Paul says Jesus is Jehovah

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Since: Dec 07

central louisiana

#1915 Dec 1, 2012
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't agree with the view that death means extinction; that you become nothing.
if one is extent at death this verse makes no sense:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

HAVE? as in present tense? so if we go into nothing then we dont have eternal life.. why? because it would cease to exist and we would then need bo be recreated..

HEY WAIT thats what the jws believe.. they will be recreated.. they just dont realize that according to their writings THEY WILL NEVER LIVE AGAIN... and yes i can explain this one
will
Claude Kenneson

Crawfordville, FL

#1916 Dec 1, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
God told Adam, that the punishment for disobedience was death. But the serpent told the woman, that she wouldn't die, but that she would become like God. Who should we believe?
Do you no longer believe as your 2nd Watchtower president Rutherford that "Millions now living will never die"? Seems to me it is your religion that taught us that some will not physically die. Now, you tell us that this teaching comes from Satan?
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1919 Dec 2, 2012
Lord Jesus, please help my Witness friends to understand your Word, to know you as God and Saviour who died also for their sins. I know you love them very much, as they are precious souls to you! Open their eyes as they are enslaved to Satan and deliver them from the power of darkness and lead them into all truth – you are the Truth, the Way and the Life forever and ever. Amen!

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1920 Dec 3, 2012
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you no longer believe as your 2nd Watchtower president Rutherford that "Millions now living will never die"? Seems to me it is your religion that taught us that some will not physically die. Now, you tell us that this teaching comes from Satan?
Hi Claude,

As I have shown from the Scriptures, the great crowd of Rev 7:9 do not die. They come out of the great tribulation without dying, as the accounts never speak of their deaths, as those of the 144,000.

Rev 7:14-15, shows that they are to have God's tabernacle spread over them,

(NASB)14 I said to him,“My lord, you know.” And he said to me,“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

Rev 21:2-4 also describes how this event occurs, it will happen here on the earth.

2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying,“Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

Since: Jan 12

United States

#1921 Dec 3, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Claude,
As I have shown from the Scriptures, the great crowd of Rev 7:9 do not die. They come out of the great tribulation without dying, as the accounts never speak of their deaths, as those of the 144,000.
Rev 7:14-15, shows that they are to have God's tabernacle spread over them,
(NASB)14 I said to him, &#8220;My lord, you know.&#8221; And he said to me, &#8220;These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
Rev 21:2-4 also describes how this event occurs, it will happen here on the earth.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, &#8220;Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.&#8221;
ummmm, richard, nice side-step..... the ones rutherford told that to are dead.

secondly, the great crowd that stand before the throne having come OUT of the great tribulation are the completed number that joined with the last bunch to be taken up as paul mentioned in
1 thess 4;15-17.....afterward, we the living who are surviving will together with them meet the lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the lord..... they arrive at the throne of god for the marriage and then the priestly duties, the first resurrection.

your leadership are a bunch of liars, richard.... false prophets with a fake coming of jesus, and a fake "lord's day" that somehow appointed them to rule...... are you in a leadership position, richard?
Lannymac

New Iberia, LA

#1922 Dec 3, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
dee,
Is a fleshly physical human invisible?
How is it that God had to give Jesus permission to become visible, after his resurrection, if he was still in his fleshly physical body?
Acts 10:40-41
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
If your leaders permitted you entry into your old kingdom hall following a stint of disfellowship, would it be correct to say that they granted you permission to be seen/visible inside a kingdom hall?

OF COURSE!

I wish you people would start thinking before posting such lame arguments.

You're really starting to bore me.

Btw...will the WTS god grant permission to his created creature creator to become visible for paradise earthlings to see?

If not, why not?
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1923 Dec 3, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Claude,
As I have shown from the Scriptures, the great crowd of Rev 7:9 do not die. They come out of the great tribulation without dying, as the accounts never speak of their deaths, as those of the 144,000.
Rev 7:14-15, shows that they are to have God's tabernacle spread over them,
(NASB)14 I said to him,“My lord, you know.” And he said to me,“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
Rev 21:2-4 also describes how this event occurs, it will happen here on the earth.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying,“Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
What JWs cannot grasp is that the saints – the living at Jesus'[second] coming (the 144,000) and the dead in Christ who will be resurrected [at His second coming], which is called the great multitude or crowd– will be in heaven for 1,000 years (millennium). The holy city, New Jerusalem, will come down out of heaven from God at the close of the millennium and will remain here [on earth] forever and ever. This is Jesus' third [and last] coming! At the close of the millennium, when Christ comes third [last] time, will be the Judgement Day when Jesus will resurrect the wicked and reward them according to their work and will be destroyed in the lake of fire forever. As soon as this happens, the earth will be cleansed and made new, then and only then the saints (the 144,000 and the great crowd) will inherit the earth forever and ever.

