Paul says Jesus is Jehovah
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1694 Nov 24, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
Who is identified as the "Word of God"?
Who would you suppose God use to bring His most profound and important communications to humans?
Who would be the one to transmit the Law, that God gave to the nation of Israel?
Who would God use in speaking in a direct way to His faithful servants, such as Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, and many others?
Richard, I asked you a specific question but you didn't answer it.

Lets try again, please could you tell me where does it say in the Bible that Jesus WAS GIVEN THE AUTHORITY to SPEAK IN GOD'S NAME, to SPEAK FOR GOD or to APPEAR to man [DISGUISED] in HUMAN FORM as JEHOVAH, PRETENDING TO BE JEHOVAH?

You cannot answer it because it smells fishy!
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1695 Nov 24, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
You are running different paragraphs together in your effort to support your dogma. In your blind efforts, you are ignoring all that you know about proper written English and how it works.
Look at how the highly educated Greek scholars that have the highest training in languages possible, translate the Greek text into proper written English.
Revelation 1:4-8 Lexham English Bible (LEB)
4 John, to the seven churches in Asia: grace to you and peace from the one who is and the one who was and the one who is coming, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
If Jesus Christ is shown to be the "Alpha and Omega" and "the First and the Last", while the NWT also says that Jehovah God is the "Alpha and Omega" and "the First and the Last", then you, JWs, must either admit that Jesus Christ is the Almighty God, or else close your eyes to the Word.

Revelation 1:7-8 says it is someone "is coming". Who? Verse 7 says it is someone who was "pierced". Who was it that was pierced when he was nailed up to die? Jesus! But verse 8 says that it is Jehovah God who "is coming". Could it be that there are two who are coming? No! Verse 8 refers to "the One who...is coming".

Revelation 1:8 states clearly that Jehovah God is the Alpha and Omega. Now note what he says at Revelation 22:12-13: "'And, behold, I come quickly...I am Alpha and Omega,... the first and the last...'" So, Jehovah God is coming quickly. But notice the response when he says it again: "Surely I come quickly, Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (22:20, KJV)

The Alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet, while Omega is the last letter. Therefore, the "Alpha and Omega" means the same thing as "the First and the Last".

Who is speaking in Revelation 2:8? "...These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;" Obviously, it is Jesus. Who was Jesus identifying Himself as being, when He called Himself "the First and the Last"? This is how Almighty God described himself in the Old Testament. Jesus knew that the apostle John, who wrote the Revelation and later Bible readers would all remember these verses:

"...I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens:..." (Isaiah 48:12-13, KJV). And: "...I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." (Isaiah 43:10-11, KJV).

Note, too, that the expression the first and the last is used this way to refer to the Jehovah God in Revelation 22:13. "'I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.' Yet John also records: "...And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen;..." (Revelation 1:17-18, KJV)

So lets recap, we read in the NWT also that Jehovah God is the One who is coming, the One who is coming quickly, the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, and the only Saviour. We also read that our Saviour Jesus Christ is the One who is coming, the One who is coming quickly, the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.

If you have difficulty to believe that Jesus Christ is the Almighty God, please read Colossians 2:9: "because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily" (NWT) Or, according to the KJV, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1696 Nov 24, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
I’ll post this again, so you will understand where I’m at;
I now ask you, who was always known as “the Lord God of the holy prophets”?
Revelation 22:6 (NASB)
And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Wasn’t it the God of the Israelites, Jehovah, Jesus’ Father? Oh yeh, that’s right.
In Rev 22: 6 and 7, it doesn't say the angel is speaking of the Father.

Rev 22:12-13 (NASB)“12 Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward* is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Who is coming quickly? God the Father or Jesus Christ? The answer is, Jesus Christ (read 22:20).

Isaiah 40:10 (ASV), "Behold, the Lord Jehovah will come as a mighty one, and his arm will rule for him: Behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.", Isaiah 62:11: "11 Behold, Jehovah hath proclaimed unto the end of the earth, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him." Read also Mat. 16:27, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." (KJV) and Rev. 22:12, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." (KJV) Now, who is coming? God the Father and Jesus Christ or God the Father alone, or Jesus Christ? But according to the Scriptures is Jesus Christ (not God the Father) is the One who is coming and will reward every man according to their works!

