with a contagious, deadly disease," the article reads. "You would know what the doctor means, and you would strictly heed his warning. Well, apostates are 'mentally diseased', and they seek to infect others with their disloyal teachings."

A copy of the magazine, distributed by Jehovah's Witnesses around the world, was given to The Independent by a current member of the church who has become unhappy with official teaching but is afraid to leave for fear of losing his family.

"Many like me remain associated with the Witnesses out of fear of being uncovered as an 'apostate' and ousted, not just from the organisation, but from their own friends and families," said the man, who would only give the name John. "I find I am now branded as 'mentally diseased'– giving any who discover my true beliefs free licence to treat me with disdain."

As a faith with a centralised leadership, many forms of discipline are used to counter criticism of doctrine, with punishments ranging from restriction of official duties to excommunication. Those who have been thrown out of the church often find themselves ostracised by fellow believers.

A growing number of former and current Witnesses have begun to argue that the church's use of the word "mentally diseased" to describe defectors could be in breach of Britain's religious hatred laws. A group of former Witnesses in Portsmouth have now made an official complaint to Hampshire Police about the article and police are currently investigating.

Angus Robertson, a former Witness "elder" from Hampshire, who was present at the meeting with police officers, said: "The way scripture is being used to bully people must be challenged. If a religion was preaching that blacks or gays were mentally diseased there would understandable outrage."

Article taken from the INDEPENDENT.
Back to Florida I go

Antigo, WI

#2 Nov 23, 2012
How sad that this Cult has hurt sooo many families..

“A VERY BAD MAN”

Since: Dec 06

Republic of Elbonia

#3 Nov 23, 2012
Interesting that the first response to this thread is an individual who personifies the term, "mentally diseased."

Oh, by the way, there is already a thread for this:

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

You're aware, I hope, that the little temper tantrum your buddies Full-Pound Angus [aka Cantleave] and John Cedars threw with the police never went anywhere, right?

“the truth will set you free...”

Since: Nov 10

Spring, TX

#5 Nov 23, 2012
Some former members are ok. Quite a few others wore me down. I often think of them as one big mold of cheese.

“A VERY BAD MAN”

Since: Dec 06

Republic of Elbonia

#6 Nov 23, 2012
Dream-weaver wrote:
Some former members are ok. Quite a few others wore me down. I often think of them as one big mold of cheese.
Camembert? Double Gloucester?
TPMP

Brooklyn, NY

#7 Nov 23, 2012
Dream-weaver wrote:
Some former members are ok. Quite a few others wore me down. I often think of them as one big mold of cheese.
It runs the gamut

Some leave and never look back (a lot from my generation did that)

Then others like many here love to moan and complain. They are still stuck.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#8 Nov 23, 2012
BUDGIE wrote:
The official magazine for Jehovah's Witnesses has described those who leave the church as "mentally diseased",
That's an outright lie.

The article SPECIFICALLY STATED that it was NOT talking about just anyone who leaves.
BUDGIE wrote:
prompting an outcry from former members and insiders concerned about the shunning of those who question official doctrine.
An article published in July's edition of The Watchtower warns followers to stay clear of "false teachers" who are condemned as being "mentally diseased" apostates who should be avoided at all costs. "Suppose that a doctor told you to avoid contact with someone who is infected with a contagious, deadly disease," the article reads. "You would know what the doctor means, and you would strictly heed his warning. Well, apostates are 'mentally diseased', and they seek to infect others with their disloyal teachings."
A copy of the magazine, distributed by Jehovah's Witnesses around the world, was given to The Independent by a current member of the church who has become unhappy with official teaching but is afraid to leave for fear of losing his family.
"Many like me remain associated with the Witnesses out of fear of being uncovered as an 'apostate' and ousted, not just from the organisation, but from their own friends and families," said the man, who would only give the name John. "I find I am now branded as 'mentally diseased'– giving any who discover my true beliefs free licence to treat me with disdain."
As a faith with a centralised leadership, many forms of discipline are used to counter criticism of doctrine, with punishments ranging from restriction of official duties to excommunication. Those who have been thrown out of the church often find themselves ostracised by fellow believers.
A growing number of former and current Witnesses have begun to argue that the church's use of the word "mentally diseased" to describe defectors could be in breach of Britain's religious hatred laws. A group of former Witnesses in Portsmouth have now made an official complaint to Hampshire Police about the article and police are currently investigating.
Angus Robertson, a former Witness "elder" from Hampshire, who was present at the meeting with police officers, said: "The way scripture is being used to bully people must be challenged. If a religion was preaching that blacks or gays were mentally diseased there would understandable outrage."
Article taken from the INDEPENDENT.
This is a storm in a teacup. It is a CLASSIC case of anti-JW fanatics trying to imply that the WTS publications said much more than they actually said.

