Since: Dec 06

Southwest Harbor, ME

#42 Jul 9, 2012
the name of my dog is SAM wrote:
<quoted text>
abraham and company are dead right now you better read the scriptures
With this I'll skip down a bit and add this:
the name of my dog is SAM wrote:
the god of the living means in God memory they are living to him he don`t think of them as dead.
You mentioned that I had better read the scriptures, but then you post that the dead are only alive in God's memory...yet Jesus calls the Father the God of the living, not of the dead...He didn't say that they are the remembered.
Now it may be that you have a scripture to back this up...I'll wait and see.
the name of my dog is SAM wrote:
(Ezekiel 18:4)...The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.
Interesting when this is read in context with the rest of the passage. Here The LORD is telling the reader that no longer will it be true in Israel that: "The fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge."
Which seems to me to be saying that the son will not be punished because the Father sinned.
The word soul does not mean spirit...it means person.
the name of my dog is SAM wrote:
(Ezekiel 18:20) 20 The soul that is sinning—it itself will die....
The key phrase that you left out of verse 20 is "...A son won't suffer punishment the father's iniquity, and a father won't suffer punishment for the son's iniquity."
The point of this, and the above passage, is not that the dead are not conscious
but that the person who sins will be punished

Since: Dec 06

Southwest Harbor, ME

#43 Jul 9, 2012
the name of my dog is SAM wrote:
(Ecclesiastes 9:5)...as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all,...
This is another verse that needs the context. Look what happens when all of 9:5 and 6 are included:
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead don't know anything. There is no longer a reward for them because the memory of them is forgotten.(v6) Their love, their hate, and their envy have already disappeared, and there is no longer a portion for them in all that is done under the sun."
SAM what does that phrase "under the sun" mean to you?
the name of my dog is SAM wrote:
(Psalm 115:17) 17 The dead themselves do not praise Jah, Nor do any going down into silence.
Look at all of Psalm 115, it's speaking from the point of view of those on earth...where the dead do not rise and Praise the LORD. Just as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead and in the ground to us...but in reality God knows them as they really are...living.
the name of my dog is SAM wrote:
where in the Bible does it say the spirit is a living being?
Those exact words in that order? I don't know, but Jesus, in John 11:25-26 says: "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in Me, even if he dies, will live. Everyone who lives and believes in Me lill never die...ever."
SAM will a true believer in Christ ever die?
the name of my dog is SAM wrote:
NOW IS THE TIME TO REPENT REJECT THE 1/2 DEAD TRINITY JESUS AND HIS 1/2 SACRIFICE ACCEPT THE SON OF gOD AND HIS FULL DEATH SACRIFICE
SAM, a slogan doesn't equal truth

Since: Dec 06

Southwest Harbor, ME

#44 Jul 9, 2012
Jah Fan wrote:
I have absolutely no doubt that the Bible shows Jesus to be our Savior, our Ransom, perfect, king, and the Son of God but not God.
Jah Fan, What do you make of John 1:1-3 which tells us that Jesus is the uncreated Creator of all that has been created? Or Colossians 1:16-17 which tells us that everything (not every other thing) was created by Jesus, and was created for Jesus, and everything that was created is held together by Jesus?
What do you make of John 20:28 where Thomas calls Jesus "the Lord of me and the God of me" without being corrected, but instead was praised?

What do you make of all the worship Jesus gets in Revelation 5:8-14 where Jesus is praised and worshiped by every creature in heaven and earth?

There is also Zechariah 12:10 where the LORD God predicts that the residents of Jerusalem will: "look at Me whom they pierced." The question for this verse is When was the LORD God pierced by the inhabitants of Jerusalem?

Just a few questions for you

Since: Dec 06

Southwest Harbor, ME

#45 Jul 9, 2012
Self Righteous Topsy wrote:
What makes sense?
Before Elvis was TOPSY.....
Before Elvis was TOPSY was born...
Verse 57 is speaking about a time frame, and Jesus is saying he was here before Abraham, not some secret message....
So the Jews tried to stone him because he was claiming to be really old?

Since: Mar 09

United States

#46 Jul 9, 2012
Not if they hang on to the Trinity.

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#47 Jul 10, 2012
Sam, where was God The Father before he supposedly created his son?

