Question to Anti-trinitarians

[UNchained]

Nomi wrote:

Jehovah GOD was talking to Michael, the Archangel. Jesus had not come forth yet, at that time. Being made in his image, mean having a measure of the qualities that the Creator and his Son display. Those traits could be built upon to be more like them. Angels are Direct Creations...unlike man, who procreates offspring..they cannot.
<quoted text>

Nomi says:

"Angels are Direct Creations...unlike man, who procreates offspring..they cannot."

Tell that to your congregation elders and see how fast they correct and then label you either 'weak in the truth' or apostate.

January 15, 2006 Watchtower
Page 7

*** Angels—How They Affect Us ***

In Noah’s time an unspecified number of rebellious angels left their place in God’s heavenly family, came down to the earth, and materialized fleshly bodies. Why? They had developed a desire to have sexual relations with women. This led to their fathering offspring called Nephilim, who became violent giants.

[Aneirin]

UNchained wrote:

<quoted text>
Nomi says:
"Angels are Direct Creations...unlike man, who procreates offspring..they cannot."
Tell that to your congregation elders and see how fast they correct and then label you either 'weak in the truth' or apostate.
January 15, 2006 Watchtower
Page 7
*** Angels—How They Affect Us ***
In Noah’s time an unspecified number of rebellious angels left their place in God’s heavenly family, came down to the earth, and materialized fleshly bodies. Why? They had developed a desire to have sexual relations with women. This led to their fathering offspring called Nephilim, who became violent giants.

Nomi was referring to Angels not procreating with other Angels, not what Angels did in their genetic experiments on humans.

[UNchained]

Aneirin wrote:

<quoted text>
Nomi was referring to Angels not procreating with other Angels, not what Angels did in their genetic experiments on humans.

That is not what she said.

Then again, maybe you were channeling her thoughts.

[Ra88itt]

red blood relative wrote:

wow, it sure does take a lot of double talk to attempt to prove that jesus and the holy spirit are not part of god!

JW's....

The above can be translated as:

"I rbr cannot contest the truth of the matter posted against the three in one pretend God (that are in reality, three Gods) and I rbr have not bothered to contest the truth of the matter ! So, I, rbr, in my absolute inability to support my beliefs, have tried a little diversion and then subsequently posted a bit of irrelevant senseless diatribe" !

.

[red blood relative]

Ra88itt wrote:

<quoted text>
JW's....
The above can be translated as:
"I rbr cannot contest the truth of the matter posted against the three in one pretend God (that are in reality, three Gods) and I rbr have not bothered to contest the truth of the matter ! So, I, rbr, in my absolute inability to support my beliefs, have tried a little diversion and then subsequently posted a bit of irrelevant senseless diatribe" !
.

it only takes me a couple of sentences to refute your pages and pages of double talk nonsense.

there is the father, his spirit, and his word, and these three are one.
....ONE GOD, not two not three, they are all ONE GOD in differing forms.

[Ra88itt]

rbr

red blood relative wrote:

<quoted text>
it only takes me a couple of sentences to refute your pages and pages of double talk nonsense.
there is the father, his spirit, and his word, and these three are one.

Jesus and His God are one but only in the way that the scripture tells us, as follows...The followers of Jesus, men, were one with the Father and the son, but that doesn't make Jesus and men God just because they are one, obviously !
Do you really think that men are God because they are one with him ?!

So, your oneness idea is irrelevant and unrepresentative to what God really is. He is one God with a created son and a spirit of God, his active force.

What you really mean is it only takes you a couple of sentences of misrepresenting scripture by using them muddled up with post biblical Neo-Platonic and pagan concepts to self assume that you have refuted anti-trinitarian talk.

You need to go back to the your crooked drawing board and think up some more rubbish. Hopefully better rubbish next time rbr !

red blood relative wrote:

<quoted text>....ONE GOD, not two not three, they are all ONE GOD in differing forms.

It only takes me a couple of sentences to refute your limited pagan based triple talk nonsense.

There is the One and only true God, as the scriptures state. He is Not a God made up of three make believe forms of God or three make believe persons of God as post biblical pagan thought states, but Jehovah God is one true God only.

.