The truth is that it is the BIBLE that says that SOME people become "mentally diseased" in their ferver to attack those who remain in the Christian congregation.

And we see that the BIBLE is correct. This very post is an example of hos mentally OBSESSED these people are with attacking Jehovah's Witnesses.

These MENTALLY OBSESSIVE people constantly read Jehovah's Witnesses' publications looking for ways to cause a stir or to make controversy.

So "mentally diseased" aptly describes this highly vocal MINORITY of people who leave the Christian congregation.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#9 Nov 23, 2012
Its a known thing that if you talk to a mentally diseased person who is in denial about their mental disease they can go a bit crazy.

This article thoroughly proved that.

When it came out, all the mentally diseased people went totally crazy and proved exactly how mentally diseased they truly are.

The article does NOT say that all who leave Jehovah's Witnesses are "mentally diseased". This is the huge lie that all the mentally diseased people started propagating.

In fact that is part of their mental disease, their proclivity to spreading false information and telling lies.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#10 Nov 23, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
Its a known thing that if you talk to a mentally diseased person who is in denial about their mental disease they can go a bit crazy.
This article thoroughly proved that.
When it came out, all the mentally diseased people went totally crazy and proved exactly how mentally diseased they truly are.
The article does NOT say that all who leave Jehovah's Witnesses are "mentally diseased". This is the huge lie that all the mentally diseased people started propagating.
In fact that is part of their mental disease, their proclivity to spreading false information and telling lies.
So you are saying that mentally diseased people spread lies and false imformation? Please show me from the Bible where it says that you MUST be a JW to be saved, or is this false information?

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#11 Nov 23, 2012
The Real Karen wrote:
<quoted text>
So you are saying that mentally diseased people spread lies and false imformation? Please show me from the Bible where it says that you MUST be a JW to be saved, or is this false information?
The Bible says you must be a Christian to be saved.

Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians.

“Truth is where you find it”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#12 Nov 23, 2012
BUDGIE wrote:
The official magazine for Jehovah's Witnesses has described those who leave the church as "mentally diseased", prompting an outcry from former members and insiders concerned about the shunning of those who question official doctrine.
An article published in July's edition of The Watchtower warns followers to stay clear of "false teachers" who are condemned as being "mentally diseased" apostates who should be avoided at all costs. "Suppose that a doctor told you to avoid contact with someone who is infected with a contagious, deadly disease," the article reads. "You would know what the doctor means, and you would strictly heed his warning. Well, apostates are 'mentally diseased', and they seek to infect others with their disloyal teachings."
A copy of the magazine, distributed by Jehovah's Witnesses around the world, was given to The Independent by a current member of the church who has become unhappy with official teaching but is afraid to leave for fear of losing his family.
"Many like me remain associated with the Witnesses out of fear of being uncovered as an 'apostate' and ousted, not just from the organisation, but from their own friends and families," said the man, who would only give the name John. "I find I am now branded as 'mentally diseased'– giving any who discover my true beliefs free licence to treat me with disdain."
As a faith with a centralised leadership, many forms of discipline are used to counter criticism of doctrine, with punishments ranging from restriction of official duties to excommunication. Those who have been thrown out of the church often find themselves ostracised by fellow believers.
A growing number of former and current Witnesses have begun to argue that the church's use of the word "mentally diseased" to describe defectors could be in breach of Britain's religious hatred laws. A group of former Witnesses in Portsmouth have now made an official complaint to Hampshire Police about the article and police are currently investigating.
Angus Robertson, a former Witness "elder" from Hampshire, who was present at the meeting with police officers, said: "The way scripture is being used to bully people must be challenged. If a religion was preaching that blacks or gays were mentally diseased there would understandable outrage."
Article taken from the INDEPENDENT.
I just hope the news article accurately portrays the magazine article. It surely is hateful religious speech. Personally I don't see where it is a problem for them to evict anyone that doesn't want to abide by their rules. To defame them in the process for merely disagreeing with the wrong teachings, where the bible is concerned, should be legally actionable.

