Natural Law and Meat
First Prev
of 20
Next Last

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#1 Nov 23, 2012
Natural Law and Meat
___

Premise 1: The Watchtower organization teaches that at no time has there been a biblical command forbidding the taking in of meat.[1]

Premise 2: Eating is a means of taking in meat.

Conclusion: Pre-flood humans were not prohibited from eating meat.

__________

If there is no biblical command pointedly forbidding the eating of meat then the question arises:

- Is there "natural law" that prohibited pre-flood humans from eating meat?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. The Watchtower, March 15, 1980, p. 31.

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#2 Nov 23, 2012
-

The subject of whether humans were prohibited from eating meat prior to the flood causes trouble for Watchtower’s blood doctrine.

- If humans WERE forbidden to eat meat prior to the flood it means the Noachian Decree to abstain from eating blood was nothing new in terms of eating blood, which would tend to support a notion that God has always held the substance of blood as sacred.

- If humans WERE NOT forbidden to eat meat prior to the flood it means the Noachian Decree to abstain from eating blood was something new, which would mean prior to the flood humans were already eating blood and God had no problem with it.

There are at least two logical arguments concluding that pre-flood humans were not prohibited from eating blood. One is found in the initial post of this thread. The second is found in an article on my blog.[1] Both these arguments contain at least one premise that is a Watchtower teaching. All other premises in these arguments are in the form of express biblical propositions.

God having no problem with pre-flood humans eating blood would mean He does not hold blood as a sacred substance but, rather, its use in the Noachian Decree is purely symbolic in nature and says nothing about the substance of blood itself.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1.“God gave Noah express permission to eat blood” available at: http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2011/03/god...
little lamb

Mentone, Australia

#3 Nov 23, 2012
Seeing as we can't live in the past..and can only live in the present..

and the command to Noah not to eat the flesh with its blood in it, is for all Noah's descendants...

and today the Christian congregation is under the commandment " To keep abstaining from...BLOOD..."

And Noah and we are permitted to eat meat..

Whats your point Marvin?

What does it matter if preflood they ate meat or not?
And how does that impact on a commandment we are given today?

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#4 Nov 23, 2012
-

From post 3[1]:
little lamb wrote:
Seeing as we can't live in the past..and can only live in the present..
and the command to Noah not to eat the flesh with its blood in it, is for all Noah's descendants...
and today the Christian congregation is under the commandment " To keep abstaining from...BLOOD..."
.
And Noah and we are permitted to eat meat..
.
Whats your point Marvin?
.
What does it matter if preflood they ate meat or not?
.
And how does that impact on a commandment we are given today?


Understanding biblical issues impinging contemporary use of blood to help save health and life provides better opportunity to learn God’s will regarding contemporary use of blood to help save health and life.

I’m of the impression you believe the Apostolic Decree to abstain from blood represents a prohibition on using benevolently donated blood for transfusion therapy to help save health and life. You hold this position yet I have not observed you (or anyone else) demonstrate where the Bible talks about donor blood as though blood from that source is what the Apostolic Decree is talking about.

The Noachian Decree required humans to abstain from eating blood obtained from slaughter and it required humans to abstain from killing humans. As it turns out, Christians are not required to abstain from DONATING their own life by suffering death to help another human being. If Christians can DONATE their LIFE in death without breaking the requirement to abstain from killing humans then why can’t Christians DONATE their BLOOD without breaking the requirement to abstain from blood?

The subject of pre-flood humans and whether they were prohibited from eating meat is an underpinning to Watchtower’s blood transfusion taboo. If this underpinning is unsound then it’s one more reason Watchtower should rethink its blood transfusion taboo.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 3: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
little lamb

Saint Albans, Australia

#5 Nov 24, 2012
As I stated previously the only blood that saves is the blood of Christ.

He is the one that has given his blood so that we may have everlasting life.

Thats why I asked you earlier , don't you believe that there is salvation in Jesus Christ blood.

because you should research what salvation means.