[Johan Henze]

The answer to the relative nature of perfection is given in scripture... Adam was the perfect man, but it didn't make him equal in perfection to His God Jehovah. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, similarly, it didn't make him equal in perfection to His God Jehovah.

As a human ransom sacrifice Jesus was on an equal footing of being a perfect man to that of Adam who was a perfect man.
That is why the God of Jesus, Jehovah, sent his son to sacrifice himself as a perfect man.

>>The Bible does not say anywhere Adam was equal ! Neither does the Bible say Jesus was his equal , you are reading into the Bible which is not there !!

Thanks for the support showing that Jesus is not God... Yes God, who is not Jesus, is the same yesterday and tomorrow, and the Angels,(of which Jesus was one) and humans too, who are sometimes called gods, are not the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

>>No Jesus is not an angel , the Bible dont say so either only JW and the first century Eusebites in fact the Bible shows angels to wax and wear of while Jesus does not ,aplying words the words which were attributed to God in the Psalms to Jesus in Heb 1 : 11 - 12 > Ps 102 : 25 - 27

>>They will pesrish but you will remain , they will wera out like a garment , you will roll them up to a robe , like agrament thwy will be changed , buy you REMAIN THE SAME your years will never end!

>>The same author tells us Jesus is the same yesterday today and tomorrow! Heb 13: 8 Only God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow

This is why the God of Jesus, named Jehovah, knows all things, and Jesus, a god, does not know all things ?... And Jesus can't do anything of his own initiative, but His God Jehovah can. God remains unchanged, omnipotent, all knowing, but his creation, Jesus, is not as perfect and knowing as his God and not being equal to or identical to God, he needs His Gods assistance in many things.

It’s been answered. But, okay, if you feel that you are not in support with my idea, I'll take your word for it.

Only if you believe Jesus to be God. Clearly he wasn't.

>>He is God and still is!

The reason why I support the JW’s on this matter is as follows:
God chose not to know all things because to initially intervene with the free will that he gave man, he might have well made us all automatons and have just programmed us to respond as he wished. To not know, it gave man the chance to use God’s gift of free will without God‘s intervention.
In essence then, the creation account is implying that God let man take his own course of action and he, God, initially stepped aside. There is a logical reason for God doing such a thing... But where does it say in scripture, or even imply it, that Jesus *chose* not to know all things and that there is a logical reason why he chose not to know the actual time of the end ?

>>So you agree with them that God chose not to foreknew whether Adam would sin since he had free will!If God chose not to foreknew that they will not sin would he then foreknew the end to the sinful human race Eabbit?

Surely, logically speaking, if Jesus was God on earth persistently preaching about the end times, about the new age to come, the presence of he the son of man, etc, etc, he would know all things and the time of the end ! There is no logic to he, Jesus, if he was God, to have chosen not to know all things and the time of the end, yet your “part one of God”, Jehovah, who is supposedly identical and equal to his son, chose to know all things !!
It seems then that it is a fact that Jehovah God chose not to know all things initially in the creation account, but that to the contrary, his son Jesus did not know all things, not by choice, but by the nature and make up of he not being an omnipotent God.

>>My answer is above which answer you point here!

[Johan Henze]

Correction I meant to say the Bible nowhere says Adam was created perfect ! JW are reading that into the Bible.

[rachel123]

Nomi wrote:

Jehovah GOD was talking to Michael, the Archangel. Jesus had not come forth yet, at that time. Being made in his image, mean having a measure of the qualities that the Creator and his Son display. Those traits could be built upon to be more like them. Angels are Direct Creations...unlike man, who procreates offspring..they cannot.
<quoted text>

What you post Nomi is not Biblical teaching.You who slandered me for posting verses of the Holy Bible.

Show us Nomi where it says in the Holy Bible Jesus was created?
Lets see who is posting Biblical teaching and who is not.

Regarding this heresy. Quote Nomi wrote.
Jehovah GOD was talking to Michael, the Archangel. Jesus had not come forth yet, at that time.

Here is what the Holy Bible says
Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

John 8:
58.Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 17.
5.And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

2 Tim 1.
9.Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

1 Pet 1.
20.Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Any verse come to mind Nomi that says Jesus had not come forth yet,at that time?