sidgi
Truth of Christ

Mesquite, NV

#13 Nov 23, 2012
It tells a great deal about the JW organization that they call people mentally diseased for teaching to obey the words of the bible instead of men's magazines.
Truth of Christ

Mesquite, NV

#14 Nov 23, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
The Bible says you must be a Christian to be saved.
Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians.
This is not possible.

By bible definition in Deut 18 the JW organization is a false prophet.

By bible definition in Gal 1 the JW religion is cursed.

So it is not possible that being a JW is a Christian.
BUDGIE

UK

#15 Nov 23, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
That's an outright lie.
The article SPECIFICALLY STATED that it was NOT talking about just anyone who leaves.
<quoted text>
This is a storm in a teacup. It is a CLASSIC case of anti-JW fanatics trying to imply that the WTS publications said much more than they actually said.
The truth is that it is the BIBLE that says that SOME people become "mentally diseased" in their ferver to attack those who remain in the Christian congregation.
And we see that the BIBLE is correct. This very post is an example of hos mentally OBSESSED these people are with attacking Jehovah's Witnesses.
These MENTALLY OBSESSIVE people constantly read Jehovah's Witnesses' publications looking for ways to cause a stir or to make controversy.
So "mentally diseased" aptly describes this highly vocal MINORITY of people who leave the Christian congregation.
Take it up with the Independent News.!
BUDGIE

UK

#16 Nov 23, 2012
FH Chandler wrote:
Interesting that the first response to this thread is an individual who personifies the term, "mentally diseased."
Oh, by the way, there is already a thread for this:
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
You're aware, I hope, that the little temper tantrum your buddies Full-Pound Angus [aka Cantleave] and John Cedars threw with the police never went anywhere, right?
Attacking the Person
This type of fallacy attempts
to disprove or discredit a perfectly valid
argument or statement by making an irrelevant
attack on the person presenting it.
But while personal attacks, subtle and not so subtle, may intimidate and persuade,
never do they disprove what has been said.

Abusive ad hominem (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting
or belittling one's opponents in order to attack their claims or invalidate their arguments,
This is a common logical fallacy. Argumentum ad hominem basically means that the argument
becomes directed towards the individual as opposed towards the crucial issues being discussed.
It is succinctly described as, attack the messenger not the message (hence – shoot the messenger).
It is often seen in both politics and pseudoscience. Its aim is to undermine the position of ones opponent,
by undermining the opponent personally (in a manner that is actually completely irrelevant to the debate).
The hope here is that if one can discredit the individual, this by default, discredits his / her argument.
But It does not.
It occurs whenever a person has given up attempting to persuade a person or an audience about the validity of their
position and is now resorting to mere personal attacks.
Back to Florida I go

Antigo, WI

#17 Nov 23, 2012
BUDGIE wrote:
<quoted text>Attacking the Person
This type of fallacy attempts
to disprove or discredit a perfectly valid
argument or statement by making an irrelevant
attack on the person presenting it.
But while personal attacks, subtle and not so subtle, may intimidate and persuade,
never do they disprove what has been said.
Abusive ad hominem (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting
or belittling one's opponents in order to attack their claims or invalidate their arguments,
This is a common logical fallacy. Argumentum ad hominem basically means that the argument
becomes directed towards the individual as opposed towards the crucial issues being discussed.
It is succinctly described as, attack the messenger not the message (hence – shoot the messenger).
It is often seen in both politics and pseudoscience. Its aim is to undermine the position of ones opponent,
by undermining the opponent personally (in a manner that is actually completely irrelevant to the debate).
The hope here is that if one can discredit the individual, this by default, discredits his / her argument.
But It does not.
It occurs whenever a person has given up attempting to persuade a person or an audience about the validity of their
position and is now resorting to mere personal attacks.
Thanx for the facts that seem to drive wack Jobs into insanity.

I too know of this all to well in my situation.

Many choose to use personal attacks as children, rather than debate like a adult , and adress real issues not personal information or attacks.