I suspect you don't know the salvation message.

2 Timothy 1 [10]" but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel."

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#6 Nov 24, 2012
-

From post 5[1]:
little lamb wrote:
As I stated previously the only blood that saves is the blood of Christ.
.
He is the one that has given his blood so that we may have everlasting life.
.
Thats why I asked you earlier , don't you believe that there is salvation in Jesus Christ blood.
because you should research what salvation means.
.
I suspect you don't know the salvation message.
.
2 Timothy 1 [10]" but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel."
My comments are not about salvation but, rather, preventing premature death. Salvation and preventing premature death are relevantly dissimilar subjects.

Though only the blood of Christ provides salvation it remains the case that an individual can donate the life in self-bloodshed to help prevent the premature death of another individual, and Jesus says it’s a fine thing.

Back to the subject at hand, given God’s act of having recorded and preserving His holy scriptures down to this very day, we should take advantage of this as an intentional act by God for us to look back and learn His will.

Reading and reasoning from what is found in holy scripture is not living in the past. It’s using the word of God to let it speak to you.

I have two questions:

- Is there a pointed biblical command forbidding pre-flood humans from eating of meat

- Is there "natural law" that prohibited pre-flood humans from eating meat?

How do you answer each, and can you prove your answer with reasoning that conforms to long-held conventions of logical construction and refutation?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 5: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
little lamb

Rye, Australia

#7 Nov 24, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
From post 5[1]:
<quoted text>
My comments are not about salvation but, rather, preventing premature death. Salvation and preventing premature death are relevantly dissimilar subjects.

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:
1. Post 5: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
No they are not..salvation is for today..Today is the day of salvation, today is the day to be saved"

Do you know what the word salvation means??

The Hebrew word for Salvation that is written in the Old Testament of the Word of God is " yeshuwah" and means literally "something saved" and abstractly "deliverance".

The Greek word for Salvation that is written in the New Testament of the Word of God is "soteria" and means literally the act of "physcial and moral rescue".

“For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”(Romans 6:23 av)

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#8 Nov 24, 2012
-

From post 7[1]:
little lamb wrote:
No they are not..salvation is for today..Today is the day of salvation, today is the day to be saved"
.
Do you know what the word salvation means??
.
The Hebrew word for Salvation that is written in the Old Testament of the Word of God is " yeshuwah" and means literally "something saved" and abstractly "deliverance".
.
The Greek word for Salvation that is written in the New Testament of the Word of God is "soteria" and means literally the act of "physcial and moral rescue".
.
“For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”(Romans 6:23 av)


little lamb,

Yes. I know what the word salvation means.
__________

Now, and getting BACK to the subject of THIS discussion:

I have two questions:

- Is there a pointed biblical command forbidding pre-flood humans from eating of meat

- Is there "natural law" that prohibited pre-flood humans from eating meat?

How do you answer each, and can you prove your answer with reasoning that conforms to long-held conventions of logical construction and refutation?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 7: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
little lamb

Rye, Australia

#9 Nov 24, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
From post 7[1]:
<quoted text>
little lamb,
Yes. I know what the word salvation means.
__________

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:
1. Post 7: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
Then if you know what salvation means..how come you promote the giving of blood by medical practitioners and not direct people to the blood of Christ that has been placed on the altar for a great salvation?

After all you are promoting this on a forum of Jehovah witnesses.

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#10 Nov 24, 2012
-

From post 9[1]:
little lamb wrote:
Then if you know what salvation means..how come you promote the giving of blood by medical practitioners and not direct people to the blood of Christ that has been placed on the altar for a great salvation?
.
After all you are promoting this on a forum of Jehovah witnesses.
I do both because I follow my Master, Jesus.

Didn’t you read that Jesus healed the sick AND placed his blood on the alter for our salvation? My Master did not refrain from offering immediate help where and when he could to those in need. He also did not refrain from dying for our ultimate salvation.

