Life and death / soul and flesh

Life and death / soul and flesh

Posted in the Jehovah's Witness Forum

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Christakos

Athens, Greece

#1 Feb 19, 2013
Hi, if theres an open minded Witness that likes to exchange and taste thought with me on life/death crucial subject, it would be great.

Id like to talk about Ecclesiastes, but before this I want to present two views that give support to soul/flesh distinction. Your comments, ideas, disagreements will be highly appreaciated.

1)JWs say we're not robots but have free will. The problem is that all organelles and macromolecules of our fleshy cells are unconscious and have no free will, simply obeying to biological and chemical laws, programs, codes(artificial intelligence). Free will is against restrictions and laws.

2) Jesus' phrase "fear not the one that can kill the body but the one that can kill the soul in Gehenna. JWs say here "soul" is the character of the person. Using this interpretation they still unconsciously distinct flesh from "character", accepting the existence of a person that will be resurrected with a new immortal fleshy body, no matter if this mortal fleshy body vanish.

So, in these 2 examples JWs unconsciously accept something more than the flesh, which they simply not like calling "soul" or distinct it from the body, perhaps because other religions used this terminology. JWs, your opinions are very welcome

Jesus be with you
Christakos

Athens, Greece

#2 Feb 19, 2013
Lets talk here please. Sorry for the incovenience. Discard the other post.
Christakos

Athens, Greece

#3 Feb 19, 2013
In my second example, if JWs equated this flesh with the person(soul), then there would be no hope for a resurrection in a new flesh, if we accept this flesh is destroyed forever and flesh=person/character/soul.
little lamb

Australia

#4 Feb 19, 2013
I believe a person is a body soul and spirit.

The Body is what houses the soul..your personality and the spirit, by which you move and exist.

When Jesus was resurrected I believe it was the whole person, body soul and spirit..but there was a change in the body...he could both materialize and disappear at will...We have not had this manifest to us yet...but when we see him we will be like him
little lamb

Australia

#5 Feb 19, 2013
Christakos wrote:
1)JWs say we're not robots but have free will. The problem is that all organelles and macromolecules of our fleshy cells are unconscious and have no free will, simply obeying to biological and chemical laws, programs, codes(artificial intelligence). Free will is against restrictions and laws.
I believe the scripture that says " as a man thinks so he is."

your thoughts do affect the chemical balances in your body..Your emotions can affect you.

"A Joyful heart does well as a curer," eg.

I believe Jesus says " he has the sayings of everlasting life"

And that obeying him and keeping his commandments stored up inside us , does what he promises " becomes a fountain of streams of living water, bubbling up to give us everlasting life."
Christakos

Athens, Greece

#6 Feb 19, 2013
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe the scripture that says " as a man thinks so he is."
your thoughts do affect the chemical balances in your body..Your emotions can affect you.
"A Joyful heart does well as a curer," eg.
I believe Jesus says " he has the sayings of everlasting life"
And that obeying him and keeping his commandments stored up inside us , does what he promises " becomes a fountain of streams of living water, bubbling up to give us everlasting life."
Very interesting thoughts. As you point, not only the flesh affects the soul, but also the soul can affect the flesh. We can also call it character,person,mind,self.

I would just like to hear what JWS think about the problems I posed. Another JW guy had told me that "soul"(in Jesus verse "fear the one that can kill the soul") is the DNA code. But as I showed in 1) man is not a robot executing an impersonal code of a biological program, but has free will.

As for free will, we all know that we have it because its the most deepest and evident thing in ourselves that we will(desire) for truth and we dont want(will,wish) to be fooled. So free will is not an effect, but a cause of our actions.
Christakos

Athens, Greece

#7 Feb 19, 2013
little lamb wrote:
I believe a person is a body soul and spirit.
The Body is what houses the soul..your personality and the spirit, by which you move and exist.
When Jesus was resurrected I believe it was the whole person, body soul and spirit..but there was a change in the body...he could both materialize and disappear at will...We have not had this manifest to us yet...but when we see him we will be like him
As I saw from another post of yours, you believe man can exist only as a unity of flesh/soul/spirit. If one of them breaks, man perishes. Very interesting alternative thought.

Read this. We experience ourselves as ONE, not more than one. I dont experience myself as a part of my flesh. This flesh I have is mine because I control it and she affects me, in a full duplex communication. But I havent experienced myself as a cell particle. I can only receive messages through the peripheral and central nervous system.

On the other hand, some have tried to say that the fact we experience ourselves as one is that we are the flesh and nothing more. Then despite the free will problem, they should also be able to explain how we ACT as one, contrary with the trillion particles of cells that simultaneously carry different tasks.

Now, its true that if the spirit of God leaves the flesh it dies. But what about the soul? Does it dies too? Does it sleeps, "waiting" for the resurrection in a new perfect body, or is it conscious?