Was there ever a time when God was not Father?
man711

United States

#48 Jul 10, 2012
the name of my dog is SAM wrote:
ask a trinitarian if they believe Jesus dies for their sins and they will say YES.
Ask a Trinitarian id Jesus is God they will say YES
Ask a trinatarian if God can die they will say NO
they will say the human part of Jesus dies but the God part of Jesus did not die.
Well if jesus was partly alive that was not a death.
Main Entry: die &#8194;[dahy] Show IPA/da&#618;/ Show Spelled
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: pass away; stop living
Synonyms: be no more, be taken, breathe one's last, cease to exist, conk, croak, decease, demise, depart, drop, drop off, drown, expire, finish, kick the bucket, perish, relinquish life, rest in peace, succumb, suffocate
Antonyms: be born, begin, live
Dear Trinitarians,
it time to accept Jesus death as you sacrifice for your sins and stop believinf in this silly 1/2 death 1/2 sacrifice which will never get you saved and plays right into Satans hands.
REJECT THE FALSE PAGAN TRINITY DOCTRINE
and get saved!!!
They have become so twisted in their thought process I don't think they can

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#49 Jul 10, 2012
man711 wrote:
<quoted text>
They have become so twisted in their thought process I don't think they can
Man711, Where was God The Father before he supposedly created his son? And was there ever a time when God was not Father?

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#50 Jul 10, 2012
MakesTheTruthHisOwn wrote:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 is right when it sais that the dead are conscious of nothing at all but it leaves out a crucial point. how "long" this state lasts for.
I believe that Jesus set the presidency for the answer to the above when he was resurrected after "3" days. The "3" days is not just an arbitrary number chosen out of the blue but it is a divine mandate as to how long an individual is placed in this "sleep" state before being resurrected.
There is no contradiction here as to the dead being conscious of nothing at all and the resurrection hope of life after death in spirit form. The only difference between both views is the gap of "time" that is most overlooked in scripture.
The "40" days after Jesus baptism is another example of people reading the text but not understanding that the "40" days is not an arbitrary number but, yet again, was set as a divine mandate across the ages of creation long before we ever came to be.
If you can believe that its possible that the relationship of periods of time in the scriptures are not just numbers picked out of the blue but "mean" something then both parties can start to bridge the gap between the two understandings of death and come to realize that both are right in their own sense.
You do understand Ecclesiastes, and the format in which Solomon wrote the book? Its a point-counterpoint format. The whole book is a type of back-and-forth dialogue between true faith in God, and skepticism of God and eternity. In fact, one finds the phrase "under the sun" used 29 times in Ecclesiastes, which is a phrase referring to this earthly life. In context, the first part of this chapter deals with eternity FROM A SKEPTICS STANDPOINT!

When reading Ecclesiastes, it is very vital to understand the subject matter and the theme. Reading through its 12 chapters, one finds 2 points of view presented, a Godly point of view, and an ungodly and skeptical point of view, with the Godly perspective winning out in the end (12:1, 13-14). Unfortunately for the JWs, it is the ungodly, skeptical point of view that is being presented in chapter 9, and by not reading the surrounding verses, they have used a portion of a Scripture to "prove" their doctrine, which in reality, was written to show the OPPOSING view-point.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#51 Jul 10, 2012
JWs have isolated one small phrase ("the dead know not any thing") from this verse to prove their point, but they have neglected to read the rest of the verse. If they had, they would see that it teaches us that people who have died, have no more reward, and their memory is forgotten. JWs themselves disagree with this, as they believe in a resurrection of the dead. They also believe that Jehovah God has those righteous ones who have died "in His memory". But, according to this verse, that is not so. Let's read on.

verse 6- "Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished: NEITHER HAVE THEY ANY MORE A PORTION FOR EVER IN ANY THING THAT IS DONE UNDER THE SUN."

According to this verse, the love, hatred, and envy of the deceased person is gone forever (compare with 1 Cor. 13:8,13). Not only that, but he has no hope of any future reward. Notice...."Neithe r have they any more a portion FOR EVER in any thing that is done under the sun."

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#52 Jul 10, 2012
Nomi wrote:
Not if they hang on to the Trinity.
JW's are certainly not saved. The bible tells us that there is only ONE true God, but according to your masters in Brooklyn there are many.

I understand that you choose to follow the GB, but I will Follow Jesus and What the bible tells me.
MakesTheTruthHis Own

Montréal, Canada

#53 Jul 10, 2012
Kevin 321 wrote:
JWs have isolated one small phrase ("the dead know not any thing") from this verse to prove their point, but they have neglected to read the rest of the verse. If they had, they would see that it teaches us that people who have died, have no more reward, and their memory is forgotten. JWs themselves disagree with this, as they believe in a resurrection of the dead. They also believe that Jehovah God has those righteous ones who have died "in His memory". But, according to this verse, that is not so. Let's read on.
verse 6- "Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished: NEITHER HAVE THEY ANY MORE A PORTION FOR EVER IN ANY THING THAT IS DONE UNDER THE SUN."
According to this verse, the love, hatred, and envy of the deceased person is gone forever (compare with 1 Cor. 13:8,13). Not only that, but he has no hope of any future reward. Notice...."Neithe r have they any more a portion FOR EVER in any thing that is done under the sun."
The scripture in Ecclesiastes is speaking from the viewpoint of a man in reference to the righteous person vs the unrighteous ( the similarity of death between them).Verse 1 "So I reflected on this..." He was reflecting on the folly of the fact that righteous or not they both share a common destiny verse 2.