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#1924 Dec 3, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
What JWs cannot grasp is that the saints – the living at Jesus'[second] coming (the 144,000) and the dead in Christ who will be resurrected [at His second coming], which is called the great multitude or crowd– will be in heaven for 1,000 years (millennium). The holy city, New Jerusalem, will come down out of heaven from God at the close of the millennium and will remain here [on earth] forever and ever. This is Jesus' third [and last] coming! At the close of the millennium, when Christ comes third [last] time, will be the Judgement Day when Jesus will resurrect the wicked and reward them according to their work and will be destroyed in the lake of fire forever. As soon as this happens, the earth will be cleansed and made new, then and only then the saints (the 144,000 and the great crowd) will inherit the earth forever and ever.
Rudi...

Will you tell us the reason for and why some believe that the wicked should or will be resurrected and then immediately be sentenced to an eternal death and detruction in Gehenna...?

Do you blieve that the wicked will be resurected and have their names written in the book of life...?

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1925 Dec 3, 2012
red blood relative wrote:
<quoted text>
ummmm, richard, nice side-step..... the ones rutherford told that to are dead.
secondly, the great crowd that stand before the throne having come OUT of the great tribulation are the completed number that joined with the last bunch to be taken up as paul mentioned in
1 thess 4;15-17.....afterward, we the living who are surviving will together with them meet the lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the lord..... they arrive at the throne of god for the marriage and then the priestly duties, the first resurrection.
your leadership are a bunch of liars, richard.... false prophets with a fake coming of jesus, and a fake "lord's day" that somehow appointed them to rule...... are you in a leadership position, richard?
RBR,

I'm not interested in what fallible men said 80 or 90 years ago.

I only discuss the Scriptures.

The ones that are changed in an instant and meet the Lord in the air, are the few last remaining ones of the "chosen", of Christ, of the 144,000, that are still alive during the last days.

(you wrote>) "the great crowd that stand before the throne having come OUT of the great tribulation are the completed number that joined with the last bunch to be taken up as paul mentioned in
1 thess 4;15-17"

The great crowd are never numbered in the Revelation. The account says that this group are unable to be numbered. The great crowd are said to be before the throne and come out of the great tribulation, when all of the goatlike ones of the nations are destroyed, and the ones on Jesus' right go directly into everlasting life. Compare Matt 25:31-32, and 46;

Matt 25:31-32 (NASB)“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

Jesus puts the goats on his left, and the sheep go on Jesus' right.

Matt 25:46 These (on the left) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous (on his right) into eternal life.”

Eternal punishment is death, and eternal life is the reward for remaining loyal to Jesus and his chosen spiritual brothers. This is the great tribulation that the unumbered great crowd come out of. There is never any mention of their dying and going to heaven.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1926 Dec 3, 2012
Lannymac wrote:
<quoted text>
If your leaders permitted you entry into your old kingdom hall following a stint of disfellowship, would it be correct to say that they granted you permission to be seen/visible inside a kingdom hall?
OF COURSE!
I wish you people would start thinking before posting such lame arguments.
You're really starting to bore me.
Btw...will the WTS god grant permission to his created creature creator to become visible for paradise earthlings to see?
If not, why not?
I present what the Scriptures say, and you scoff at it.

If Jesus was always visible, and anyone could have seen him as he traveled around the area for 40 days, why do the eyewitness accounts say that Jesus all of a sudden "appeared" in a locked room with them, and then would disappear?

John 20:19 (NASB)

19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them,“Peace be with you.”

Luke 24:31

31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight.
dee lightful

Piedmont, SC

#1927 Dec 3, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
I present what the Scriptures say, and you scoff at it.
If Jesus was always visible, and anyone could have seen him as he traveled around the area for 40 days, why do the eyewitness accounts say that Jesus all of a sudden "appeared" in a locked room with them, and then would disappear?
John 20:19 (NASB)
19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them,“Peace be with you.”
Luke 24:31
31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight.
You present more than scriptures for you also present the twisted, mis-translations of the WT.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1928 Dec 3, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
What JWs cannot grasp is that the saints – the living at Jesus'[second] coming (the 144,000) and the dead in Christ who will be resurrected [at His second coming], which is called the great multitude or crowd– will be in heaven for 1,000 years (millennium). The holy city, New Jerusalem, will come down out of heaven from God at the close of the millennium and will remain here [on earth] forever and ever. This is Jesus' third [and last] coming! At the close of the millennium, when Christ comes third [last] time, will be the Judgement Day when Jesus will resurrect the wicked and reward them according to their work and will be destroyed in the lake of fire forever. As soon as this happens, the earth will be cleansed and made new, then and only then the saints (the 144,000 and the great crowd) will inherit the earth forever and ever.
Rudi,

The "dead in Christ", are those "chosen of Christ" that have died, the 144,000. They are resurrected to heavenly life.(see Rev 6:11)

The great crowd are never mentioned to have died at all. They are said to be before the throne, and have just come out of the great tribulation here on the earth, where all of the goats on Jesus' left are eternally destroyed, and the sheep on his right go directly into eternal life. There is never any mention of their dying and going to heaven.

