Paul says Jesus is Jehovah

Since: Jan 12

United States

#1674 Nov 23, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
holliberry,
What would help, would be to answer the questions that your post on Hebrews 1:8-9 presented.
How is Jesus spoken of as "O God", and then in the very next verse spoken of as a worshiper of God?
thats because when god's word goes forth, and becomes personified, he gives glory to the father who sent him as a son, as well as receiving the worship from those who understand who he is.

same with the holy sprit..... the holy spirit of god is directly from god and is a part of god, yet directs everyone toward god.
but when the holy spirit shows up.... its god showing up, not someone else.

your probem is that you don't agree with the nature and power of almighty god to be everywhere at the same time via his holy spirit and word..... so you claim they are someone else..... you outright dishoner god by claiming he isn't his word and his holy spirit.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1675 Nov 23, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
You joined JWs because they teach what you want yo hear, not what the Scriptures tell you!
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" 2 Tim. 4:3 (KJV)
Rudi,

Get real. Jehovah's Witnesses are know the world over as clean moral people.

When new ones start attending meetings, they have to bring their lives into harmony with Christian standards, before they are accepted for baptism or allowed to participate in the field ministry.

Those that don't want to live by Christian standards are removed from association from the congregation.

Many of the churches where I live, gladly accept any and all into their membership without regard to their moral condition and conduct, shacking up together, children out of wedlock, drug and alcohol abusers, are all considered as members if they fill a seat and put cash into the basket when it is passed around a few times over during the services.

If those such as this begin to associate with our congregation, they are helped to clean up their lives and morals, before they are accepted. If they don't change their vices, or they return to them, they are removed from our midst.

So your application of 2 Tim 4:3, is misapplied.
toadmann

Masontown, PA

#1676 Nov 23, 2012
youtube.com/watch... …Elf Rant Jesus was not Jehovah
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1677 Nov 23, 2012
Gods Kingdom Rules wrote:
<quoted text>It is you who is claiming we claimed to be an infallible prophet in the sense of being able to predict things in the name of Jehovah. You like many who speak against JWs are merely setting up a strawman and then attacking your strawman you have made.
You seem to be very confused and irritated because you feel you may loose the battle.

Please note, Peter wasn't a 'prophet' or the 'mouthpiece of God on earth' as the WTS claim of themselves.

Once again, the GB of the WTS clearly stated in 1972 that they are the mouthpiece of God on earth, the [living] prophet. What you do not understand or just refuse to understand that if they are the mouthpiece of God on earth (the prophet) through whom God sends messages to His people, then there IS NO MISTAKE whatsoever. No matter how weak that vessel (soul) may be, when God uses somebody that message is ABSOLUTELY clear and pure (undiluted).

If the GB of the WTS, the so-called mouthpiece of God on earth (the prophet), gives untrue or misleading messages, they are not influenced or guided by the TRUE HOLY SPIRIT, but by Satan's 'active force'.
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1678 Nov 23, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
Get real. Jehovah's Witnesses are know the world over as clean moral people.
When new ones start attending meetings, they have to bring their lives into harmony with Christian standards, before they are accepted for baptism or allowed to participate in the field ministry.
Those that don't want to live by Christian standards are removed from association from the congregation.
Many of the churches where I live, gladly accept any and all into their membership without regard to their moral condition and conduct, shacking up together, children out of wedlock, drug and alcohol abusers, are all considered as members if they fill a seat and put cash into the basket when it is passed around a few times over during the services.
If those such as this begin to associate with our congregation, they are helped to clean up their lives and morals, before they are accepted. If they don't change their vices, or they return to them, they are removed from our midst.
So your application of 2 Tim 4:3, is misapplied.
I am not part of that type of congregation. I am part of a congregation that keeps the Commandment s of God and the Faith (Testimony) of Jesus.

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev. 12:17 (KJV)
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Rev. 14:12 (KJV)

If you are not part of the congregation stated in Rev. 12:17 and 14:12, then 2 Tim 4:3 is still applies to you.

MANY ARE CALLED BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN.

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#1679 Nov 23, 2012
miseracord wrote:
<quoted text>
mmmm...I do know, but you seem to have a problem with that, because if you refer to various translations as well as interlinears, you will come up with the answer to Psalm 110:1, which Richardnak also showed you, however it seems you avoid this. In your cuteness, let me assure you I was not asking for information from you, only what you think of a subject.
<quoted text>
Thanks. That's why it's necessary to analyze Psalm 110:1 before you come to the conclusion that God was speaking to himself somehow, somewhere.
I am not trying to be "cute", I am serious, I have done A LOT of studying on this and MANY other things in the Bible, so I DO know God's word well. And it is VERY CLEAR from Scripture that God IS Jesus in the flesh. No other way to see it.

