Question to Anti-trinitarians

Question to Anti-trinitarians

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Gotyou

Houston, TX

#1 Aug 26, 2012
In Genesis 1:26, God is reported to say " Let us make man in our image". The pivotal question is: to whom God is speaking to in gen. 1:26? I would like to see how you[JWs] can slice the dice to answer this question.

To give you a hint: Genesis 1:26 says "then GOD[Elohim, plural for God] said let US[plural pronoum] make man in OUR[plural pronoum] image".

I know that some blind JWs would follow the WTS foolish explanation to say that God was speaking in plural of majesty in Genesis 1:26 but the problem is that this poetic device did not even exist in the Old Testament[Hebrew scriptures] of the Bible.

Another group of blind JWs would attempt to explain this scripture by saying that God was talking to angels in Gen. 1:26. The major problem with that is: Angels are created beings and thus they could not have part in creation. Angels are not creators.

So as you see: God is reported to say: "let US make man in our image". God was seeking advice or approval to create man in Genesis 1:26. The question remains: To whom God is speaking to in Gen. 1:26? I know that you will resort to any illogical ways to explian this verse out. Be as it may, I would to know your explanation.
Snorkler

Port Elizabeth, South Africa

#2 Aug 26, 2012
Gotyou wrote:
In Genesis 1:26, God is reported to say " Let us make man in our image". The pivotal question is: to whom God is speaking to in gen. 1:26? I would like to see how you[JWs] can slice the dice to answer this question.
To give you a hint: Genesis 1:26 says "then GOD[Elohim, plural for God] said let US[plural pronoum] make man in OUR[plural pronoum] image".
I know that some blind JWs would follow the WTS foolish explanation to say that God was speaking in plural of majesty in Genesis 1:26 but the problem is that this poetic device did not even exist in the Old Testament[Hebrew scriptures] of the Bible.
Another group of blind JWs would attempt to explain this scripture by saying that God was talking to angels in Gen. 1:26. The major problem with that is: Angels are created beings and thus they could not have part in creation. Angels are not creators.
So as you see: God is reported to say: "let US make man in our image". God was seeking advice or approval to create man in Genesis 1:26. The question remains: To whom God is speaking to in Gen. 1:26? I know that you will resort to any illogical ways to explian this verse out. Be as it may, I would to know your explanation.
Can we agree that God must have been speaking to someone ?
Gotyou

Houston, TX

#3 Aug 26, 2012
Snorkler wrote:
<quoted text>Can we agree that God must have been speaking to someone ?
I know you can do better than that. Can you try again?
Gotyou

Houston, TX

#4 Aug 26, 2012
Gotyou wrote:
In Genesis 1:26, God is reported to say " Let us make man in our image". The pivotal question is: to whom God is speaking to in gen. 1:26? I would like to see how you[JWs] can slice the dice to answer this question.
To give you a hint: Genesis 1:26 says "then GOD[Elohim, plural for God] said let US[plural pronoum] make man in OUR[plural pronoum] image".
I know that some blind JWs would follow the WTS foolish explanation to say that God was speaking in plural of majesty in Genesis 1:26 but the problem is that this poetic device did not even exist in the Old Testament[Hebrew scriptures] of the Bible.
Another group of blind JWs would attempt to explain this scripture by saying that God was talking to angels in Gen. 1:26. The major problem with that is: Angels are created beings and thus they could not have part in creation. Angels are not creators.
So as you see: God is reported to say: "let US make man in our image". God was seeking advice or approval to create man in Genesis 1:26. The question remains: To whom God is speaking to in Gen. 1:26? I know that you will resort to any illogical ways to explian this verse out. Be as it may, I would to know your explanation.
I meant to say in the latter part of my above post that God was seeking or offering cooperation when He said "let us make man in our image".