About Jehovah’s Witnesses and my work:

- Over 50,000 (50,000!!!) of Jehovah’s Witnesses have suffered premature death due to the Watchtower organization’s prohibition on blood transfusion. 50,000!!! The community of Jehovah’s Witnesses deserves to be healed of needless deaths due to a teaching that can’t stand the heat of reason.

- Of course Jehovah’s Witnesses also need the saving property of Christ’s precious blood. I share this message too.

__________

Now, and getting BACK to THIS discussion…

I have two questions:

- Is there a pointed biblical command forbidding pre-flood humans from eating of meat

- Is there "natural law" that prohibited pre-flood humans from eating meat?

How do you answer each, and can you prove your answer with reasoning that conforms to long-held conventions of logical construction and refutation?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 9: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
little lamb

Rye, Australia

#11 Nov 24, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
From post 9[1]:
<quoted text>
I do both because I follow my Master, Jesus.
Didn’t you read that Jesus healed the sick AND placed his blood on the alter for our salvation? My Master did not refrain from offering immediate help where and when he could to those in need. He also did not refrain from dying for our ultimate salvation.
About Jehovah’s Witnesses and my work:
- Over 50,000 (50,000!!!) of Jehovah’s Witnesses have suffered premature death due to the Watchtower organization’s prohibition on blood transfusion. 50,000!!! The community of Jehovah’s Witnesses deserves to be healed of needless deaths due to a teaching that can’t stand the heat of reason.
- Of course Jehovah’s Witnesses also need the saving property of Christ’s precious blood. I share this message too.
__________
Now, and getting BACK to THIS discussion…
I have two questions:
- Is there a pointed biblical command forbidding pre-flood humans from eating of meat
- Is there "natural law" that prohibited pre-flood humans from eating meat?
How do you answer each, and can you prove your answer with reasoning that conforms to long-held conventions of logical construction and refutation?
Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:
1. Post 9: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
No .. Your words " My Master did not refrain from offering immediate help where and when he could to those in need"

Don't you believe he is the same today?

do you believe Jesus is somehow different today then he was yesterday?

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#12 Nov 24, 2012
-

From post 11[1]:
little lamb wrote:
No .. Your words " My Master did not refrain from offering immediate help where and when he could to those in need"
.
Don't you believe he is the same today?
.
do you believe Jesus is somehow different today then he was yesterday?
Jesus asks believers to follow him. Following Jesus’ example of helping those in need in practical and spiritual terms is part of Christianity.

Don’t you take time to do good to those in need? If so, why? If not, why not?

Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as deserving of goodness as the next set of people. Don’t you agree? If so, then why do you object that I attempt to do good by helping these better understand the Watchtower organization’s blood transfusion taboo?

__________

Now I’m going to ask you of morality.

- Do you understand it’s rude to refuse answer to questions when you expect your own questions answered?

- Did you not read that we should treat our neighbors as we would be treated ourselves?

__________

Now, and getting BACK to THIS discussion…

I have two questions:

- Is there a pointed biblical command forbidding pre-flood humans from eating of meat

- Is there "natural law" that prohibited pre-flood humans from eating meat?

How do you answer each, and can you prove your answer with reasoning that conforms to long-held conventions of logical construction and refutation?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 11: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
little lamb

Rye, Australia

#13 Nov 24, 2012
Over 50,000 (50,000!!!) of Jehovah’s Witnesses have suffered premature death due to the Watchtower organization’s prohibition on blood transfusion. 50,000!

QUOTE

In sharp contrast to that statement the United States Congressional Record stated this some years ago: "The Centers for Disease Control has stated that the actual rate of hepatit[i]s may be well in excess of the official figure due to the failure of many physicians to report serum hepatit[i]s cases. The center estimates that as many as 35,000 deaths and 500,000 illnesses a year may be due to the presence of serum hepatit[i]s in blood for transfusions." This statement originates with the Centers for Disease Control, a conservative organization not associated with alarmist statements.