[red blood relative]

the jw pr reps are trying to claim that the holy spirit and the word are not god, thus there is only the father...... tisk tisk..... they don't know god.

the holy spirit is god....... yup,... he is god, not someone else........ and the word is god too, not someone else........ONE GOD, not two, not three, ONE.

[Open Minded Bible Student]

red blood relative wrote:

the jw pr reps are trying to claim that the holy spirit and the word are not god, thus there is only the father...... tisk tisk..... they don't know god.
the holy spirit is god....... yup,... he is god, not someone else........ and the word is god too, not someone else........ONE GOD, not two, not three, ONE.

RBR,

Can you post scriptures stating that the holy spirit is God?

That would be greatly appreciated :)

[Ra88itt]

Hi Johan

The answer to the relative nature of perfection is given in scripture... Adam was the perfect man, but it didn't make him equal in perfection to His God Jehovah. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, similarly, it didn't make him equal in perfection to His God Jehovah.

As a human ransom sacrifice Jesus was on an equal footing of being a perfect man to that of Adam who was a perfect man.
That is why the God of Jesus, Jehovah, sent his son to sacrifice himself as a perfect man.

Johan Henze wrote:

>>The Bible does not say anywhere Adam was equal !(Correction I meant to say the Bible nowhere says Adam was created perfect !) JW are reading that into the Bible. Neither does the Bible say Jesus was his equal , you are reading into the Bible which is not there !!

“And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him.”

It seems that God must be imperfect in your view Johan if you believe Adam was not perfect. Was Adam created perfect in the image of a perfect God, or was he created imperfect in the image of an imperfect God ?.... You know the true answer Johan !

Whatever, it does not mean that Adam was omnipotent like his creator God, he simply had the given perfection and qualities like his God. His perfection relative to his sin further emphasises this point that Adam was perfect, but he lost that perfection:

“When Adam disobeyed God and was condemned to death, he paid a very high price. His sin cost him his perfect human life with all its blessings.(Genesis 3:17-19) Sadly, Adam lost this precious life not only for himself but also for his future offspring. God’s Word says:“Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”

Further, Jesus was on an equal footing as a perfect man to that of Adam the first perfect man because Jesus had 'emptied' himself to become a perfect man.

Adam was the first 'Adam', man (perfect), Jesus was the last Adam (perfect man)...
1 Corinthians 15:45 "It is even so written:“The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

.

[Ra88itt]

Johan... continued:

Thanks for the support showing that Jesus is not God... Yes God, who is not Jesus, is the same yesterday and tomorrow, and the Angels,(of which Jesus was one) and humans too, who are sometimes called gods, are not the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Johan Henze wrote:

>>No Jesus is not an angel , the Bible dont say so either only JW and the first century Eusebites in fact the Bible shows angels to wax and wear of while Jesus does not ,aplying words the words which were attributed to God in the Psalms to Jesus in Heb 1 : 11 - 12 > Ps 102 : 25 – 27

No, the ancient followers of Jehovah knew that the foretold Messiah, the son of God, was an angel... Jesus is called "the angel of great counsel" in the Greek LXX Septuagint of Isaiah 9:5-6, which uses the noun "angel" (angellos) to translate " a god”(elohim in Hebrew) This was a common translation for the angelic beings who are the sons of God. They are the "gods" in the sense of being divine spirits with superhuman power. And Jesus was one, a god, an angel, as we can see.

Isaiah 9 was known to the early Christians, and naturally known to the later patristics, later, even Calvin recognised that fact and others too...they identified Jesus as the angel of Isaiah 9:5-6.

There before you Johan is a biblical example showing Jesus named as an angel... But you'll just discard it just as you do with all other bits and pieces of truth.

Johan Henze wrote:

>>They will pesrish but you will remain , they will wera out like a garment , you will roll them up to a robe , like agrament thwy will be changed , buy you REMAIN THE SAME your years will never end!

>>The same author tells us Jesus is the same yesterday today and tomorrow! Heb 13: 8 Only God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow

The WTS put this into perspective:

“ Why does Hebrews 1:10-12 quote Psalm 102:25-27 and apply it to the Son, when the psalm says that it is addressed to God? Because the Son is the one *through* whom God performed the creative works there described by the psalmist.(See Colossians 1:15, 16; Proverbs 8:22, 27-30.)"