“"Leave the dead horses alone"”

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#5 Aug 26, 2012
Gotyou wrote:
In Genesis 1:26, God is reported to say " Let us make man in our image". The pivotal question is: to whom God is speaking to in gen. 1:26? I would like to see how you[JWs] can slice the dice to answer this question.
To give you a hint: Genesis 1:26 says "then GOD[Elohim, plural for God] said let US[plural pronoum] make man in OUR[plural pronoum] image".
I know that some blind JWs would follow the WTS foolish explanation to say that God was speaking in plural of majesty in Genesis 1:26 but the problem is that this poetic device did not even exist in the Old Testament[Hebrew scriptures] of the Bible.
Another group of blind JWs would attempt to explain this scripture by saying that God was talking to angels in Gen. 1:26. The major problem with that is: Angels are created beings and thus they could not have part in creation. Angels are not creators.
So as you see: God is reported to say: "let US make man in our image". God was seeking advice or approval to create man in Genesis 1:26. The question remains: To whom God is speaking to in Gen. 1:26? I know that you will resort to any illogical ways to explian this verse out. Be as it may, I would to know your explanation.
He was speaking to his first creative act:-

Rev 3:14
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
.........the beginning of the creation of God;

Col 1:15
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
.........the firstborn of all creation.

Proverbs 8:22
1. "The LORD [Jehovah] CREATED me at the beginning of his work" - RSV, and NRSV.(Footnote in NRSV says "Or [created] me as the beginning [of his work].").

2."The LORD MADE me..." - MLB

3."The Lord FORMED me..." - Living Bible.

4. "I was MADE in the very beginning." - Good News Bible.

5."Yahweh [Jehovah] CREATED me..." - Jerusalem Bible and NJB.

6."The LORD CREATED me..." - New English Bible and REB.

He was speaking to his architect/master worker:-

Proverbs 8:30
New International Version (©1984)
Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

New Living Translation (©2007)
I was the architect at his side. I was his constant delight, rejoicing always in his presence.

English Standard Version (©2001)
then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#6 Aug 26, 2012
Gotyou wrote:
In Genesis 1:26, God is reported to say " Let us make man in our image". The pivotal question is: to whom God is speaking to in gen. 1:26? I would like to see how you[JWs] can slice the dice to answer this question.
The real question here is "Why would God talk to himself?"

Clearly God is talking to another being. In this instance we know that it is Jesus Christ, through whom God created the universe.
Gotyou wrote:
To give you a hint: Genesis 1:26 says "then GOD[Elohim, plural for God] said let US[plural pronoum] make man in OUR[plural pronoum] image".
If that is a plural (and it is not) then you are saying "gods" as in more than one god. So be careful with that two-edged sword you are wielding.
Gotyou wrote:
I know that some blind JWs would follow the WTS foolish explanation to say that God was speaking in plural of majesty in Genesis 1:26 but the problem is that this poetic device did not even exist in the Old Testament[Hebrew scriptures] of the Bible.
Of course it existed.
Gotyou wrote:
Another group of blind JWs would attempt to explain this scripture by saying that God was talking to angels in Gen. 1:26. The major problem with that is: Angels are created beings and thus they could not have part in creation. Angels are not creators.
When God said "let us make man in our image" the angels were already created. Man was the LAST of God's creations after all.
Gotyou wrote:
So as you see: God is reported to say: "let US make man in our image". God was seeking advice or approval to create man in Genesis 1:26.
From himself? Give me a break!
Gotyou wrote:
The question remains: To whom God is speaking to in Gen. 1:26? I know that you will resort to any illogical ways to explian this verse out. Be as it may, I would to know your explanation.
God was speaking to Jesus and maybe the whole host of angels.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#7 Aug 26, 2012
Here are the angels singing with Joy while Jehovah God was creating the earth:

*** Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if you have understanding.

*** Job 38:5 Who determined its measures, if you know? Or who stretched the line on it?

*** Job 38:6 Whereupon were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,

*** Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#8 Aug 26, 2012
And, for the record, the 'plural of majesty' is not a 'poetic device'. It is a genuine article of grammar that is also present in modern day languages.
Gotyou