Rev 7:14-15, says that God is to spread his tabernacle over them. This event occurs here on the earth, as Rev 21:3-4 explains.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying,“Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

The great crowd aren't promoted to heaven as spirit persons for the thousand years, and then demoted back to earth to live as humans again. That makes no sense at all.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1929 Dec 3, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
At the close of the millennium, when Christ comes third [last] time, will be the Judgement Day when Jesus will resurrect the wicked and reward them according to their work and will be destroyed in the lake of fire forever. As soon as this happens, the earth will be cleansed and made new, then and only then the saints (the 144,000 and the great crowd) will inherit the earth forever and ever.
Rudi,

There is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. We know that the righteous will be resurrected to a resurrection of life.

But the unrighteous will be resurrected to a resurrection of judgement. Does that mean that God is going to resurrect them, to kill them all over again for what they did during their life?

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1930 Dec 3, 2012
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text> You present more than scriptures for you also present the twisted, mis-translations of the WT.
dee,

Please show us where I have used anything but the Scriptures. I am using a well accepted Protestant translation of God's Word, The NASB.
Claude Kenneson

Tallahassee, FL

#1932 Dec 3, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Claude,
As I have shown from the Scriptures, the great crowd of Rev 7:9 do not die. They come out of the great tribulation without dying, as the accounts never speak of their deaths, as those of the 144,000.
Rev 7:14-15, shows that they are to have God's tabernacle spread over them,
(NASB)14 I said to him,“My lord, you know.” And he said to me,“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
Rev 21:2-4 also describes how this event occurs, it will happen here on the earth.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying,“Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
So, Satan was right. "You shall not surely die." There are some, who will never die, you tell us. All the rest of sinners died, but not these sinners. If the "wages of sin is death," how do they escape it? Does tribulation take away sin?

If God is in heaven and the great crowd is on earth, how will God be AMONG them?
dee lightful

Piedmont, SC

#1933 Dec 3, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
dee,
Please show us where I have used anything but the Scriptures. I am using a well accepted Protestant translation of God's Word, The NASB.
You present your picks from many bibles but your comments of those scriptures is straight from the distortions of the WT.
. What kind of double talk is this, "But the unrighteous will be resurrected to a resurrection of judgement. Does that mean that God is going to resurrect them, to kill them all over again for what they did during their life?"
First you say the unrighteous will be resurrected for judgment so you know the unjust as well as the just will be resurrected....so why do you ask why when you should know that
Revelation 20:15(NASB)
15 And if [a]anyone’s name was not found written in (A)the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Claude Kenneson

Tallahassee, FL

#1934 Dec 3, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
There is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. We know that the righteous will be resurrected to a resurrection of life.
But the unrighteous will be resurrected to a resurrection of judgement. Does that mean that God is going to resurrect them, to kill them all over again for what they did during their life?
If the great crowd is going to go through the tribulation without dying, why would they need a resurrection?

“Close enough”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#1935 Dec 3, 2012
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
So, do you believe that the life on this side before death is not extinguished, but continues after death?
I believe one can be resurrected.
Claude Kenneson

Tallahassee, FL

#1936 Dec 3, 2012
miseracord wrote:
<quoted text> I believe one can be resurrected.
Tell me what you believe is resurrected when non existence means NO ONE.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1937 Dec 3, 2012
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
So, Satan was right. "You shall not surely die." There are some, who will never die, you tell us. All the rest of sinners died, but not these sinners. If the "wages of sin is death," how do they escape it? Does tribulation take away sin?
If God is in heaven and the great crowd is on earth, how will God be AMONG them?
Claude,

Those living in the time of the end that survive the great tribulation, have the possibility of never dying. Their inperfection and sins they have to cleanse by washing their existing robes (lives) in the blood of the Lamb.(Rev 7:14)

Those that have died in the past, will have to be resurrected back to life as humans on the earth.(John 5:28-29)

Rev 21 shows that God is to be with mankind in a figurative sense, as we can see;

Revelation 21:2, 22-24
New King James Version (NKJV)

2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Speaking further of this holy city;

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.

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