PLEASE COULD YOU TELL ME WHY ARE YOU USING DIFFERENT TRANSLATIONS? YOU ARE USING THEM BECAUSE IT SUITS YOU? WHY DON'T YOU USE THE NWT? I THOUGHT IF YOU WERE A GOOD JW, YOU SHOULD!
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1697 Nov 24, 2012
Wolf 2 wrote:
Paul said: "The head of Christ is God" 1Cor.11:3
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." 1 Cor. 11:3, KJV

You, JWs, use this verse, too, in your attempt to deny the Deity of Christ. But this passage does not support Watchtower doctrine that Christ was an angel created by God. It simply shows that the principle of headship applies.

Within the human family, the head of the woman is the man. Does that mean that women are a lower form of life than men? Are women somehow inferior to men? Not at all! It is simply God's arrangement that someone act as head and He designed that role to man. Likewise within the Godhead – the Father acts as head without diminishing the full Deity of the Son.

Since: Jan 12

United States

#1698 Nov 24, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
RBR,

The holy spirit is not another person as you contend. There is one verse in the Scriptures where Jesus uses the word "comforter" to describe it, and the Greek word for it is in the masculine, and because it is masculine, you think in your confused mind it must be a person.
God's holy spirit is simply God's power, described as such many many times over and over in the Scriptures. And yes, God's holy spirit can be anywhere at any time that He directs it to be somewhere. It is just not a person, a third person of some imagined godhead that you have formulated in your confused mind.
gee, i keep saying there is ONE GOD and the holy spirit is yhwh in whatever form he wishes, while you swap it around claiming i contend its another person..... why are you doing tricky talk?

when the holy spirit shows up, its yhwh..... when yhwh's word personified shows up, its yhwh in another form..... they are both him.

you are just attempting to cause a division to form a following as jesus mentioned in matt 24;24.

when the comforter shows up, its not a abstract power, its god's personality making decisions.... its god yhwh, and no one else.

no one else but the father and his word and his spirit are yhwh.
anyone else who claims to be him is blashpeming.

Since: Jan 12

United States

#1699 Nov 24, 2012
i was listening to hebrews last night, on cd, all night as i slept.... i put it on repeat.

gosh, paul makes it absoulutely clear that jesus was not a free-willed angel..... the whole beginning of hebrews was all about that he definately was not just another angel appointed to bring a message.

but here we have the jw pr representatives trying to convince us jesus was just a high ranking angel.
.....so i was thinking, why would it be so important to deny the deity of jesus.

i'm guessing satan is trying to claim god forced some free willed angel to die for us, and so god is wicked.... just a guess.... there has got to be a wicked reason they push that, cause its satan pulling the strings on that doctrine of demons.

the truth is, god purchased us with his own blood, as he materialized in the form of a human, and went through hell for us..... god is our father and savior...... he didn't dump that assignment on anyone else..... his word that manifested in the flesh is him, yhwh.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1700 Nov 24, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
Richard, I asked you a specific question but you didn't answer it.
Lets try again, please could you tell me where does it say in the Bible that Jesus WAS GIVEN THE AUTHORITY to SPEAK IN GOD'S NAME, to SPEAK FOR GOD or to APPEAR to man [DISGUISED] in HUMAN FORM as JEHOVAH, PRETENDING TO BE JEHOVAH?
You cannot answer it because it smells fishy!
Rudi,

You say God's Word smells fishy?

Who do you suppose accomplished God’s messages and brought God’s people the Israelites to their promised land?

The Bible says it was the angel of God.

Exodus 14:19-20 (KJV)
19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.

Exodus 23:20-23

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

Back to your question.

The Bible says that an angel spoke for God, and that they should obey his voice. It also says that they followed this angel that was leading them, and at times the angel was following them to protect them as a rear guard.

The Bible says that it was an angel that Moses talked with in the mountain, at the burning bush and when he received to Law. This one spoke as if he was God himself.
(Ex 3:14-16)

Who Does the inspired apostle Paul say it was that did all of these things?