Houston, TX

#9 Aug 26, 2012
Gods Kingdom Rules wrote:
<quoted text> He was speaking to his first creative act:-
Rev 3:14
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
.........the beginning of the creation of God;
Col 1:15
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
.........the firstborn of all creation.
Proverbs 8:22
1. "The LORD [Jehovah] CREATED me at the beginning of his work" - RSV, and NRSV.(Footnote in NRSV says "Or [created] me as the beginning [of his work].").
2."The LORD MADE me..." - MLB
3."The Lord FORMED me..." - Living Bible.
4. "I was MADE in the very beginning." - Good News Bible.
5."Yahweh [Jehovah] CREATED me..." - Jerusalem Bible and NJB.
6."The LORD CREATED me..." - New English Bible and REB.
He was speaking to his architect/master worker:-
Proverbs 8:30
New International Version (©1984)
Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,
New Living Translation (©2007)
I was the architect at his side. I was his constant delight, rejoicing always in his presence.
English Standard Version (©2001)
then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,
So now you are saying that Jesus is both created and creator at the same time. Does that make sense?

“"Leave the dead horses alone"”

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#10 Aug 26, 2012
Gotyou wrote:
<quoted text> So now you are saying that Jesus is both created and creator at the same time. Does that make sense?
No it is the bible that says he was the first creation and that through (dia) him all other things were created. By other things I mean everything except Jehovah and Jesus. Jehovah God is the creator. It is through his Son he created everything.
Gotyou

Katy, TX

#11 Aug 26, 2012
Gods Kingdom Rules wrote:
<quoted text> No it is the bible that says he was the first creation and that through (dia) him all other things were created. By other things I mean everything except Jehovah and Jesus. Jehovah God is the creator. It is through his Son he created everything.
Show me in the Bible where it says that through JESUS all other things were created? Show me any Bible manuscript that says that Jesus created ALL OTHER things? Show me where I can find the word "other' in the original Bible? If you can do that then we have something to begin our discussion with. Can you do that? You can even use your WTS Interlinear Greek Bible to show me where I can find the word "other" as far as Jesus created all OTHER things.
Gotyou

Katy, TX

#12 Aug 26, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
And, for the record, the 'plural of majesty' is not a 'poetic device'. It is a genuine article of grammar that is also present in modern day languages.
It is present in our modern days but show me where that device was used in the Old Testament? That poetic device was never in existence in the Old Testament. You know it but you just have to defend your WTS at all costs and logic.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#14 Aug 26, 2012
Gotyou wrote:
It is present in our modern days but show me where that device was used in the Old Testament?
Everywhere that "elohim" is used to refer to Jehovah God.
Gotyou wrote:
That poetic device was never in existence in the Old Testament.
Of course it exists in the Old Testament. Elohim is a perfect example.

If it were otherwise the Jews would NEVER have been monotheistic. They would have believed in Jehovah as Gods (plural) rather than God (singular).

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#15 Aug 26, 2012
Gotyou wrote:
<quoted text>It is present in our modern days but show me where that device was used in the Old Testament? That poetic device was never in existence in the Old Testament. You know it but you just have to defend your WTS at all costs and logic.
I think your real problem is just believing any old trinity argument you find on the internet.

You would do better to listen to ACTUAL HEBREW SCHOLARS rather than whatever internet guru tells you what you want to hear.

The Hebrew scriptures use the plural form of "lord" to describe many men including: Abraham, Joseph, David and Elijah and the Pharaohs.

Abraham — Gen 24:9, 10, 51
Potiphar — Gen 39:2, 3, 7, 8, etc.
Joseph — Gen 42:30, 33; 44:8
Pharaoh — Gen 40:1
Saul — 1 Sam 26:15, 16; 29:4, 10, etc.
Nabal — 1 Sam 25:14, 17
David — 2 Sam 11:9; 1 Kgs 1:11, 33, 43, 47, etc.
Jonathan — 2 Sam 16:3; 20:38
Ahab — 1 Kgs 18:8, 11, 14; 2 Kgs 9:7
Elijah — 2 Kgs 2:3, 5, 16; 5:25
Ben-Hadad —(king of Syria) 2 Kgs 6:22, 23, 32; Isa 37:4
Hezekiah — 2 Kgs 18:27; 19:6; Isa 36:12
Messianic King — Ps 45:11, "he is your adonim, bow down to him"
I heart Jesus

Toronto, Canada

#16 Aug 26, 2012
Proverbs 8:22 speaks of WISDOM... not Jesus.
I heart Jesus

Toronto, Canada

#17 Aug 26, 2012
Elohim perfectly describes God's triune nature on that word alone. It's amazing how brainwashed you have to be to not get it.
Elohim is a unique plural form of a singular word- there's NO OTHER WORD like it or comparable to it because it can only refer to God's unique and triune nature.