And please note, this was in the manner of how the NT / OT writers wrote. What they applied to one did not always literally mean that the one written about later was the identical to the one they originally referred to. If that was so, Solomon below would be Jesus and you'd have four make believe 'persons' making up your your multiple "one" God !!...

"It should be observed in Hebrews 1:5b that a quotation is made from 2 Samuel 7:14 and applied to the Son of God. Although that text had its first application to Solomon, the later application of it to Jesus Christ does not mean that Solomon and Jesus are the same. Jesus is “greater than Solomon” and carries out a work foreshadowed by Solomon.—Luke 11:31.“

Also, as we can see, Jesus was the angel of great counsel. God remains the same, the angels do not. Jesus is not God and never was and never will be.

.

[Ra88itt]

Johan...

This is why the God of Jesus, named Jehovah, knows all things, and Jesus, a god, does not know all things ?... And Jesus can't do anything of his own initiative, but His God Jehovah can. God remains unchanged, omnipotent, all knowing, but his creation, Jesus, is not as perfect and knowing as his God, and not being equal to or identical to God, he needs His Gods assistance in many things.

Only if you believe Jesus to be God. Clearly he wasn't.

Johan Henze wrote:

>>He is God and still is!

No... God,(Jehovah) is *His God,* He is the God to Jesus, the bible tells us so. Obviously, the creator God, in relation to Jesus is one that is higher and superior, not equal or identical with his son.

John 20:17 Jesus said ' and say to them,‘I am ascending to My Father and Your Father and to *MY God* and Your God.’

Jesus: The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of *My God*. Revelation 3:14

Jesus cried out on the stake:“My God, My God”

...and the Word was *with* God, and the Word was a god. John 1:1 c

“What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me.” John 7:16

The reason why I support the JW’s on this matter is as follows:
God chose not to know all things because to initially intervene with the free will that he gave man, he might have well made us all automatons and have just programmed us to respond as he wished. To not know, it gave man the chance to use God’s gift of free will without God‘s intervention.

In essence then, the creation account is implying that God let man take his own course of action and he, God, initially stepped aside. There is a logical reason for God doing such a thing... But where does it say in scripture, or even imply it, that Jesus *chose* not to know all things and that there is a logical reason why he chose not to know the actual time of the end ?

Johan Henze wrote:

>>So you agree with them that God chose not to foreknew whether Adam would sin since he had free will! If God chose not to foreknew that they will not sin would he then foreknew the end to the sinful human race Eabbit?

Yes, because the scripture says that God knows the time of the end, but it doesn't say that the son of God knows !! Is that not in your bible !? So, God and his son cannot possibly be one and the same all knowing and almighty together.... One knows and one doesn't because one is almighty and all knowing and the other doesn't know all things, and not out of choice.

Whatever...You didn't answer my question:“where does it say in scripture, or even imply it, that Jesus *chose* not to know all things and that there is a logical reason why he chose not to know the actual time of the end ?

Logically speaking, if Jesus was God on earth persistently preaching about the end times, about the new age to come, the presence of he the son of man, etc, etc, he would know all things and the time of the end ! There is no logic to he, Jesus, if he was God, to have chosen not to know all things and the time of the end, yet your “part one of God”, Jehovah, who is supposedly identical and equal to his son, chose to know all things !!

It seems then that it is a fact that Jehovah God chose not to know all things initially in the creation account, but that to the contrary, his son Jesus did not know all things, not by choice, but by the nature and make up of he not being an omnipotent God.

.

[UNchained]

Open Minded Bible Student wrote:

<quoted text>
RBR,
Can you post scriptures stating that the holy spirit is God?
That would be greatly appreciated :)

Here is something for you to contemplate...

16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever. 17 He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn’t see Him or know Him. But you do know Him, because He remains with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.
John 14:16-18

In verse 17 Jesus tells his disciples that he will send another one to 'replace' him when he will be no longer physically among them. And that 'replacement' is no stranger to them.

In verse 18 when Jesus said, "I am coming to you." he is speaking of himself and the Spirit as having one identity.

[Johan Henze]

"Ra88itt"] >Hi Johan

The answer to the relative nature of perfection is given in scripture... Adam was the perfect man, but it didn't make him equal in perfection to His God Jehovah. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, similarly, it didn't make him equal in perfection to His God Jehovah.