Take care.

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#1680 Nov 23, 2012
*correction...I meant to say "Jesus is God in the flesh".:)

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#1681 Nov 23, 2012
miseracord wrote:
<quoted text>So when a football team loses the game after prayer to GOD, you think maybe God may NOT be with that team? I want to know what YOU think. How do you determine when God is WITH whoever you include in that "us"?
Where do you get that crazy idea? I believe God has a reason for everything He does, I do NOT question Him.

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#1682 Nov 23, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
holliberry,
What would help, would be to answer the questions that your post on Hebrews 1:8-9 presented.
How is Jesus spoken of as "O God", and then in the very next verse spoken of as a worshiper of God?
The only way that verse works, is to render it in the way that Greek scholars tell us, is the most likely way to render this verse.
Heb 1:8-9 (NWT) But with reference to the Son:“God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.”
Hi Richard,
Sorry about not answering on my own, I was in a hurry to be with my family. I am sure you understand. And I should have waited and answered when I could answer with my own words. Forgive me.
"But with reference to the Son:'God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness'" (NWT)
In this particularly interesting verse, God is addressing the Son. The Greek construction of Hebrews 1:8 allows the text to be translated in two legitimate ways:
"God is your throne forever and ever....
and
"Thy Throne O God, is forever and ever..."
Heb. 1:8 is a quote from Psalm 45:6, which says,
"Thy Throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy Kingdom" (NASB).
The ASV, KJV, NIV, and NKJV all translated it as "Your throne, O God..." The RSV translates it as "Your divine throne endures for ever and ever," "but this is a highly unlikely translation because it requires understanding the Hebrew noun for "throne" in construct state, something extremely unusual when a noun has a pronomial suffix, as this one does...The KJV, NIV, and NASB all take the verse in its plain, straightforward sense, as do the ancient translations..."
(cont....)

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#1683 Nov 23, 2012
(cont. from post 1682...)
When we look at the Hebrew, we see that there is no grammatical requirement for this translation, though it is considered to be the best translation by most translators. In and of itself, this is not conclusive because the context of this verse in Psalm 45 is dealing with a king which would make one wonder why he would be addressed as God. But, it is not uncommon for NT writers to take a verse in the OT that seemingly deals with one subject and apply it to another. They knew something we didn't.
We all need to look at the context into which the writer of Hebrews put Psalm 45:6. He addressed it to Jesus. Therefore, Psalm 45 is a Messianic Psalm and must in interpreted in light of the NT, not the other way around.
Nevertheless, the context of this verse follows:
"For to which of the angels did He ever say, "Thou are My son, Today I have begotten Thee"? And again, "I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be a Son to Me"? 6.And when he again brings the first-born into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." 7.And of the angels He says "Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire." 8.But of the Son He says, "Thy Throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom, 9.Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy companions. 10.And, "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands; 11.They will perish, but though remainest...." (Heb. 1:5-11).
To say "God is your throne" doesn't make sense. What does it mean to say, "But to which of the angels did he say, God is your throne." What would that mean? Is God, Jesus' throne? God alone is on His throne and He isn't a throne for anyone else.
Also worth noting here is verse 10: "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands..." This is a quote from Psalm 102:24-25 which says, "I say,'O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Thy years are throughout all generations. 25.Of old Thou didst found the earth; And the heavens are the work of Thy hands.'" Clearly, God is the one being addressed in Psalm 102. It is God who laid the foundations of the earth. Yet, in Heb. 1:10, Jesus is called 'Lord' and is said to be the one who laid the foundation of the earth. This becomes even more interesting when we note that in Isaiah 44:24 it says, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone." If God was laying the foundations of the earth alone, that would mean that either Jesus has to be God, who laid the foundation the same as YHWH did, or we have a contradiction in the Bible. Clearly this section of Hebrews is proclaiming that Jesus is God. Therefore, contextually, it is best to translate Heb. 1:8 as, "Thy Throne, O God..." and the Father call Jesus God.
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1684 Nov 23, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
Get real. Jehovah's Witnesses are know the world over as clean moral people.
Richardnak, please could you tell me where does it say in the Bible that Jesus was given AUTHORITY to speak in God's name, to speak for God or to APPEAR to man [DISGUISED] in human form as Jehovah, PRETENDING TO BE JEHOVAH?