The end.

Since: Sep 11

Tonbridge, UK

#18 Aug 26, 2012
IhJ
I heart Jesus wrote:
Elohim perfectly describes God's triune nature on that word alone. It's amazing how brainwashed you have to be to not get it.
Elohim is a unique plural form of a singular word- there's NO OTHER WORD like it or comparable to it because it can only refer to God's unique and triune nature.
The end.
Elohim is not always plural, it is only technically plural. The 'im' suffix (word ending) denotes plurality on Hebrew masculine words, But the 'im' suffix does also emphasise singularity when it refers to large or powerful singular things. You can check this out on the net IhJ.

Please look up the Hebrew word for tree / trees, "etsyim", and report back that the Hebrew 'im' suffix word here only refers to trees (plural)... or if you are honest, is it that the so called plural 'im' suffix "etsyim" can refer to one tree.

The Hebrew noun Elohim follows the same rules. Elohim in context can refer to one large and powerful singular God, it does so in Genesis 1:1. This is further enforced by the verb it lies with so that the Hebrew actually reads "He created", and the grammatical construction tells us that elohim here is singular.

Similarly, elohim is realistically singular in Genesis 1:26,27 and that it is the singular God speaking with others, the angels and his son Jesus, possibly in the plural sense of the excellence or majesty, talking about making man in their image. Please also note that he says in verse 26 'make' and not 'create'... There is a difference, as God can make something appear as something before or after He has created that something, man in this case, and the luminaries earlier on in Genesis 1 as a good example of the difference between the Hebraic make and create.

.
I heart Jesus

Toronto, Canada

#19 Aug 26, 2012
Ra88itt wrote:
IhJ
<quoted text>
Elohim is not always plural, it is only technically plural. The 'im' suffix (word ending) denotes plurality on Hebrew masculine words, But the 'im' suffix does also emphasise singularity when it refers to large or powerful singular things. You can check this out on the net IhJ.
Please look up the Hebrew word for tree / trees, "etsyim", and report back that the Hebrew 'im'
suffix word here only refers to trees (plural)... or
if you are honest, is it that the so called plural 'im'
suffix "etsyim" can refer to one tree.
The Hebrew noun Elohim follows the same rules.
Elohim in context can refer to one large and
powerful singular God, it does so in Genesis 1:1.
This is further enforced by the verb it lies with
so that the Hebrew actually reads "He created",
and the grammatical construction tells us that
elohim here is singular.
Similarly, elohim is realistically singular in
Genesis 1:26,27 and that it is the singular God
speaking with others, the angels and his son
Jesus, possibly in the plural sense of the
excellence or majesty, talking about making man
in their image. Please also note that he says in
verse 26 'make' and not 'create'... There is a
difference, as God can make something appear
as something before or after He has created that
something, man in this case, and the luminaries
earlier on in Genesis 1 as a good example of the
difference between the Hebraic make and create.
.
If you read the verse 'let us' as God speaking to His angels, this would render the interpretation unbiblical for the simple reason that GOD AND ONLY GOD ALONE is responsible for creation. Angels cannot create.
Elohim is referring to Himself, Father, Son and HS.
This harmonizes perfectly with the entire Bible:)

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#20 Aug 26, 2012
Who created the heaven and the earth?

The Spirit of who moved upon the face of the waters?

Who created the light?

Who divided the light from the darkness?

Who called the light Day, and the darkness Night?

Who made two great lights and the stars?

Who created great whales and every living creature that moves?

Who blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth?

Who made the beasts of the earth?

Who created man in the image of God?

On the 7th day, who rested from His work?

Whilst ansering theses questions bear in mind the WT says that Jesus created ALL OTHER things

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#21 Aug 26, 2012
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

And tremble they did.

Matthew8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

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