What are the WEAKEST and WORST apostate arguments?

[Truth Speaker]

As I'm sure most thinking persons know apostates have a knack for presenting the most illogical reinterpretations of the Bible (see E-Watchman and his associates), the worst misrepresentations of what JW's actually teach (Marvin Shilmer and Don Cameron), and the weakest of arguments and the most boring cut-and-paste repetitious dung gathered and scooped from Ray Franz and numerous apostate websites.

So let's have a thread for exposing and laughing at the weakest and worst apostate arguments.

[Truth Speaker]

As demonstrated thoroughly in this thread entitled: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Are JW's/WTBTS directed by the holy spirit?

The notoriously belligerent and senseless opposer Uncahined wrote and I quote

UNchained wrote:

If Holy Spirit directs the Organization why do the doctrines change?

This one of, if not the most, hammered and repeated arguments of apostates. They will cut and paste long lists of wrong teachings JW's had or post quotations from our publications that later proved to be false, all in an effort to undermine our faith in God's organization. So how were these claims dealt with? Were the apostates' most beloved arguments actually of merit and strong scriptural backing? Let's see.

[Bookman_]

please, by all means, SHOW us the lies found in Don Camerons and Ray Franz books. Im more than interested to see this.

paragraph and page number please.

[Truth Speaker]

Thirdwitness wrote:

1 Samuel 16:13 says of David when anointed as king: "the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon David from that day forward." (NAS)
Simple Question:
Was David directed by holy spirit?

To which Unchained responded: Of course he was and when he messed up it was recorded in the bible.

Which so effortlessly and so fundamentally refuted this entire line of reasoning with one simple statement by the individual who STARTED the preposterous thread.
[QUOTE who="Thirdwitness]So then it is false to claim that because someone makes mistakes then they cannot be directed by holy spirit.

This means that the following statement is false: "IF the Holy Sprit was really directing the WTBTS/JW organization there would be no mistakes"[/QUOTE]
Indeed. The weak and terrible reasoning of opposers refuted so easily with just one scripture.

[An Observer]

Truth Speaker wrote:

As demonstrated thoroughly in this thread entitled: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Are JW's/WTBTS directed by the holy spirit?

The notoriously belligerent and senseless opposer Uncahined wrote and I quote
This one of, if not the most, hammered and repeated arguments of apostates. They will cut and paste long lists of wrong teachings JW's had or post quotations from our publications that later proved to be false, all in an effort to undermine our faith in God's organization. So how were these claims dealt with? Were the apostates' most beloved arguments actually of merit and strong scriptural backing? Let's see.

How can you put faith in an organization that once taught doctrine to be the truth and changes it's mind? It's like a child constantly changing stories because he lied.
How can you believe what is taught today and change in 5-10 years?
The term "the light gets brighter" is just an excuse for their lies.

[Bookman_]

Truth Speaker wrote:

As demonstrated thoroughly in this thread entitled: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Are JW's/WTBTS directed by the holy spirit?
The notoriously belligerent and senseless opposer Uncahined wrote and I quote <quoted text>
This one of, if not the most, hammered and repeated arguments of apostates. They will cut and paste long lists of wrong teachings JW's had or post quotations from our publications that later proved to be false, all in an effort to undermine our faith in God's organization. So how were these claims dealt with? Were the apostates' most beloved arguments actually of merit and strong scriptural backing? Let's see.

so lets say i give you that this argument is weak, that is the argument of ONE person.

to lump all "apostate" arguments together because some "apostates" make weak arguments is a text book fallacy.

that would be like lumping all the clown JW's on this board that defend pedophiles and saying that all JW's defend pedophiles.

nice try though.

anyway, the page and paragraph that the lies in Don Cameron and Ray Franz's books is what?

[Truth Speaker]

Reformatted

Thirdwitness wrote:

So then it is false to claim that because someone makes mistakes then they cannot be directed by holy spirit.

This means that the following statement is false: "IF the Holy Sprit was really directing the WTBTS/JW organization there would be no mistakes"

Indeed. The weak and terrible reasoning of opposers refuted so easily with just one scripture.

Bookman_ wrote:

please, by all means, SHOW us the lies found in Don Camerons and Ray Franz books. Im more than interested to see this. paragraph and page number please.

I don't have time to list out and name all the false erroneous and misleading statements Don Cameron and Ray Franz used. But I'll show you just one for all to see, and you can read the other threads for yourself.

Cameron writes on page 17:

"Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the Watchtower Society received that appointment in the spring of 1919 in fulfillment of the most important Scripture in Watchtower theology—Matthew 24:45-47."

This is a misleading and false statement because
1. JW's believe "All Scripture is inspired of God" therefore there is no ONE most important scripture in our theology as they are all equally inspired of God.

2. JW's have never stated that this is our most important teaching/doctrine/belief. In fact, the November 1st 1991 Watchtower on page 23 says: Ask yourself: Why would the Bible only “imply” its most important teaching—WHO GOD IS? The Bible is clear on other basic teachings; why not on THIS, THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE?

Don Cameron, from the very beginning of his book is already perpetrating lies and misleadingly sly statements and even misrepresents what JW's teach and believe! THIS is the book people spent their hard earned money on?

[oppose deceivers]

Truth Speaker wrote:

<quoted text>
To which Unchained responded: Of course he was and when he messed up it was recorded in the bible.
Which so effortlessly and so fundamentally refuted this entire line of reasoning with one simple statement by the individual who STARTED the preposterous thread.
<quoted text>
Indeed. The weak and terrible reasoning of opposers refuted so easily with just one scripture.