It looks you keep avoiding this post!
dee lightful

Piedmont, SC

#1685 Nov 23, 2012
miseracord wrote:
<quoted text>When choosing a religion, it's similar to choosing a marriage mate. You keep saying we serve the WTS/GB as if we place them above God. That is simply not true. I did not learn about peace and (true) love from any other religion but Jehovah's Witnesses. I am happy for the organization; for the publications, for their arrangements. So many people enjoy reading the publications. Because they express beautiful things of the Bible and give practical guidance as well as knowledge from the scriptures. Psalms 4:8 "In peace I will both lie down and sleep,
For you yourself alone, O Jehovah, make me dwell in security." Love often grows with understanding, the eyes of the heart and those of understanding. It's like a good marriage, even though two imperfect people. But love looks for the good things in others. Also, it is like the burning love that will not be smothered.
You did not find love and peace otherwhere because you ignored it or were not interested in the truth of scriptures. What you have found is false and anti- biblical The love you have found is easily smothered by one word of disagreeing with flip flopping men whose own literature name them false prophets.
.
They gave you some truth, that all Christians believe, and mixed that with a whole lot of man created lies about scripture and about what others believe.
.
I have been to many meetings and nothing can erase the hate preached of all others who did not follow men of the WTS, and the lies of what others believe.That was the big thing for me for it SHOWED me they do not preach Christ.
.
The love you think you found is not love at all for it is so superficial it is pathetic that anyone can find any peace there as you must alway look over your shoulder because big brother is watching and waiting to trap you into disobedience of many man made rules that have nothing to do with following Jesus and God but all to do with the power of men to enslave others to their will.
.
ps You don't need any religion in order to follow Christ all you need is to follow the scriptures.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1686 Nov 23, 2012
red blood relative wrote:
<quoted text>
thats because when god's word goes forth, and becomes personified, he gives glory to the father who sent him as a son, as well as receiving the worship from those who understand who he is.
same with the holy sprit..... the holy spirit of god is directly from god and is a part of god, yet directs everyone toward god.
but when the holy spirit shows up.... its god showing up, not someone else.
your probem is that you don't agree with the nature and power of almighty god to be everywhere at the same time via his holy spirit and word..... so you claim they are someone else..... you outright dishoner god by claiming he isn't his word and his holy spirit.
RBR,

Where do you get this? I have never talked about what you are saying.

Unless you are speaking about your alleged holy spirit that appears in the form of an angel, that you have never been able to produce a single verse as evidence of your alleged belief.

The holy spirit is not another person as you contend. There is one verse in the Scriptures where Jesus uses the word "comforter" to describe it, and the Greek word for it is in the masculine, and because it is masculine, you think in your confused mind it must be a person.

God's holy spirit is simply God's power, described as such many many times over and over in the Scriptures. And yes, God's holy spirit can be anywhere at any time that He directs it to be somewhere. It is just not a person, a third person of some imagined godhead that you have formulated in your confused mind.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1687 Nov 23, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
YOU ARE UTTERLY WRONG!
"7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea." Rev. 1:7, 8, 11 (KJV)
"12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
"13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."
"16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
"20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." Rev. 22:12, 13, 16, 17, 20 (KJV)
John in Revelation clearly says 'the Alpha and Omega','the beginning and the ending','the first and the last' is Jesus. He clearly points out to its readers [in Rev. 22: 20] that Jesus is the One who is coming by saying,'Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.' Please note, he doesn't say 'Even so, come, Jehovah' but 'Lord Jesus'. You must be so blinded by your 'active force' that your SPIRITUAL EYES just cannot see it!
Rudi,

You are running different paragraphs together in your effort to support your dogma. In your blind efforts, you are ignoring all that you know about proper written English and how it works.

Look at how the highly educated Greek scholars that have the highest training in languages possible, translate the Greek text into proper written English.

Revelation 1:4-8 Lexham English Bible (LEB)

4 John, to the seven churches in Asia: grace to you and peace from the one who is and the one who was and the one who is coming, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To the one who loves us and released us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—to him be the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even every one who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Yes, amen.

8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, the one who is and the one who was and the one who is coming, the All-Powerful.

They show verse 7, as the end of the paragraph, speaking about Jesus.

They begin a new paragraph with verse 8, because there is a change of subject, namely,“the Lord God”, along with the identifier,“who is and who was and who is to come”, as stated from verse 4.