As a human ransom sacrifice Jesus was on an equal footing of being a perfect man to that of Adam who was a perfect man.
That is why the God of Jesus, Jehovah, sent his son to sacrifice himself as a perfect man.

“And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him.”

It seems that God must be imperfect in your view Johan if you believe Adam was not perfect. Was Adam created perfect in the image of a perfect God, or was he created imperfect in the image of an imperfect God ?.... You know the true answer Johan !
Whatever, it does not mean that Adam was omnipotent like his creator God, he simply had the given perfection and qualities like his God. His perfection relative to his sin further emphasises this point that Adam was perfect, but he lost that perfection:
“When Adam disobeyed God and was condemned to death, he paid a very high price. His sin cost him his perfect human life with all its blessings.(Genesis 3:17-19) Sadly, Adam lost this precious life not only for himself but also for his future offspring. God’s Word says:“Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”
Further, Jesus was on an equal footing as a perfect man to that of Adam the first perfect man because Jesus had 'emptied' himself to become a perfect man.

Adam was the first 'Adam', man (perfect), Jesus was the last Adam (perfect man)...
1 Corinthians 15:45 "It is even so written:“The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
.
>>Once again Rabbitt the Bible does not say Adam was created perfect , you are reading that into the Bible , all it it shows is that the second Adam was man by nature !

>>The religion you defend teach even if something is created perfect by God it can fail!

[red blood relative]

Open Minded Bible Student wrote:

<quoted text>
RBR,
Can you post scriptures stating that the holy spirit is God?
That would be greatly appreciated :)

considering that throughout the whole bible, god appears to people in differing forms and accomplishes HIS will via his spirit, i find it interesting that you want to see a scripture specifically stating that the holy spirit is god.

who do you think the holy spirit is?..... someone else?

if a frog sticks out his tongue and zapps a fly and retrieves it, is it not the frog eating the fly?....... are you so blind that you think the frogs tongue is just his tonge, and for sure not the frog?

so you come to the conclusion that gods spirit is not him?

please show me anywhere in the whole bible where it specifically states that god's holy spirit is not him in some various form.

[Shell66]

red blood relative wrote:

i'm so glad i was able to come to my senses and get out of the wicked jw cult.
gosh, reading mad jw's comments and mr rabbits comments remind me of how sick i was.
their a sick bunch, but they don't know it. reasoning with them has no effect on them.
.... they left off following the truth, to continually prove their leadership is in charge.
lying became the chief agent of their salvation.
pretending to be righteous, while lying about everything they do, while calling everyone names, is their way of life.
and you can't talk them out of it..... unless they repent.

We all are so greatful to be out of this dangerous cult.

You are so right, by reading the hate and the so called self "righteousness" they Pretend to be makes me even stronger and closer to Jesus, they do us huge favors by acting in this way.. Proves they are so mentally unbalnced and sick in the mind.. Yes, its a great reminder of which we all can look back and be gretaful we have left..

Lying is a part of this dangerous organization, its a way of life for them all...

[Geeze Louise]

Shell66 wrote:

<quoted text>
We all are so greatful to be out of this dangerous cult.
You are so right, by reading the hate and the so called self "righteousness" they Pretend to be makes me even stronger and closer to Jesus, they do us huge favors by acting in this way.. Proves they are so mentally unbalnced and sick in the mind.. Yes, its a great reminder of which we all can look back and be gretaful we have left..
Lying is a part of this dangerous organization, its a way of life for them all...

You're just grateful to be out of jail. Time is short. All druggies are sick and mentally unbalanced. You never were a JW to leave.

[Mardana]

Geeze Louise wrote:

<quoted text>
.
You're just grateful to be out of jail. Time is short.
All druggies are sick and mentally unbalanced.

You never were a JW to leave.

.
So, are you a JW?

If so, can you explain why you decided to choose a user-name for the sole and intentional purpose of taunting and antagonizing a regular poster on this forum?

You and your friends got a kick out of the fact that it bothered her whenever you or your friends posted the phrase "Geez Louise".

So, you went one step further to taunt her by choosing that as your user-name.

And you are a JW......so very kind and Christ-like of you to intentionally taunt someone like that......*sigh*

Are your friends here proud of you?

.