David was a man, he sinned like all men do. Are you saying the ORG. sinned? The Spirit of God does not dwell where sin is , you must repent... David did... Does the ORG. see you place the Org, as a man, they must be accountable like a man.. otherwise your argumnment does not work...

[Truth Speaker]

Bookman_ wrote:

<quoted text>
so lets say i give you that this argument is weak, that is the argument of ONE person.
to lump all "apostate" arguments together because some "apostates" make weak arguments is a text book fallacy.

However, I had not finished presenting my entire argument. My conclusion that apostates have nothing but weak, child-play, rhetorically ridiculous arguments was not based on this ONE thread. This was simply an EXAMPLE or a DEMONSTRATION of the typical arguments apostates use. But your hasty response and incorrect conclusion definitely shows alot about your character.

Bookman_ wrote:

anyway, the page and paragraph that the lies in Don Cameron and Ray Franz's books is what?

I've already posted an example of a lie in Don Cameron's book. Go here to see the information presented in Ray Franz's book proven inaccurate. http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

[Olin Moyle]

Interesting thread. I think the weakest "apostate" argument is that Russell was a Free Mason.

[Yknot]

Truth Speaker wrote:

As demonstrated thoroughly in this thread entitled: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Are JW's/WTBTS directed by the holy spirit?
The notoriously belligerent and senseless opposer Uncahined wrote and I quote <quoted text>
This one of, if not the most, hammered and repeated arguments of apostates. They will cut and paste long lists of wrong teachings JW's had or post quotations from our publications that later proved to be false, all in an effort to undermine our faith in God's organization. So how were these claims dealt with? Were the apostates' most beloved arguments actually of merit and strong scriptural backing? Let's see.

While I have no doubt seen exaggeration on this forum and it is very harmful indeed!

I agree our professing holy spirit backing at least since 1944 has been steadfast and unrelenting so too was it from 1879-1930. Our claim to 'hs' backing is as valid as any religion who claims the same.

Sometimes people just have to accept that different interpretation outside of their own exist in this system of things.

[Bookman_]

Truth Speaker wrote:

<quoted text>
However, I had not finished presenting my entire argument. My conclusion that apostates have nothing but weak, child-play, rhetorically ridiculous arguments was not based on this ONE thread. This was simply an EXAMPLE or a DEMONSTRATION of the typical arguments apostates use. But your hasty response and incorrect conclusion definitely shows alot about your character.
<quoted text>
I've already posted an example of a lie in Don Cameron's book. Go here to see the information presented in Ray Franz's book proven inaccurate. http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

you have claimed there are lies in Ray Franz and Don Camerons books, its on YOU to prove that.

Page and paragraph or you are in the clown category. its very simple, and if what you say is true and its so important to you that you have to make a post, then it should be no problem at all to simply post the page and paragraph of the lies. You can pick your favorite. Just give me ONE.

I have all the books in question so I can easily verify, so please stop the deflection tactics and give me the paragraph and page number of a lie from either of their books.

[Yknot]

Olin Moyle wrote:

Interesting thread. I think the weakest "apostate" argument is that Russell was a Free Mason.

eye-roll ......any of the conspiracy stuff!

[Bookman_]

Olin Moyle wrote:

Interesting thread. I think the weakest "apostate" argument is that Russell was a Free Mason.

I would agree with that, and I would add its hilarous that he decides to go after the apostates who are telling the truth like Franz and Cameron, but doesnt use what you just posted which is the EASIEST and WEAKEST "apostate" argument.

although I and about 80% of the apostate community not only ever made the argument, but will freely debunk it.

and its a prime example why its a fallacy to lump all "apostates" together.

[Yknot]

I hate when all Elders/MS/appointed servants are lumped all together and bashed.....

I know many good men and I can admit some guys can't handle the position with character or grace.

[Bookman_]

*not only never made the argument

[Daniel a Slave of Christ]

Any truth seeker that actually reads his/her bible would know that apostasy comes from leaving the body of Christ Jesus, and not the WTS. Secondly anyone one this forum claiming to be a WTS member makes themselves an apostate from the WTS teachings.

Thirdly the WTS judges all religions, but their own as apostates, pointing out their error in making false prophecy. Subsequently, any real truth seeker can simply find with little effort, all the WTS false perdition.

To play the victim and toss around the word apostate as some sort of biblical justification to cover up the WTS own public bad fruit is the equivalent of politics and propaganda for the unrighteous, instead of comparing themselves against the truth Christ Jesus.

Sadly the weak fleshly mind set of WTS members is believe they have the legal right to hate others by labeling them apostates, but their own judgment is coming swiftly

[Tao itness]

One of the weakest is saying the gentile times started at the destruction of the first temple when Jesus was clearly talking about the destruction in 70c.e. The apostates negate Christs words by twisting His straightforward meaning to back their false teachings.

[Tao itness]

Another is claiming to be Gods house. They are Gods people and the only ones to speak in the name of Jehovah,then applying Ezekiel 13 to Christendom. These stupid ,blind prophets speak in the name of Jehovah,stand among Gods people and wait for a word to come true. According to their own teaching it describes the Watchtower oracle,but refuse to be chastised by Yahweh so blame Chriatendom. Hypocritical apostates!

[Tao itness]

One of the most blasphemous is claiming salvation only comes to the annointed by means of Jesus and the great crowd gets salvation by assosiating with them and their organisation. Christ clearly said salvation only comes through Him. The rest are theives and plunderers. Thats what this golden calflike apostate org has proved to be. Claiming to be Christs brothers while trying to usurp His authority. Are judgemental and show a complete lack of love and work to amass wealth while not even lifting a finger to help the destitute among them ,saying:Keep warm and well fed!