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 (KJV)
10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1701 Nov 24, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
If Jesus Christ is shown to be the "Alpha and Omega" and "the First and the Last", while the NWT also says that Jehovah God is the "Alpha and Omega" and "the First and the Last", then you, JWs, must either admit that Jesus Christ is the Almighty God, or else close your eyes to the Word.
Revelation 1:7-8 says it is someone "is coming". Who? Verse 7 says it is someone who was "pierced". Who was it that was pierced when he was nailed up to die? Jesus! But verse 8 says that it is Jehovah God who "is coming". Could it be that there are two who are coming? No! Verse 8 refers to "the One who...is coming".
Revelation 1:8 states clearly that Jehovah God is the Alpha and Omega. Now note what he says at Revelation 22:12-13: "'And, behold, I come quickly...I am Alpha and Omega,... the first and the last...'" So, Jehovah God is coming quickly. But notice the response when he says it again: "Surely I come quickly, Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (22:20, KJV)
The Alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet, while Omega is the last letter. Therefore, the "Alpha and Omega" means the same thing as "the First and the Last".
Who is speaking in Revelation 2:8? "...These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;" Obviously, it is Jesus. Who was Jesus identifying Himself as being, when He called Himself "the First and the Last"? This is how Almighty God described himself in the Old Testament. Jesus knew that the apostle John, who wrote the Revelation and later Bible readers would all remember these verses:
"...I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens:..." (Isaiah 48:12-13, KJV). And: "...I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." (Isaiah 43:10-11, KJV).
Note, too, that the expression the first and the last is used this way to refer to the Jehovah God in Revelation 22:13. "'I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.' Yet John also records: "...And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen;..." (Revelation 1:17-18, KJV)
So lets recap, we read in the NWT also that Jehovah God is the One who is coming, the One who is coming quickly, the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, and the only Saviour. We also read that our Saviour Jesus Christ is the One who is coming, the One who is coming quickly, the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.
If you have difficulty to believe that Jesus Christ is the Almighty God, please read Colossians 2:9: "because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily" (NWT) Or, according to the KJV, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
Rudi,
I answer your objections with the Bible each post. You in turn just ignore, even snip out what you don't want to see. So I'll post this again;

(to be continued)

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1702 Nov 24, 2012
(continued)

You are running different paragraphs together in your effort to support your dogma. In your blind efforts, you are ignoring all that you know about proper written English and how it works.

Look at how the highly educated Greek scholars that have the highest training in languages possible, translate the Greek text into proper written English.

Revelation 1:4-8 Lexham English Bible (LEB)

4 John, to the seven churches in Asia: grace to you and peace from the one who is and the one who was and the one who is coming, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To the one who loves us and released us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—to him be the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even every one who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Yes, amen.

8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, the one who is and the one who was and the one who is coming, the All-Powerful.

They show verse 7, as the end of the paragraph, speaking about Jesus.

They begin a new paragraph with verse 8, because there is a change of subject, namely,“the Lord God”, along with the identifier,“who is and who was and who is to come”, as stated from verse 4.

Using verse 11, To support your argument, is in vain. Everybody knows, that is a spurious phrase that is not found in any of the earlier Greek manuscripts, and just about all scholars reject that phrase at Rev 1:11.

It’s purpose is clear, to support the false Trinity dogma. But it has no support from the Greek text.

All of the rest of your post has no support, because it is based on the misconception that you have regarding those first five verses, namely Rev 1:4-8.

“By grace you have been saved”

Since: May 09

Fenwick, UK

#1703 Nov 24, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
Who do you suppose accomplished God’s messages and brought God’s people the Israelites to their promised land?
The Bible says it was the angel of God.
Exodus 14:19-20 (KJV)
19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

The Bible says that an angel spoke for God, and that they should obey his voice. It also says that they followed this angel that was leading them, and at times the angel was following them to protect them as a rear guard.

The Bible says that it was an angel that Moses talked with in the mountain, at the burning bush and when he received to Law. This one spoke as if he was God himself.
(Ex 3:14-16)
Who Does the inspired apostle Paul say it was that did all of these things?
1 Corinthians 10:1-4 (KJV)
10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
The Watchtower Society say that the Hebrew word 'malakh' literally means 'messenger,' such as a human ambassador or envoy of a King who represents the King.

The word 'malakh' has no inherent meaning of a specific type of 'messenger' such as a heavenly spirit creature like what we conceive of as an 'angel,' a term which evokes a very specific mental image of a traditional winged spirit creature.

So to use 'angel' as the default translation of 'malakh' introduces a mental concept level of interpretation which is not necessarily present in the Hebrew.

This can create a potential theological misunderstanding.

