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Since: Aug 07

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#21
Feb 14, 2011
 
aardvark wrote:
<quoted text>
I was trying to highlight that arguing about the finer points of the blood doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses is a futile exercise when the underlying premise of obeying the Law to gain acceptance with God has no place within Christian teaching.
I am not so much changing the issue as getting to the very heart of the issue.
ok, I was trying to highlight that what the GB regarded as sacred no longer is and that they have watered down Gods word according to their own beliefs, should always have been a conscience matter not just for fractions.
aardvark

Inverurie, UK

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#22
Feb 14, 2011
 

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Agreed!

I should perhaps say that I avoid blood myself, but not for legal/salvation reasons.

It is a personal thing, out of respect for the blood of Christ.

teleologist

Glendale, AZ

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#23
Feb 14, 2011
 

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noahsday wrote:
Blood is precious in Gods eyes.
Yes, blood is precious in God's eyes that is why we are told not to eat it. Blood is a unique life sustaining substance and it is disrepectful to use it for such a mundane purpose as a meal. For example: a human kidney is a precious life sustaining organ. Most persons would agree that eating a human kidney would be wrong. However donating a human kidney to save a life is a good thing. Life is precious in God's eyes. Jesus said the greatest expression of love is to surrender one's life in behalf of one's friends. Life belongs to God yet He allows us to give our life in behalf of others. The only way God would allow us to give our life for others but forbid us from giving a little of our blood to save others is if He condiders blood to be more precious than life itself which is absurd. Eating blood as food is wrong. Using blood as blood to save life by transplanting it into another persons circulatory system where it will perform the same God ordained function it performed in the donor's body is an honorable use of blood.
son of mr fenger

Carrollton, TX

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#24
Feb 14, 2011
 
teleologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Why should they have a problem with fractions when they can take transfusions of whole blood?
That is indeed an interesting question, one I have pondered on many occasions.
I await Third w. continuing his "Marvin Shimler" interview.

“thirdwitness.com”

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#25
Jun 26, 2011
 

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Still working on part 2 of the interview
Liberal JW

San Francisco, CA

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#26
Jun 26, 2011
 

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Thirdwitness has been out of touch with Jehovah's people for so long she doesn't know what is happening in the Organization and is teaching "old light." For a look at how most Jehovah's Witnesses feel about the blood issue see: http://www.ajwrb.org/

Even now a majority of the Governing Body feel that a Jehovah's Witness' choice of medical treatment is a personal matter. This new policy will soon be announced early next year in the Kingdom Ministry.

“thirdwitness.com”

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#27
Jan 24, 2012
 

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Part 2 still in the making.

“thirdwitness.com”

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#28
Jan 24, 2012
 

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We have in our possession a letter allegedly written by the Watchtower Society, dated February 21, 2007, to an individual who had made inquiry. If I may quote from the letter:

“As to blood’s medical uses, a careful examination of what has been published by Jehovah’s Witnesses will reveal that our consistent position has been that whole blood of any of one of its four primary components—plasma, red cells, white cells, and platelets—should not be used. That is how unfractionated blood components settle out naturally. In its still unbroken-down state, each separated primary component....can still represent...the life of the creature.....the use of minor fractions of blood...should be left to the individual to decide..."

Your comment please on blood "settling out naturally" into the 4 primary components "in its still unbroken down state".

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Marvin: "For about the last 50 years blood banks have had technology to separate blood into the components of red cells, white cells, platelets and plasma....Blood banks found blood could be separated by centrifuge because various components within blood consistently have a predictable range of specific gravity, and this process did not deactivate biological function."

So the natural law of gravity and natural specific gravity of each of the primary components allows them to "separate in a natural setting" without deactivating biological function?

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Marvin: "Approximate specific gravity [SP] for plasma, platelets, white cells and red cells is as follows:
Plasma: c. 1.027
Platelets: c. 1.040
White cells: c. 1.090
Red cells: c. 1.094
Under normal gravity and without other influential factors, if left in a static condition the four constituents above would separate cleanly and in the order of SP respectively. Red cells having the higher specific gravity would separate to the bottom and plasma would be on top. But there are other influential facts of cohesion, molecular size and coagulation. Hence blood in a static state does not SEPARATE AS CLEANLY AS IT WOULD OTHERWISE."

