Who Is Michael?
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Thirdwitness

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#1 May 2, 2007
WHO IS MICHAEL?

“And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.”—Daniel 12:1. This is said at the very end of the march of the world powers. There are several scriptures that tell us that to 'stand up' means taking up rulership or kingship.

Then Daniel 7 tells us exactly who it is that would gain rulership at the final part of the days when the world powers are coming to their end. Daniel 7:13  tells us,“I kept on beholding ..., and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; ...14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him."

Of course, we recognize the son of man to be Jesus himself. MIchael becomes King but Jesus also becomes king. Are their two different kings in heaven that will stand up in the final part of the days?

So in Daniel 12 we see that:

1. Michael 'stands up' at the end of the world powers in behalf of his people.

In Daniel 7 we see that:

Jesus gains rulership at the end of the world powers in behalf of his people.

But wait! There is more.

A Parallel is found in Matthew 24. Here Jesus is asked for a sign as to when Christ's presence would begin and the conclusion of the system of things. Verse 21 says: "for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again."

Amazing that at the time of Christ's presence and the conclusion of the system that the greatest tribulation in history of man will occur exactly as was stated in Daniel 12:1.

And so in Daniel 12 we have:

1. Michael 'stands up' at the conclusion of the system
2. And there occurs a 'time of distress such as has not been made to occur' ever.

In Matthew 24 we have:

1. At the time of Jesus' presence and the conclusion of the system
2.'there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred' ever.

Could it be that Michael is Jesus? Hmmm. But wait there is more.

Thirdwitness

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#2 May 2, 2007
Rev 12:7: "And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon,...9 So down the great dragon was hurled,...10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:“Now have come to pass ... the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ,"

Interesting that the very first prophecy in the Bible said: "15 And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”"

So it is clear that it would be the woman's seed, Jesus, who would crush Satan. That being the case why would the priviledge of ousting Satan from heaven (which is part of his downfall and the crushing) be given to another angel rather than Jesus?

And notice that Michael is spoken of as having a charge over the angels. Did you know that no other person other than Jehovah is spoken of as having authority of angels except Jesus.

Rev 12 tells us that:

1. Michael has authority over angels (no one else but Jesus has such authority).
2. Michael ousted Satan from heaven thus contributing to his crushing.

Many scriptures tell us that:

1. Jesus has authority over angels (no one else but Michael has such authority).
2. Genesis 3:15 tells us that Jesus, the seed would crush Satan.

But wait! There is more.

Jude 9 tells us:“But when Michael the archangel ....’”
1 Thess 4:16 tells us: "because the Lord (Jesus) himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice .... "

Archangel means chief of the angels. No where does the Bible speak of their being more than one archangel. There is only one chief of the angels. It is Michael. No wait, it must be Jesus because he has the archangel's voice. Thats two archangels. Oh, unless, could it be that they are the same person?

Jude 9 tells us that:

1. Michael is the archangel.

Thess 4:16 tells us that:

1. Jesus has an archangel's voice.

In view of all of the above Biblical evidence there can be no doubt whatsoever that Michael is Jesus.

“I don't know”

Since: Dec 06

Zagreb,Croatia

#3 May 2, 2007
You are so wrong, Michael is one of the chief angels, and in rev 12:11 it says that Michael and his angels won the battle by the blood of the lamb (Jesus), plus Michael couldn’t rebuke Satan Jesus could, and Jesus doesn't have an angels voice, 1 thess 4:16 is saying that Jesus' return is going to be announced by the archangels voice and the trump.

P.S is this your overwhelming evidence, Michael is mentioned like only a couple of times in the bible and you managed to pull a dogma out of that, quote me a verse where someone calls Jesus My lord and my Archangel and then I’ll believe you

“Gods love ... poured out”

Since: Dec 06

Sacramento

#4 May 2, 2007
thirdwitness said: "In view of all of the above Biblical evidence there can be no doubt whatsoever that Michael is Jesus."

That is strange, I not only have doubts, I flatly deny that Jesus is Michael.

thirdwitness has used several logical fallacies above.

Sample: "There are several scriptures that tell us that to 'stand up' means taking up rulership or kingship."

Sometimes standing means taking "up rulership or kingship" Therefore if Michael stands up he is "king".