Thanx again for these facts..

“A VERY BAD MAN”

Since: Dec 06

Republic of Elbonia

#18 Nov 23, 2012
FUDGIE wrote:
...to disprove or discredit a perfectly valid argument...
The criticisms of your friends Angus "Cantleave" Robertson and the misinformation artist cowering behind the pseudonym "John Cedars" would first have to be, "perfectly valid," which they fall embarrassingly short of.

“A VERY BAD MAN”

Since: Dec 06

Republic of Elbonia

#19 Nov 23, 2012
Additionally, you failed to answer the question:

From:
[QUOTE who="I']You're aware, I hope, that the little temper tantrum your buddies Full-Pound Angus [aka Cantleave] and John Cedars threw with the police never went anywhere, right?[/QUOTE]

Would you care to discuss the abject failure of your friends to cause some huge stir - other than in online forums such as the cesspool JWN where they, and other like minded people are in the majority - or to cause some police department over in the UK to treat the distribution of that particular magazine as something approaching an actionable "crime?"

Because your friends' little temper tantrum was, beyond being a childish temper tantrum, just that: a FAILURE at stirring up appreciable antiJW bigotry [other than on JWN and similar forums, where it already existed], or at causing some secular authority to treat your Brooklyn Boogeymen as though correctly labeling the mentally diseased as mentally diseased made them "criminals."

“A VERY BAD MAN”

Since: Dec 06

Republic of Elbonia

#20 Nov 23, 2012
Bah! Formatting.

Additionally, you failed to answer the question:

From: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
I wrote:
You're aware, I hope, that the little temper tantrum your buddies Full-Pound Angus [aka Cantleave] and John Cedars threw with the police never went anywhere, right?
Would you care to discuss the abject failure of your friends to cause some huge stir - other than in online forums such as the cesspool JWN where they, and other like minded people are in the majority - or to cause some police department over in the UK to treat the distribution of that particular magazine as something approaching an actionable "crime?"

Because your friends' little temper tantrum was, beyond being a childish temper tantrum, just that: a FAILURE at stirring up appreciable antiJW bigotry [other than on JWN and similar forums, where it already existed], or at causing some secular authority to treat your Brooklyn Boogeymen as though correctly labeling the mentally diseased as mentally diseased made them "criminals."

“Family comes First”

Since: May 11

Location hidden

#21 Nov 23, 2012
BUDGIE wrote:
The official magazine for Jehovah's Witnesses has described those who leave the church as "mentally diseased", prompting an outcry from former members and insiders concerned about the shunning of those who question official doctrine.
An article published in July's edition of The Watchtower warns followers to stay clear of "false teachers" who are condemned as being "mentally diseased" apostates who should be avoided at all costs. "Suppose that a doctor told you to avoid contact with someone who is infected with a contagious, deadly disease," the article reads. "You would know what the doctor means, and you would strictly heed his warning. Well, apostates are 'mentally diseased', and they seek to infect others with their disloyal teachings."
A copy of the magazine, distributed by Jehovah's Witnesses around the world, was given to The Independent by a current member of the church who has become unhappy with official teaching but is afraid to leave for fear of losing his family.
"Many like me remain associated with the Witnesses out of fear of being uncovered as an 'apostate' and ousted, not just from the organisation, but from their own friends and families," said the man, who would only give the name John. "I find I am now branded as 'mentally diseased'– giving any who discover my true beliefs free licence to treat me with disdain."
As a faith with a centralised leadership, many forms of discipline are used to counter criticism of doctrine, with punishments ranging from restriction of official duties to excommunication. Those who have been thrown out of the church often find themselves ostracised by fellow believers.
A growing number of former and current Witnesses have begun to argue that the church's use of the word "mentally diseased" to describe defectors could be in breach of Britain's religious hatred laws. A group of former Witnesses in Portsmouth have now made an official complaint to Hampshire Police about the article and police are currently investigating.
Angus Robertson, a former Witness "elder" from Hampshire, who was present at the meeting with police officers, said: "The way scripture is being used to bully people must be challenged. If a religion was preaching that blacks or gays were mentally diseased there would understandable outrage."
Article taken from the INDEPENDENT.
This article is from September 2011. What's happened since then?

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