What of the plasma separating from the cellular matter? "Plasma does not separate from platelets in a natural setting?"

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Marvin: "In a natural setting plasma does separate from blood’s heavier constituents"

"By the expression you use,'heavier cellular components', are you including platelets as heavier cellular components that plasma separates from?"

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Marvin: "That a substantial amount of plasma had separated from, yes."

“thirdwitness.com”

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#29
Jan 24, 2012
 

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So static blood separates into the primary components but as you stated not "AS CLEANLY AS IT WOULD OTHERWISE."

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Marvin: "blood treated with an anticoagulant will separate as three components: plasma, buffy coat and red cells. The platelets and white cells are comingled as one separation [buffy coat]."

"Is there a particular reason why you call the buffy coat platelets and white blood cells?" Doesn't that "tell us a little something?"

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Marvin: "Yes. There is a particular reason. The buffy coat is the separation where we find the highest concentration of white cells and platelets."

“thirdwitness.com”

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#30
Jan 26, 2012
 

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More to come on Marvin's comments about equating transfusing blood to eating blood.

“thirdwitness.com”

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#31
Jul 17, 2012
 

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For those who want to read about the many ways Marvin has agreed with JWs on the blood issue.

“thirdwitness.com”

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#32
Feb 10, 2013
 

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For those who are interested in the ambiguity of Marvin and Shilmer.

“thirdwitness.com”

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#33
Feb 10, 2013
 

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Marvin, lets now talk about the different ways that transfusing blood can be equated with eating blood?

1. Is transfusing blood and eating blood both to be considered as consuming blood?

Marvin: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
"Transplanting blood is consuming blood."

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
"Dietary use of blood....Tissue transplantation...both are CONSUMPTION"

2. Can transfusing blood be equated to eating blood in that either way the blood is used to sustain the body receiving it.

Marvin:
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
"Of course plasma has a value to help sustain life, this is why it is used in transfusion medicine as are many other products from blood."

3. Can transfusing blood be equated to eating blood in that either way the blood is used as nourishment for the body receiving it.

Marvin:
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
"Nourishment is anything taken into the body so sustain life."

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
"nourishment is anything that helps sustain the body, which would include acts such as topical application of fresh blood to a wound or severe burn."

So certainly if Marvin believes that topical application of blood is nourishment then most definitely he believes that intravenous feeding of blood would be nourishment to the body receiving it.

Yahoo Me

Wausau, WI

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#34
Feb 10, 2013
 
No disrespect at Marvin because I just LOVE your postings and I really learn alot from them, however, is this blood thing not been played out so many times already and if epople want to know all they have to do is look at past threads,

This whole blood issue is so darn silly, but I have seen people go for weeks and weeks posting barely coming up for air..

Thank-u

“thirdwitness.com”

Since: Aug 08

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#35
Feb 10, 2013
 
Continuing

4. Please tell us Marvin, can transfusing blood be equated to eating blood in that either way the blood provides nutritional benefit as food.

Marvin:
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
"if transfusing constituents from blood provides nutritional benefit as food, then it is false to say Witnesses abstain from blood. This is my perspective, too."

So again we see that 'if transfusing constituents from blood provides nutritional benefit as food' then transfusing blood itself would do the same.

Next question 5. Can transfusing blood be equated to eating blood in that either way the blood provides nutritional value to the body.

Marvin:
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
"Transplanting blood intravenously ... will provide nutritional value to the body"

6. Since it is scientific fact that transfused blood will end up placing blood matter into the digestive tract, can transfusing blood be equated to eating blood in that either way matter is placed in the digestive tract because of the blood entering the body.

Marvin:
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
"Eating is to place matter into our digestive tract."

7. Since transfused blood is new material that was not in the body before being transfused into the body, can transfusing blood can be equated to eating blood in that either way the intake of that blood is providing nutrition or new material/energy for the body receiving it.

Marvin:
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
"Nutrition is the intake and extraction of new materials/energy."

8. Marvin do you also understand and agree with JWs that transfusing blood can NOT be equated to eating blood in that either way it is administered in the same manner.