Then: "Daniel 7:13 tells us,“I kept on beholding ..., and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming;"

So, someone like "A SON OF MAN" is coming, therefore since Jesus is also referred to as "son of man" Jesus MUST be the same one spoken of in Daniel.

There is more, but I think it is just too absurd to go on.
ETA KARINAE

Brooklyn, NY

#6 May 2, 2007
NOW, you have to remember that the original truth was given to Russell by JESUS him-self in "THE FINISHED MYSTERY" A MASTERPIECE: a work done with extraordinary skills: a supreme intellectual or artistic achievement: JESUS said on page 188 MICHAEL is the pope of ROME. I though YOU knew that?
Jude 3

Durham, NC

#7 May 2, 2007
ETA: Again, you are absolutely correct! & this teaching which did not pass the test for the right kind of food at the right time in 1919, along with all the other ABSURDITIES the WT was teaching then, disqualify them for even consideration, much less appointment as the F&D slave. Virtually none of what they taught then is taught today; it was false - LIES! Yet according to them, they are still God's only F&DS organization & we must follow them for our salvation. What junk & crap! CAPTIVES OF A CONCEPT; available online.
ETA KARINAE

Brooklyn, NY

#8 May 2, 2007
Jude 3 wrote:
ETA: Again, you are absolutely correct! & this teaching which did not pass the test for the right kind of food at the right time in 1919, along with all the other ABSURDITIES the WT was teaching then, disqualify them for even consideration, much less appointment as the F&D slave. Virtually none of what they taught then is taught today; it was false - LIES! Yet according to them, they are still God's only F&DS organization & we must follow them for our salvation. What junk & crap! CAPTIVES OF A CONCEPT; available online.
THIS is my next project JUDE3 to read that book. I have learned so much from reading ALL of your POST and from other TRUE CHRISTIANS.
Thirdwitness

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#9 May 3, 2007
-brian- wrote:
You are so wrong, Michael is one of the chief angels, and in rev 12:11 it says that Michael and his angels won the battle by the blood of the lamb (Jesus),
Typical misleading and inaccurate information. Read the verses again:

7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled ...“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death."

It did not say that Michael and his angels 'won the battle by the blood of the lamb'. It says that those on earth who follow Christ and witness about him conquered Satan by the blood of the lamb.

Not that your point would matter anyway. Its nothing but a meaningless diversionary tactic.
Thirdwitness

AOL

#10 May 3, 2007
-brian- wrote:
plus Michael couldn’t rebuke Satan Jesus could, and
More misleading and unfactual information. The Bible does not say that Michael 'couldn't rebuke Satan'. Read the verses again:

Jude 9: "9 But when Mi´cha·el the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he DID NOT DARE to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said:“May Jehovah rebuke you.”

Notice it does not say that Michael 'couldn't rebuke Satan as Brian contends. Do you expect us to believe that Michael 'couldn't rebuke Satan' about Moses but he could cast him out of heaven? Your statement is false and your reasoning is shown by the Bible to be illogical and absurd.
Thirdwitness

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#11 May 3, 2007
borgfree wrote:
thirdwitness said: "In view of all of the above Biblical evidence there can be no doubt whatsoever that Michael is Jesus."
That is strange, I not only have doubts, I flatly deny that Jesus is Michael.
Well that is easy to see why this would be the case. You are so consumed with discrediting JWs that reasoning, logic, and scripture must take a back seat to that obsession.
Thirdwitness

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#12 May 3, 2007
borgfree wrote:
Sometimes standing means taking "up rulership or kingship" Therefore if Michael stands up he is "king".
Then: "Daniel 7:13 tells us,“I kept on beholding ..., and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming;"
So, someone like "A SON OF MAN" is coming, therefore since Jesus is also referred to as "son of man" Jesus MUST be the same one spoken of in Daniel.
Thats it. Thats your rebuttal. Your are saying that Jesus is not the son of man mentioned in Daniel 7. And that Michael standing up has nothing to do with rulership.

Daniel 11 alone has several places showing that 'stand up' means take rulership.

3 “And a mighty king will certainly STAND UP and rule with extensive dominion ...

7 And one from the sprout of her roots will certainly STAND UP in his position,

20 “And there must STAND UP in his position one who is causing an exactor ....

21 “And there must STAND UP in his position one who is to be despised,..."