People that die have no "more" reward in heaven because their activity on earth ceases. Their memory is forgotten from the standpoint of the persons knowing them and having lived with them. This obviously is not the case with our Heavenly Father. No where in the verse is a reference made to how God feels about this situation and His standpoint; This is all a warring within Solomon himself in his contemplation of the points he mentioned namely that the good and evil both share the same destiny - death.

I don't see where we differ in opinion here? I don't see where the witnesses have missed anything.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#54 Jul 10, 2012
MakesTheTruthHisOwn wrote:
<quoted text>
The scripture in Ecclesiastes is speaking from the viewpoint of a man in reference to the righteous person vs the unrighteous ( the similarity of death between them).Verse 1 "So I reflected on this..." He was reflecting on the folly of the fact that righteous or not they both share a common destiny verse 2.
People that die have no "more" reward in heaven because their activity on earth ceases. Their memory is forgotten from the standpoint of the persons knowing them and having lived with them. This obviously is not the case with our Heavenly Father. No where in the verse is a reference made to how God feels about this situation and His standpoint; This is all a warring within Solomon himself in his contemplation of the points he mentioned namely that the good and evil both share the same destiny - death.
I don't see where we differ in opinion here? I don't see where the witnesses have missed anything.
They missed quite alot.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
New King James Version (NKJV)

7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
MakesTheTruthHis Own

Montréal, Canada

#55 Jul 10, 2012
Kevin 321 wrote:
<quoted text>
They missed quite alot.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
I'm still missing the argument? They believe the same as you do still.
MakesTheTruthHis Own

Montréal, Canada

#56 Jul 10, 2012
Sorry I don't mean to be rude Kevin but the Witnesses differ on many things I want to be clear that were not just creating a difference unnecessarily where there really isn't one in this case. What message is Solomon trying to confer to us in Eccl. where the difference in opinion lies?
MakesTheTruthHis Own

Montréal, Canada

#57 Jul 10, 2012
A Witness can jump in here too if they see it cause I'm confused :)

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#58 Jul 10, 2012
Nomi wrote:
Not if they hang on to the Trinity.
The Trinity is a doctrine... it does not mean that they do not put their faith in GOD and Christ..
man711

United States

#59 Jul 10, 2012
JesusMyKing wrote:
<quoted text>
Man711, Where was God The Father before he supposedly created his son? And was there ever a time when God was not Father?
Read your bible for the answer. If its not in there I don't have an answer.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#60 Jul 10, 2012
MakesTheTruthHisOwn wrote:
Sorry I don't mean to be rude Kevin but the Witnesses differ on many things I want to be clear that were not just creating a difference unnecessarily where there really isn't one in this case. What message is Solomon trying to confer to us in Eccl. where the difference in opinion lies?
The JWs believe that at death, that is it. No soul, at least not as we understand it to be. They believe at death, the soul knows nothing. They use Ecclesiates 9:5 to prove this point.

I have seen you mention something about a 3 day waiting period, I am not a student of the Urantia book, but are there any Biblical verses to back this statement? I know Orthodox Jews believed the soul hangs around the body of the deceased for 3 days, but I have yet to see that in scripture.
MakesTheTruthHis Own

Montréal, Canada

#61 Jul 10, 2012
Kevin 321 wrote:
<quoted text>
The JWs believe that at death, that is it. No soul, at least not as we understand it to be. They believe at death, the soul knows nothing. They use Ecclesiates 9:5 to prove this point.
I have seen you mention something about a 3 day waiting period, I am not a student of the Urantia book, but are there any Biblical verses to back this statement? I know Orthodox Jews believed the soul hangs around the body of the deceased for 3 days, but I have yet to see that in scripture.
The Urantia book goes into greater detail of Jesus resurrection, in as much it shows the reasons why Jesus was asleep for this period of time. 3 days was no coincidence, in fact, its a heavenly mandate as to how long minimum one much sleep for before the preparation is complete to resurrect a being.

The cross reference cannot be made in simple biblical texts my friend but the bridge between these written works has shown me some very interesting things.

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