Marvin:
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
"I HAVE NOT asserted that Watchtower teaches that intravenous administration and swallowing matter are THE SAME as physical acts....
-- I HAVE asserted that Watchtower teaches that intravenous administration of BLOOD and swallowing BLOOD are acts that should be EQUATED. Got that?"

Yes we do 'got that'. We do understand that you agree that WT DOES NOT TEACH that intravenous administration of blood and swallowing blood are equal in that they are the same physical acts or administered into the body in the same exact manner. We also understand that Marvin equates transfusing of blood to eating blood in the same exact way that the WT publications equate transfusing of blood to eating blood.

“thirdwitness.com”

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#36
Feb 10, 2013
 
Let me summarize:

Marvin, you have agreed with the WT publications that transfusing blood is equated to eating blood in that either way:

1. blood is consumed by the body receiving it.

2. blood is used to sustain the body receiving it.

3. blood is used as nourishment for the body receiving it.

4. blood provides nutritional benefit as food to the body receiving it.

5. blood provides nutritional value to the body receiving it.

6. matter from blood is placed in the digestive tract of the body receiving it.

7. blood is providing nutrition or new material/energy for the body receiving it.

8. blood is NOT equated in the way it is administered into the body receiving it.

Once again, we thank you Marvin Shilmer for showing us that you agree with the WT publications and Jehovah's Witnesses and that transfusing blood can be equated to eating blood in various ways but NOT in the way it is administered.
Teleologist

Flagstaff, AZ

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#37
Feb 11, 2013
 

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Thirdwitness wrote:
Let me summarize:
Marvin, you have agreed with the WT publications that transfusing blood is equated to eating blood in that either way:

Blood is consumed by the body receiving it.
Consumption is not necessarily eating.
Thirdwitness wrote:
Blood is used to sustain the body receiving it.
Then JW's sustain their body with blood when they take an autologous blood transfusion as part of a "current therapy".
Thirdwitness wrote:
blood is used as nourishment for the body receiving it.
If true, then JW's get nourishment for their body when they take an autologous blood transfusion as part of a "current therapy".
Thirdwitness wrote:
Blood provides nutritional benefit as food to the body receiving it.
If true, then when JW's receive an autologous blood transfusion as part of a "current therapy" they get nutritional benefit from the blood as food.
Thirdwitness wrote:
Blood provides nutritional value to the body receiving it.
If true, then autologous blood provides nutritional value to the body receiving it.
Thirdwitness wrote:
Matter from blood is placed in the digestive tract of the body receiving it.
If true, then matter from autologous blood is placed in the digestive tract of the body receiving it.
Thirdwitness wrote:
Blood is providing nutrition or new material/energy for the body receiving it.
If a transfusion of donor blood provides nutrition for the body then a transfusion of autologous blood as part of a "current therapy" also provides nutrition for the body.
Thirdwitness wrote:
Blood is NOT equated in the way it is administered into the body receiving it.
Not according to the Watchtower Society:

“Why is taking a blood transfusion not actually different from “eating” blood?”—[Live Forever, published by Watchtower, 1989, p. 25]

“Explain why getting a blood transfusion is not actually different from ‘eating.’”—[Truth That Leads to Eternal Life, published by Watchtower, 1981, p. 167]

Since: Jun 10

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#38
Feb 13, 2013
 
son of mr fenger wrote:
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Do Jehovah's Witnesses abstain from blood? If so, where do they get the blood fractions they do take into their body?
son of mr fenger...

The Governing Bodys accept the storage of tons of killed animals blood and that their members can get use of derivates from this source... e.g. the hemoglobin which makes up a major part of the non water blood and platelet gels... in spite of and violating their own everchanging evil and weird doctrines of men... with reference to Genesis 9:4, Leviticus 17:13 and Acts 15.20,29...:HUH:

As the Governing Bodys states... Double standards are better than standards... No wonder why Jesus condemned the Scribes and Pharisees and their like in the whole of Matthew chapter 23...

Reference: Kingdom Ministry November 2006, an internal Watchtower publication.

http://www.aggelia.be/km_nov2006.pdf
Thirdwitness

United States

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#39
Mar 28, 2014
 

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What ever happened to Marvin Shilmer?

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