Why would there be a failure of physicians to report these hepatitis related deaths? If physicians have a motivation to not report serum hepatitis cases would there be even greater motivation not to report deaths in hospitals due to other complications related to blood transfusions?

we can all come up with statistics for and against blood transfusions..and the numbers I find beat your numbers.

"Patients who received blood transfusions had higher rates of heart attack, heart failure, stroke, and even death." -Duke Med News Oct 8. 2007

And here is something they do know

However statistics on the number of ABO transfusion errors are known."For more than 25 years, ABO transfusion errors in the United States have caused more noninfectious transfusion deaths each year than any other cause. The US ABO error rate is between 1:12,000 and 1:19,000, with a fatality rate between 1:800,000 and 1:1.3 million.” Kathleen Sazama, Md, JD.(Dr. Sazama is president-elect of the Society for the Advancement of Bloodless Medicine - the world's leading association of Bloodless Medicine Professionals.)

Shall I share with you why blood transfusions are such a risk

Because each persons blood is unique to the person..and very few people are 'holy' people..To be 'holy' means to have been sanctified by Gods spirit..because the blood carries toxins and waste products to the liver and kidneys for cleansing out of the system, plus virus's, drugs, parasites of that persons life style.

There has only been one person Holy enough to present his BLOOD for our salvation...Jesus Christ
little lamb

Australia

#14 Nov 24, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
From post 11[1]:
<quoted text>
Jesus asks believers to follow him. Following Jesus’ example of helping those in need in practical and spiritual terms is part of Christianity.
Don’t you take time to do good to those in need? If so, why? If not, why not?
Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as deserving of goodness as the next set of people. Don’t you agree? If so, then why do you object that I attempt to do good by helping these better understand the Watchtower organization’s blood transfusion taboo?
__________
Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:
1. Post 11: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
To keep abstaining from BLOOD is not a watchtower exclusive..its scriptural

And I don't believe one can love God or his fellow man by disobeying Gods commandment.

Once you know the risk of blood transfusion , you would be very presumptuous to think you were giving anything that was 'perfect' to another human being..you would be putting another person at risk because of your assumption

whereas if you were really doing what you are supposed to be doing as a witness of Jehovah, you would be teaching all men everywhere to be in UNION with CHRIST JESUS

Because everyone in UNION WITH CHRIST , is a NEW CREATION

And we know from what god says in his creating a new heavens and a new earth, that in his new Jerusalem that he is creating " no infant will leave that place and not fulfill his years"

thats whats entailed in teaching union with Christ..which the watchtower has gone off track and preach unity with itself..so no wonder infants are dying from that place, and they are having all this backlash..because of not sticking with the WORD.

They have lost the plot.

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#15 Nov 24, 2012
-

From post 13[1]:
little lamb wrote:
…we can all come up with statistics for and against blood transfusions..and the numbers I find beat your numbers.


Risk assessment is properly done on a patient-to-patient basis. When the realistic choice is to accept transfusion of blood at risk of pathogens versus dying from anemia then the value of blood transfusion is readily evident. Either way, it’s the patient who deserves to make that choice rather than a religion forcing it upon them under pain of harsh shunning over a doctrine that is untenable.
little lamb wrote:
Shall I share with you why blood transfusions are such a risk
.
Because each persons blood is unique to the person..and very few people are 'holy' people..To be 'holy' means to have been sanctified by Gods spirit..because the blood carries toxins and waste products to the liver and kidneys for cleansing out of the system, plus virus's, drugs, parasites of that persons life style.
Do you know how many lives have been saved due to folks donating their blood to help save those lives? Every invasive therapy carries risk. This is why physicians make a risk-to-benefit assessment.