So, if we can agree between us that the Word of God is the 'messenger' of God the Father, rather than an 'angel,' we shall be nearer seeing eye to eye.
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1704 Nov 24, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
You say God's Word smells fishy?
Who do you suppose accomplished God’s messages and brought God’s people the Israelites to their promised land?
The Bible says it was the angel of God.
Exodus 14:19-20 (KJV)
19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.
Exodus 23:20-23
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
Back to your question.
The Bible says that an angel spoke for God, and that they should obey his voice. It also says that they followed this angel that was leading them, and at times the angel was following them to protect them as a rear guard.
The Bible says that it was an angel that Moses talked with in the mountain, at the burning bush and when he received to Law. This one spoke as if he was God himself.
(Ex 3:14-16)
Who Does the inspired apostle Paul say it was that did all of these things?
1 Corinthians 10:1-4 (KJV)
10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
I never said the Word of God smells fishy; however, what you are saying is dodgy, a lot of baloney, fishy.

"Who do you suppose accomplished God’s messages and brought God’s people the Israelites to their promised land?" According to the Bible it was Jesus Christ, who is God.

In Ex. 14 and 20 the Angel, once again, is God Himself who is Jesus Christ.

However, you still didn't answer my question.

Once again, my question is: where does it say in the Bible that Jesus WAS GIVEN THE AUTHORITY to SPEAK IN GOD'S NAME, to SPEAK FOR GOD or to APPEAR to man [DISGUISED] in HUMAN FORM as JEHOVAH, PRETENDING TO BE JEHOVAH? My only answer is: NOWHERE!

1 Corinthians 10:4

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (KJV)

"and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock&#8208;mass that followed them, and that rock&#8208;mass meant the Christ." (NWT)

Please could you tell me why the NWT renders this passage from 'rock' to 'rock-mass', and that 'rock was Christ' to that 'rock-mass meant Christ'? why did the WTS translators twist it?
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1705 Nov 24, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
I answer your objections with the Bible each post. You in turn just ignore, even snip out what you don't want to see. So I'll post this again;
(to be continued)
If you rejecting Jesus being the Almighty God in the Book of Revelation, then ou are ignoring the whole Bible.

But who is the One who is coming in Revelation? What does John say who is the One? JESUS CHRIST! Why? Because in Rev. 22:20 we read: "Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

Please note, John doesn't say: "Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Jehovah and Lord Jesus." Nor does it say: "Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Jehovah.", but it clearly says: "Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

Once again, in the whole Book of Revelation not once does John say that Jesus Christ is coming with Jehovah, or Jehovah is coming, but Jesus Christ!

In 1 Thes. 4:16 (KJV) we read: "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. This passage doesn't suggest either that Jesus is coming with Jehovah, but rather it says that Jesus is coming 'with the voice of the archangel' and 'with the trump of God'.

I am not interested what men tell me, I only believe what the Word of God tells me. I am only interested in men's writings if their comments agree with the Scriptures.

So, please open your eyes! Don't close your eyes to TRUTH!
dee lightful

Piedmont, SC

#1706 Nov 24, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
You say God's Word smells fishy?
Who do you suppose accomplished God’s messages and brought God’s people the Israelites to their promised land?
The Bible says it was the angel of God.
Exodus 14:19-20 (KJV)
19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.
Exodus 23:20-23
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
Back to your question.
The Bible says that an angel spoke for God, and that they should obey his voice. It also says that they followed this angel that was leading them, and at times the angel was following them to protect them as a rear guard.
The Bible says that it was an angel that Moses talked with in the mountain, at the burning bush and when he received to Law. This one spoke as if he was God himself.
(Ex 3:14-16)
Who Does the inspired apostle Paul say it was that did all of these things?
1 Corinthians 10:1-4 (KJV)
10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Where in the scripture does it say an angel spoke to Moses from the burning bush?
EX3:14-16 NIV
14 God said to Moses,“I am who I am.[a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites:‘I am(A) has sent me to you.’”
God also said to Moses,“Say to the Israelites,‘The Lord,[b] the God of your fathers(B)—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob(C)—has sent me to you.’
“This is my name(D) forever,
the name you shall call me
from generation to generation.(E)
16 “Go, assemble the elders(F) of Israel and say to them,‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob(G)—appeared to me and said: I have watched over you and have seen(H) what has been done to you in Egypt.
Footnotes:
Exodus 3:14 Or I will be what I will be
Exodus 3:15 The Hebrew for Lord sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for I am in verse 14.
.
It clearly and plainly states that it is God speaking to Moses. In the King James version when you see the terms God or I AM it is literaly speaking of God and not the spirit of God. When Moses asked of the burning bushing it responded with "I AM". This is God speaking and one reason why Moses was not able to look directly upon the burning. Even his eyes were not able to look upon the image in which God showed Himself as.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#1707 Nov 24, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." 1 Cor. 11:3, KJV
You, JWs, use this verse, too, in your attempt to deny the Deity of Christ. But this passage does not support Watchtower doctrine that Christ was an angel created by God. It simply shows that the principle of headship applies.
Within the human family, the head of the woman is the man. Does that mean that women are a lower form of life than men? Are women somehow inferior to men? Not at all! It is simply God's arrangement that someone act as head and He designed that role to man. Likewise within the Godhead – the Father acts as head without diminishing the full Deity of the Son.
Hi Rudi