Of course when flesh dies his thoughts perish, meaning that he loses contact with his brain memory, although experiments have shown that man can still remember for a period of time, even if some brain parts related with memories are removed. Cause our brain memory is like a hard disk or compact disk, its not the MAIN memory, but a secondary we can search/scan for stored data and info. This reminds me of the waters from the spring of Oblivion, that the dead drink in Hades, in contracts with the waters from the spring of Remembrance.

So, what is really happening with the soul? Very interesting. Does it sleeps and JWs are half right when they talk about "soul sleep"? Or is the saved christian soul consciously waiting for a body, residing in the aetherial world?
Jean Dixon

Middletown, NY

#8 Feb 20, 2013
The changing Moon enters your fourth house of home and family, blending well with Neptune and giving you greater clarity into your family relationships. This can be a time of healing for you as well as for your personal relationships. Compromise and adjustments will be needed however, which might go a little against your grain.
man_711

Renton, WA

#9 Feb 20, 2013
1)JWs say we're not robots but have free will. I believe its calla a brain.
20 Think of a movie taking pictures of someone. Long after they are death you can still see their body, however it is long gone. Don't you think God can do better then that?
little lamb

Australia

#10 Feb 20, 2013
I believe its interesting that scripture tells us we can be led by either the spirit or the flesh.

And what that shows is that 'desires' and passions can motivate us into action...and Gods word say all who obey the flesh will die..

But if we put the desires of the flesh to death by the spirit we live.

So that's interesting, because it shows man is made in such a way that he can choose, his destination.

But then if he chooses sin..he actually becomes addictive, and he becomes a slave of sin..he then finds his power to will and act is diminished.

God says he gives us the power to will and act, and that is strengthened by obedience to his Christ's commandments.

Jesus leads us out of death and has the sayings of everlasting life..that is knowledge , which is light

And Jesus has been given to us as the LIGHT of the world....in turn through following him, and being obedient to him, we are to let our light shine before all men.

Since: Jul 11

Portadown

#11 Feb 21, 2013
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe the scripture that says " as a man thinks so he is."
your thoughts do affect the chemical balances in your body..Your emotions can affect you.
"A Joyful heart does well as a curer," eg.
I believe Jesus says " he has the sayings of everlasting life"
And that obeying him and keeping his commandments stored up inside us , does what he promises " becomes a fountain of streams of living water, bubbling up to give us everlasting life."
Do you be believe Jesus when he said!

John 14.
6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Or do you believe the watch tower that we must identify with them and serve God as part of them his visible presence on earth, to have any hope of living forever on paradise earth?

Did you find that verse yet Little watch tower Lamb that says Jesus is Michael the arch angel as taught by the watch tower?

Since: Jul 11

Portadown

#12 Feb 21, 2013
little lamb wrote:
I believe a person is a body soul and spirit.
The Body is what houses the soul..your personality and the spirit, by which you move and exist.
When Jesus was resurrected I believe it was the whole person, body soul and spirit..but there was a change in the body...he could both materialize and disappear at will...We have not had this manifest to us yet...but when we see him we will be like him
Do you believe Jesus when he said in,
John 14. 7 .If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
little lamb

Australia

#13 Feb 22, 2013
rachel123 wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you believe Jesus when he said in,
John 14. 7 .If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Absolutely..Jesus is the " exact representation of Gods very being" so who ever sees Jesus sees God the father

Since: Jul 11

Portadown

#14 Feb 22, 2013
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
Absolutely..Jesus is the " exact representation of Gods very being" so who ever sees Jesus sees God the father
Representation is not mentioned in this verse Little watch tower Lamb.

Read it again....John 14. 7 .If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

"and from henceforth ye know him", Not,ye know a representation of him! "and have seen him" Not have seen a representation of him!

You are disobeying Gods command Little watch tower Lamb by adding to his word!

While we are on this chapter of Johns Gospel,take a read of verse 2 and 3,Little watch tower Lamb!

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Show me how this fits in with the watch tower teaching of paradise on earth?
little lamb

Australia

#15 Feb 22, 2013
rachel123 wrote:
<quoted text>
Representation is not mentioned in this verse Little watch tower Lamb.
Read it again....John 14. 7 .If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
But it is written....

Hebrews 1 ..[3]
Weymouth New Testament
He brightly reflects God's glory and is the exact representation of His being, and upholds the universe by His all-powerful word. After securing man's purification from sin He took His seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

King James Bible
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

GOD'S WORD
His Son is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's being. He holds everything together through his powerful words. After he had cleansed people from their sins, he received the highest position, the one next to the Father in heaven.

International Standard Version
He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty

So it explains why when we see Jesus we see the Father.

Since: Jul 11

Portadown

#16 Feb 22, 2013
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
But it is written....
Hebrews 1 ..[3]
Weymouth New Testament
He brightly reflects God's glory and is the exact representation of His being, and upholds the universe by His all-powerful word. After securing man's purification from sin He took His seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
King James Bible
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
GOD'S WORD
His Son is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's being. He holds everything together through his powerful words. After he had cleansed people from their sins, he received the highest position, the one next to the Father in heaven.
International Standard Version
He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty
So it explains why when we see Jesus we see the Father.
Exposes the false doctrine of the watch tower that Jesus was Michael the arch angel though, Little Lamb,well done!