All our organs are unique to each person. So what? Are you AGAINST organ transplantation for THAT reason? If so, why? If not, why not?
little lamb wrote:
There has only been one person Holy enough to present his BLOOD for our salvation...Jesus Christ
But then, what I’ve written in this discussion is not about salvation but, rather, helping to save people from needless sickness and premature death.

__________

Who is YOUR master?

My Master taught me I should treat others as I want to be treated. Do you and I have the same Master? Or, do you have another master?

Why do you expect me to answer your questions of me yet you do not answer my questions of you?

__________

I have two questions:

- Is there a pointed biblical command forbidding pre-flood humans from eating of meat

- Is there "natural law" that prohibited pre-flood humans from eating meat?

How do you answer each, and can you prove your answer with reasoning that conforms to long-held conventions of logical construction and refutation?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 13: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#16 Nov 24, 2012
-

From post 14[1]:
little lamb wrote:
To keep abstaining from BLOOD is not a watchtower exclusive..its scriptural
Right. But what the Apostolic Decree to abstain from blood MEANS is something exclusive to Watchtower teaching.
little lamb wrote:
And I don't believe one can love God or his fellow man by disobeying Gods commandment.


I do not contend that anyone should disobey any commandment of God.

I contend that humans should apply well known and accepted conventions of logical construction and refutation to what the Bible ACTUALLY says in order to form SOUND conclusions of what various passages MEAN. This is known as REASONING from the scriptures.
little lamb wrote:
Once you know the risk of blood transfusion , you would be very presumptuous to think you were giving anything that was 'perfect' to another human being..you would be putting another person at risk because of your assumption


What assumption have I made? Name it.

What presumption have I made? Name it.
little lamb wrote:
whereas if you were really doing what you are supposed to be doing as a witness of Jehovah, you would be teaching all men everywhere to be in UNION with CHRIST JESUS
Because everyone in UNION WITH CHRIST , is a NEW CREATION


Jesus does not teach us to do ONE thing and ONE THING ONLY.

My Master teaches me that if I shut my door to practical NEEDS of my brothers and neighbors that the love of God no longer remains in me. Do you and I have the same Master?

One practical NEED for Jehovah’s Witnesses is to know Watchtower’s blood doctrine for what it teaches, and what the Bible says and does not say on the subject.

__________

I have two questions:

- Is there a pointed biblical command forbidding pre-flood humans from eating of meat

- Is there "natural law" that prohibited pre-flood humans from eating meat?

How do you answer each, and can you prove your answer with reasoning that conforms to long-held conventions of logical construction and refutation?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 14: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
little lamb

Australia

#17 Nov 24, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-

But then, what I’ve written in this discussion is not about salvation but, rather, helping to save people from needless sickness and premature death.
__________

__________

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:
1. Post 13: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
again we can get nowhere because of your lack of knowledge on what 'salvation' means.

i can't believe that you claim to be a Christian and yet make such a statement

"But then, what I’ve written in this discussion is not about salvation but, rather, helping to save people from needless sickness and premature death.'

Thats what salvation is..saving us from sin and the effects of sin...sickness and disease.

If you don't realize thats exactly what Jesus has accomplished for us...even more everlasting life..and life in abundance, no wonder you are looking to science for the answers.

do you read those scripture and skip over them or something?

as Ecclesiastes states

' Do not be wicked over much , nor become foolish , why should you die before your time"

a people in a covenant relationship with Jehovah come under his protection..don't you believe that??
little lamb

Australia

#18 Nov 24, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
From post 14[1]:

I do not contend that anyone should disobey any commandment of God.
I contend that humans should apply well known and accepted conventions of logical construction and refutation to what the Bible ACTUALLY says in order to form SOUND conclusions of what various passages MEAN. This is known as REASONING from the scriptures.
<quoted text>
What assumption have I made? Name it.
What presumption have I made? Name it.
<quoted text>
Jesus does not teach us to do ONE thing and ONE THING ONLY.
My Master teaches me that if I shut my door to practical NEEDS of my brothers and neighbors that the love of God no longer remains in me. Do you and I have the same Master?
One practical NEED for Jehovah’s Witnesses is to know Watchtower’s blood doctrine for what it teaches, and what the Bible says and does not say on the subject.
__________
I have two questions:
- Is there a pointed biblical command forbidding pre-flood humans from eating of meat
- Is there "natural law" that prohibited pre-flood humans from eating meat?
How do you answer each, and can you prove your answer with reasoning that conforms to long-held conventions of logical construction and refutation?
Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:
1. Post 14: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
True God teaches us to give practical help to a brother, but at the same time he expresses the command " To keep abstaining from..Blood.."

and we are told " Not to rely on our own understanding but in all our ways take notice of him"

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#19 Nov 24, 2012
-

From post 17[1]:
little lamb wrote:
again we can get nowhere because of your lack of knowledge on what 'salvation' means.
.
i can't believe that you claim to be a Christian and yet make such a statement
.
"But then, what I’ve written in this discussion is not about salvation but, rather, helping to save people from needless sickness and premature death.'
.
Thats what salvation is..saving us from sin and the effects of sin...sickness and disease.
.
If you don't realize thats exactly what Jesus has accomplished for us...even more everlasting life..and life in abundance, no wonder you are looking to science for the answers.
.
do you read those scripture and skip over them or something?
.
as Ecclesiastes states
.
' Do not be wicked over much , nor become foolish , why should you die before your time"
.
a people in a covenant relationship with Jehovah come under his protection..don't you believe that??
little lamb,

I’m sure you mean good. But it is extremely rude that you keep ignoring my questions of you while expecting me to answer your questions of me.

Why are you treating me so rudely? Why?

Of salvation… I do not disagree that salvation is about saving us from effects of sin, including sickness and disease.

But salvation in Christ does not keep a mother’s baby from dying or suffering needlessly due to anemia because its mother refused to accept transfusion of blood when that was the only viable remedy at hand.

Now,….

I have two questions:

- Is there a pointed biblical command forbidding pre-flood humans from eating of meat

- Is there "natural law" that prohibited pre-flood humans from eating meat?

How do you answer each, and can you prove your answer with reasoning that conforms to long-held conventions of logical construction and refutation?

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:

1. Post 17: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
little lamb

Rye, Australia

#20 Nov 24, 2012
Marvin Shilmer wrote:
-
From post 14[1]:
<quoted text>

<quoted text>
What assumption have I made? Name it.
What presumption have I made? Name it.
<quoted text>

__________

Marvin Shilmer
http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
__________
References:
1. Post 14: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-...
You presume that God can't save his people today..and therefore that medical practitioners who are starting to question the wisdom of blood transfusions are some how more knowledgeable then God.

You direct people to men to heal them

Whereas a King of Israel was allowed to die, because he searched out physicians and not Jehovah.

Therefore in presumption you leave off teaching union with Christ to , teach disobedience to a commandment, that doesn't need rocket science to know it means exactly what it says.

As God warns us " Become doers of the word , and not hearer only, deceiving yourselves with false reasonings."

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker
First Prev
of 20
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Jehovah's Witness Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News Victims 'told not to report' Jehovah's Witness ... 8 min Zildjian 4
Why JWs agree 100% with anything the WTS says! 18 min Bobby 70
Another REASON why the NWT is the best Bible ever! 47 min Newtonian 1,286
Are JWs Catholic? 1 hr BUDGIE 30
News Jehovah's Witnesses look in other direction 1 hr Spike 225
Why do you believe the bible is the infallible ... 2 hr Spike 159
Kingdom Hall / Hallway to Hell 2 hr Spike 29
JWs: can you please tell me something? 2 hr pcloadletter 189
WT must pay $4,000 a day. 2 hr Bobby 105
Help needed 4 hr ihveit 144
I think these passages point to soul immortalit... 5 hr PrufSammy 44
More from around the web