12:1 “And during that time Mi′cha·el will STAND UP..."

As for your Jesus is not the son of man argument. How obviously biased can you be? How transparent your agenda is?
Thirdwitness

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#13 May 3, 2007
borgfree wrote:
There is more, but I think it is just too absurd to go on.
No by all means, please go on. You are showing us very clearly that scripture and reason mean nothing. Jws just have to be wrong no matter what in spite of the scriptures not because of the scriptures.
Thirdwitness

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#14 May 3, 2007
As for the remainder of the comments made they have nothing to do with the subject and it is all a bunch of apostate rhetoric. What a surprise?
Thirdwitness

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#15 May 3, 2007
-brian- wrote:
quote me a verse where someone calls Jesus My lord and my Archangel and then I’ll believe you
I can quote you a scripture where Jesus denies and corrects people who try to say he is making himself equal to God.

How about you Quote me the word 'Trinity' in the Bible and I'll believe it.

“Gods love ... poured out”

Since: Dec 06

Sacramento

#16 May 3, 2007
Thirdwitness wrote:
<quoted text>
I can quote you a scripture where Jesus denies and corrects people who try to say he is making himself equal to God.
How about you Quote me the word 'Trinity' in the Bible and I'll believe it.
The words: organization, kingdom hall, ministry school, and many other Jehovah's witness accepted words are not in the Bible either.

I do not think theocratic, congregation overseer, circuit overseer, conventions, circuit assemblies, Bible studies, etc., etc. are found there.

The idea of Trinity/Triunity is found in the Bible.

“Gods love ... poured out”

Since: Dec 06

Sacramento

#17 May 3, 2007
Thirdwitness wrote:
<quoted text>
No by all means, please go on. You are showing us very clearly that scripture and reason mean nothing. Jws just have to be wrong no matter what in spite of the scriptures not because of the scriptures.
After over one hundred years of Jehovah's witnesses being consistently WRONG in their interpretation of scripture, you are right, I accept none of their interpretations.
Jude 3

Durham, NC

#18 May 3, 2007
So what? Per your own argument, quote us the words 'organization, theocracy', & so many other terms the WT uses that are not in the Bible either. Your comments show that the bottom line with you is whether or not someone agrees with you & the WT; such is your faulty standard of judgment.

It's a comfort to know we only answer to God, not absurd JW's or their false borg.
Thirdwitness

AOL

#19 May 3, 2007
I use the various scriptures to prove Michael is Jesus. In return I get this:

1. Jesus is not the son of man.
2. Stand up does not mean take rulership.
3. Michael couldn't rebuke Satan.
4. Michael ousted Satan by the blood of Jesus.
5. And the usual apostate rhetoric.

WOW! I hope that those JWs who might have doubts are reading this. It is a classic example of apostates lack of scripture, reason, logic, and substance to support their views.
diogenes

Lewisville, TX

#20 May 3, 2007
borgfree wrote:
<quoted text>
The idea of Trinity/Triunity is found in the Bible.
The idea of the Trinity came from the orthodox church not the bible. You did not learn it on your own. If someone non biased like a Buddhist read the gospels. And then afterwards you asked them explain the relationship between the Father and the Son I can guarantee you that they would say that Jesus is the son of the Father. They would have absolutely no notion of some triune co-eternal, co-equal God.

“Gods love ... poured out”

Since: Dec 06

Sacramento

#21 May 3, 2007
diogenes wrote:
<quoted text>
The idea of the Trinity came from the orthodox church not the bible. You did not learn it on your own. If someone non biased like a Buddhist read the gospels. And then afterwards you asked them explain the relationship between the Father and the Son I can guarantee you that they would say that Jesus is the son of the Father. They would have absolutely no notion of some triune co-eternal, co-equal God.
I am sure you have been told this several times before, but I will repeat it again.

The early church took the idea of trinity for granted, although it was not called trinity. The Christians believed the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were all God.

It was when the heresy of Arius caused much trouble that the church convened a council to deal with the problem, resulting in the term "trinity"

Again, you have probably been told many times, there are many scriptures speaking of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the same manner, indicating they are all God.

Just the opposite of what you claim, if people read the Bible without the "help" of Watchtower literature or other Arian promotional literature, they could only arrive at the conclusion that the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Even if they did not come up with a word to describe it, such as trinity.

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