Some questions and comments of mine regarding your above post:

(1)Does the word “head” mean subordination and/or authority over someone? If so? Does this not mean Christ is both subordinate and/or subject to the authority of the “Father”?

(2)Paul in this passage says “and the head of Christ is God” 1 Cor. 11:3(KJV). This passage does not say “Father” as you state but “God”---what does this imply?

(3)If Christ is subordinate? Does this not imply that Christ is not omnipresence or omnipotent and therefore not “God”?

Paul was considered the Apostle to the Gentiles and this verse was written some 2000 thousand years ago. It is my opinion that this verse was written on a level that was understood by the culture of the times. The culture was “Patriarchial” and the verse would be easily understood by Gentiles and Jews alike--- the people who needed to understand so that a foundation for the church could be built ----not for 21st century people who have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight. This quote about how things were understood during those times makes this verse easier to understand. http://www.historylink102.com/Rome/roman-fath...

”The Father in the Family
Families in Rome were paterfamilias. This means that the father had all the authority in the family. The father's authority was absolute. As long as the father was alive, he controlled all the property for the children and his wife. The father could even go as far as whipping his children, selling them into slavery, or even killing them if they did not obey his wishes. After the death of the father, the eldest son would take the role of the head of the family.”

From this quote one can see that there was a “Hierarchy” for the family during the time when Paul wrote this verse--- is this not the model that Paul was using when he spoke to Gentiles--“Subordination” or, in short, Christ was subordinate to the “Father”? Indeed, I would argue that there is an on-going discussion taking place within the Orthodox Christian Community as to whether to embrace “Subordination” prefacing that discussion with names such as Economic, Functional, Social amongst others. Many Trinitarians have challenged this interpretation and have openly said that the embracing of “Subordination” within the “Godhead” is a slippery slope to “Arianism”. In case we become too SMUG I should remind ourselves that it took a Constitutional Ammendment(USA) in the 20th Century just to give women the right to vote, and where I come from the "Privy Council" in 1919 had to define a woman as a "Person" so they could have rights!

Interesting questions that need some discussion don’t you think?

All the Best

Dave

Since: Jan 12

United States

#1708 Nov 24, 2012
Stanley Walker wrote:
<quoted text>
The Watchtower Society say that the Hebrew word 'malakh' literally means 'messenger,' such as a human ambassador or envoy of a King who represents the King.
The word 'malakh' has no inherent meaning of a specific type of 'messenger' such as a heavenly spirit creature like what we conceive of as an 'angel,' a term which evokes a very specific mental image of a traditional winged spirit creature.
So to use 'angel' as the default translation of 'malakh' introduces a mental concept level of interpretation which is not necessarily present in the Hebrew.
This can create a potential theological misunderstanding.
So, if we can agree between us that the Word of God is the 'messenger' of God the Father, rather than an 'angel,' we shall be nearer seeing eye to eye.
hehe, richard knows what you are up to stanley.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#1709 Nov 24, 2012
miseracord wrote:
<quoted text>That is correct. Now some will say that a woman is equal to her husband, lol, and the man is equal to Jesus. and, of course, Jesus is equal to his head, God.
Hi Miseracord

I posted a comment and some questions about 1 Cor. 11:3 on post#1707(this thread) to Rudi. Do you have any comments on that post.

All the Best

Dave

“By grace you have been saved”

Since: May 09

Weston-super-mare, UK

#1710 Nov 24, 2012
The New World Translation introduces Psalm 102 by saying:

“A prayer of the afflicted in case he grows feeble and pours out his concern before Jehovah himself.”