You post..Quote..
King James Bible
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 1.
13.But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

This statement of yours Little watch tower Lamb..Quote
...After he had cleansed people from their sins, he received the highest position, the one next to the Father in heaven.

Remember John 14.3? That where I am there ye may be also?

Why does the watch tower teach that we must identify with and serve God as part of their org. to have any hope of living forever on paradise earth that is not even mentioned once in the the Holy Bible,Little watch tower Lamb?

Where is this teaching of the watch tower found in the Holy Scriptures Little watch tower Lamb that says Jesus was Michael the arch angel?
little lamb

Australia

#17 Feb 22, 2013
rachel123 wrote:
<quoted text>
Exposes the false doctrine of the watch tower that Jesus was Michael the arch angel though, Little Lamb,well done!
You post..Quote..
King James Bible
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1.
13.But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
This statement of yours Little watch tower Lamb..Quote
...After he had cleansed people from their sins, he received the highest position, the one next to the Father in heaven.
Remember John 14.3? That where I am there ye may be also?
Why does the watch tower teach that we must identify with and serve God as part of their org. to have any hope of living forever on paradise earth that is not even mentioned once in the the Holy Bible,Little watch tower Lamb?
Where is this teaching of the watch tower found in the Holy Scriptures Little watch tower Lamb that says Jesus was Michael the arch angel?
Until God reveals the fact Jesus is the Son of God, to you ...its fruitless trying to discuss what Jesus name was prior to being born as a man.

The trinity doctrine really messes up clear thinking and dirties up the clear waters..

so its silly on your part to ask questions that are programed from a false trinity mindset...

it just produces debates and arguments that never get resolved..because your pet doctrine acts as a filter to any truth getting through.

So don't try to argue or debate something with me, whilst you are in a prejudice mind set..I won't enter into it with you.
UNchained

Loudon, TN

#18 Feb 22, 2013
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
Until God reveals the fact Jesus is the Son of God, to you ...its fruitless trying to discuss what Jesus name was prior to being born as a man.
The trinity doctrine really messes up clear thinking and dirties up the clear waters..
so its silly on your part to ask questions that are programed from a false trinity mindset...
it just produces debates and arguments that never get resolved..because your pet doctrine acts as a filter to any truth getting through.
So don't try to argue or debate something with me, whilst you are in a prejudice mind set..I won't enter into it with you.
John 1:1-2,14 tells us exactly who Jesus was before he became flesh and took up residence among us...

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.

The Word became flesh
and took up residence among us.
We observed His glory,
the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father,
full of grace and truth.

John 1:1-2,14
little lamb

Australia

#19 Feb 22, 2013
UNchained wrote:
<quoted text>
John 1:1-2,14 tells us exactly who Jesus was before he became flesh and took up residence among us...
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
The Word became flesh
and took up residence among us.
We observed His glory,
the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father,
full of grace and truth.
John 1:1-2,14
It tells you who the WORD was...it doesn't say who Jesus was..because The word was made flesh before he received the name JESUS...so a creation a new man was being created in Jesus.

Since: Jul 11

Portadown

#20 Feb 22, 2013
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
Until God reveals the fact Jesus is the Son of God, to you ...its fruitless trying to discuss what Jesus name was prior to being born as a man.
The trinity doctrine really messes up clear thinking and dirties up the clear waters..
so its silly on your part to ask questions that are programed from a false trinity mindset...
it just produces debates and arguments that never get resolved..because your pet doctrine acts as a filter to any truth getting through.
So don't try to argue or debate something with me, whilst you are in a prejudice mind set..I won't enter into it with you.
Show me where I asked you what Jesus name was prior to anything little watch tower lamb?
Are you having delusions?

Show me where I even mentioned the word trinity?
What kind of watch tower witness are you Little Lamb?

Look at this amazing post of yours...
Quote ...Little Lamb wrote..
So don't try to argue or debate something with me, whilst you are in a prejudice mind set..I won't enter into it with you.

The watch tower only allows you to argue with people who agree with your mindset,so there wont be any argument!

God says Little watch tower Lamb.
John 4
1.Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
On Gods authority I ask again Little watch tower Lamb,
Why does the watch tower teach that we must identify with and serve God as part of their org. to have any hope of living forever on paradise earth that is not even mentioned once in the the Holy Bible,Little watch tower Lamb?

Where is this teaching of the watch tower found in the Holy Scriptures Little watch tower Lamb that says Jesus was Michael the arch angel?

Its a "QUESTION" not an "ARGUMENT" or "DEBATE"! arising from what you posted Little watch tower Lamb!

What's the problem? can you not find it in the Holy Scriptures?

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