Using verse 11, To support your argument, is in vain. Everybody knows, that is a spurious phrase that is not found in any of the earlier Greek manuscripts, and just about all scholars reject that phrase at Rev 1:11.

It’s purpose is clear, to support the false Trinity dogma. But it has no support from the Greek text.

All of the rest of your post has no support, because it is based on the misconception that you have regarding those first five verses, namely Rev 1:4-8.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1688 Nov 23, 2012
Rudi wrote:
Richardnak, please could you tell me where does it say in the Bible that Jesus was given AUTHORITY to speak in God's name, to speak for God or to APPEAR to man [DISGUISED] in human form as Jehovah, PRETENDING TO BE JEHOVAH?
It looks you have avoided this post!
Rudi,

Who is identified as the "Word of God"?

Who would you suppose God use to bring His most profound and important communications to humans?

Who would be the one to transmit the Law, that God gave to the nation of Israel?

Who would God use in speaking in a direct way to His faithful servants, such as Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, and many others?

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#1689 Nov 23, 2012
Paul said: "The head of Christ is God" 1Cor.11:3

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1690 Nov 23, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
YOU ARE DEAD WRONG:
PLEASE COMPARE V. 6 WITH V. 16 IN REV. 22
" 6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
AND PLEASE COMPARE V. 7 & 12 (and Rev. 1:7 & 8) WITH V. 17 & 20 IN REV. 22
Rev. 1: 7-8 – "7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev. 22:12, 17, & 20 – 7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
John clearly says 'the Alpha and Omega','the beginning and the ending','the first and the last' is Jesus. He clearly points out to its readers [in Rev. 22: 20] that Jesus is the One who is coming by saying,'Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.' Please note, he doesn't say 'Even so, come, Jehovah' but 'Lord Jesus'. You must be so blinded by your 'active force' that your SPIRITUAL EYES just cannot see it!
PLEASE NOTE: " 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Rev. 22:19 (KJV)
Rudi,

I’ll post this again, so you will understand where I’m at;

I now ask you, who was always known as “the Lord God of the holy prophets”?

Revelation 22:6 (NASB)
And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Wasn’t it the God of the Israelites, Jehovah, Jesus’ Father? Oh yeh, that’s right.

So in verses Rev 22: 6 and 7, the angel is speaking of the Father.

Verses 8 through 11, John narrates as the angel is still speaking.

Then in verses 12 and 13, the “One” that is identified as seated on the throne ten times previous, and identified as the “Alpha and Omega”, speaks again;

Rev 22:12-13 (NASB)“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward* is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Footnote:* Isaiah 40:10, and 62:11

(to be continued)

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1691 Nov 23, 2012
(continued)

Remember the footnotes that the scholars that produced this translation placed here?
They are showing through these cross references, just who this verse is speaking of.

First, Isaiah 40:10 (ASV)
Behold, the Lord Jehovah will come as a mighty one, and his arm will rule for him: Behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.

And now Isaiah 62:11
11 Behold, Jehovah hath proclaimed unto the end of the earth, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.

Now, if these learned men thought that this verse pertained to Jesus, why didn’t
they show a cross reference that places Jesus in this verse? Why do they instead place two references from the prophet Isaiah, who was a prophet of Jehovah?

We also note that Isaiah is saying that it is Jehovah that is coming with salvation, and that he is bringing His reward with Him, to repay whatever each one deserves.

Jesus says that he is the first and the last, but he qualifies that statement;

Revelation 1:17-18 (NKJV)
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

My belief is, Jesus means that he died and was made alive again, the very first to be resurrected to heavenly life directly by his Father, and the very last one, because from that point on, Jesus now has the keys of death and Hades, and he will resurrect all others.

If you have a better explanation, please show us.

“Close enough”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#1692 Nov 23, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
You joined JWs because they teach what you want yo hear, not what the Scriptures tell you!
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" 2 Tim. 4:3 (KJV)
I LISTENED to Jehovah's Witnesses finally, after examining many different religions. Then after studying the Bible with them (because I studied it with other religions), I decided to get baptized in harmony with scriptural principles. Upon studying religion and their histories, I decided that only Jehovah's Witnesses apply scriptural principles to themselves as an organization and therefore have God's blessings as an organization.

“Close enough”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#1693 Nov 23, 2012
Wolf 2 wrote:
Paul said: "The head of Christ is God" 1Cor.11:3
That is correct. Now some will say that a woman is equal to her husband, lol, and the man is equal to Jesus. and, of course, Jesus is equal to his head, God.

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