So, according to the Watchtower Society, this is a prayer to Jehovah:

“At the beginning it was you, O Lord, who founded the earth,
and the heavens are works of your hands.
They will perish, but you will endure,
and they will all become old like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them, and they will be changed.
But you are the same, and your years will not fail.”
-- Psalm 102:25-27 Septuagint

Now turn to Hebrews chapter 1 where Paul quotes Psalm 102:25-27 from the Septuagint and applies the Psalm to Jesus Christ, the Son of God:

With reference to the Son he says (see verse 8):

“You at the beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself,
and the heavens are the works of your hands.
They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually;
and just like an outer garment they will all grow old,
and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment;
and they will be changed,
but you are the same, and your years will never run out.”
Hebrews 1:10-12

So, according to Paul at Hebrews 1:8-12, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, can be identified with Jehovah the creator of Psalm 102:25

Surely not you say. But read it again and again. There is no escaping it.

Paul says Jesus is Jehovah.

Since: Jan 12

United States

#1711 Nov 24, 2012
ya know richard, no matter how you slice up the paragraphs and sentences at the beginning of the book of revelation.... its all about the one coming in the clouds, and every eye shall see him, the first and the last the alpha and the omega the one coming soon yhwh.

we all know who that is richard..... the one we are waiting for is jesus.....

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1712 Nov 24, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
If Jesus Christ is shown to be the "Alpha and Omega" and "the First and the Last", while the NWT also says that Jehovah God is the "Alpha and Omega" and "the First and the Last", then you, JWs, must either admit that Jesus Christ is the Almighty God, or else close your eyes to the Word.
Revelation 1:7-8 says it is someone "is coming". Who? Verse 7 says it is someone who was "pierced". Who was it that was pierced when he was nailed up to die? Jesus! But verse 8 says that it is Jehovah God who "is coming". Could it be that there are two who are coming? No! Verse 8 refers to "the One who...is coming".
Revelation 1:8 states clearly that Jehovah God is the Alpha and Omega. Now note what he says at Revelation 22:12-13: "'And, behold, I come quickly...I am Alpha and Omega,... the first and the last...'" So, Jehovah God is coming quickly. But notice the response when he says it again: "Surely I come quickly, Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (22:20, KJV)
The Alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet, while Omega is the last letter. Therefore, the "Alpha and Omega" means the same thing as "the First and the Last".
Who is speaking in Revelation 2:8? "...These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;" Obviously, it is Jesus. Who was Jesus identifying Himself as being, when He called Himself "the First and the Last"? This is how Almighty God described himself in the Old Testament. Jesus knew that the apostle John, who wrote the Revelation and later Bible readers would all remember these verses:
Rudi,

The major translations of Protestant faiths, with few acceptions, all see that Jesus is not the one speaking at Rev 1:8 and they don't see Jesus speaking until verse 11.

Take a look at these "red letter" translations below.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

This represents many top scholars and theologians from different Protestant faiths. Your thinking is also in opposition to all of these qualified scholars and their viewpoint.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1713 Nov 24, 2012
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text>Where in the scripture does it say an angel spoke to Moses from the burning bush?
EX3:14-16 NIV
14 God said to Moses,“I am who I am.[a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites:‘I am(A) has sent me to you.’”
God also said to Moses,“Say to the Israelites,‘The Lord,[b] the God of your fathers(B)—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob(C)—has sent me to you.’
“This is my name(D) forever,
the name you shall call me
from generation to generation.(E)
16 “Go, assemble the elders(F) of Israel and say to them,‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob(G)—appeared to me and said: I have watched over you and have seen(H) what has been done to you in Egypt.
Footnotes:
Exodus 3:14 Or I will be what I will be
Exodus 3:15 The Hebrew for Lord sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for I am in verse 14.
.
It clearly and plainly states that it is God speaking to Moses. In the King James version when you see the terms God or I AM it is literaly speaking of God and not the spirit of God. When Moses asked of the burning bushing it responded with "I AM". This is God speaking and one reason why Moses was not able to look directly upon the burning. Even his eyes were not able to look upon the image in which God showed Himself as.
dee,

Try reading this in context with the first verses of the account. Makes a big difference.

Exodus 3:1-5 New International Version (NIV)

3 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought,“I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”

4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush,“Moses! Moses!”

And Moses said,“Here I am.”
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said.“Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”

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