Paul says Jesus is Jehovah

“email at [email protected]

Since: Dec 07

central louisiana

#1514 Nov 19, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
Your viewpoint regarding "spiritual eyes" isn't correct.
I believe that the correct term would be "eyes of understanding".
ihv is this the same eyes of understanding that were supposed to SEE JESUS return in 1914?
WILL
When Jesus comes as God's executioner of His enemies,
IHV IS THIS what was supposed to happen in 1914? how MANY TIMES does he parousia?
all will understand that it is Jesus doing this.(Revelation 19:11-21) Maybe not right at first, but they will understand, with their eyes of understanding. This is the only way that every eye can see him.
Regarding the great crowd of Rev 7:9, what does the Revelation reveal about this great crowd?
They are mentioned in the same chapter as the 144,000, that have died and been resurrected to heavenly life.
We know that these ones have died, because they are said to have conquered the world as Jesus had earlier, by remaining loyal to God to their death.
Revelation 3:4-5 (KJV)
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Now compare Rev 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Here we see that these ones have died, and others of their number that will be fulfilled, will die also. They are given clean white robes, signifying their new life as spirit persons in heaven. In the very next few verses, the number of these ones is revealed.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Now about the great crowd of Rev 7:9.
Do we find mention of their deaths? No. Here is what is said of them;
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
These ones are wearing white robes also. How does this come about? Verses 14-15;
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
These ones of this great crowd, don’t have new clean white robes given to them, but they have washed their existing robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Still existing in their now cleaned robes, signify that they are still alive as humans.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
When and where does the Revelation say that God will dwell with them? Rev 21:3-4 gives the answer;
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
This is what I believe.
TO MUCH WT RUBBISH TO SORT THRU
WILL

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1515 Nov 19, 2012
ihveit wrote:
<quoted text>
IHV TWO FRICKING LIES in two sentences
will
will,

Don't you know it isn't Christian to use the "F" word?

Just because you alter the spelling, doesn't alter the meaning.

Shame, shame. And you say that you are born again? Shame, shame.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1516 Nov 19, 2012
ihveit wrote:
<quoted text>
ihv is this the same eyes of understanding that were supposed to SEE JESUS return in 1914?
WILL
<quoted text>
IHV IS THIS what was supposed to happen in 1914? how MANY TIMES does he parousia? <quoted text>
TO MUCH WT RUBBISH TO SORT THRU
WILL
will,

Are you calling God's Word from the KJV, rubbish? More shame.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1517 Nov 19, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I don't believe that. Angel = messanger. God & Jesus are also called messangers.
Rudi,

Yes, Jesus is considered God's chief messenger.

But God, only sends out His messengers. He isn't a messenger/angel.
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1518 Nov 20, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
It’ seems to me that you don’t understand what “plagiarism” is.
It means to post someone else’s composition or comments, as if it was your own composition, without giving credit to the author or original writer.
What ever you think the WT says or does, isn’t relevant to this discussion, because we are just discussing the Scriptures as translated by well accepted Protestant translations.
Most every verse that you use to support your Trinity doctrine, is clouded in renderings that don’t completely agree with the original Greek text, and the original inspired writer’s intent and thought.
We don’t say the opposite of what the original Greek text says. We disagree with some of the renderings that Trinitarian theologians have put forth as the truth of God’s word. Some of their renderings of key verses, don’t follow the Greek text accurately.
Your comments saying that I have an “I” problem, is just a distraction, and anyone could take your comments and claim the very same thing. A very poor tactic by the way.
You keep blaming others for my beliefs. They have nothing to do with my beliefs. The only thing that should be a determining factor in what we believe, is what we can prove from the Scriptures. God’s Word is the standard that we should go by.
You, JWs, diesagree with all the renderings where Jesus is revealed GOD. Do you want us to beleieve that this is simply coincidence? Oh, NO, this was done on purpose!

“Close enough”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#1519 Nov 20, 2012
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
Scripture states " every eye will see him"
whether that means spiritual eyes or physical eyes..its EVERY eye...and its seeing him come on clouds with power and great glory..So every eye is going to see Jesus coming with power and great glory, there will be no uncertainty that it is him.
Revelation 1:5 -
Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen."

Now if you really think that all the "tribes of the earth" will literally beat themselves in grief because of Jesus, that is your choice. I know that in middle eastern cultures, when in grief, people will beat themselves. But that is not so in every culture. It is an expression used to denote something.

“Close enough”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#1520 Nov 20, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
You, JWs, diesagree with all the renderings where Jesus is revealed GOD. Do you want us to beleieve that this is simply coincidence? Oh, NO, this was done on purpose!
How do you explain the fact that no man has seen God at any time? "No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him." John 1:18. Do you agree with that? Plus, your statement is wrong. But let's see how you figure the Bible says that no man has seen God at any time. Is that a true statement?

Since: Aug 10

Blairgowrie, UK

#1521 Nov 20, 2012
miseracord wrote:
How do you explain the fact that no man has seen God at any time? "No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him." John 1:18.
The answer is in your question and in the verse.

John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has revealed Him.

The Logos is the One called Jehovah in the Old Testament who appeared and spoke to the faithful men of old.

Jesus Christ is God manifest in human form.

“Close enough”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#1522 Nov 20, 2012
Mary MacLellan wrote:
<quoted text>
The answer is in your question and in the verse.
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has revealed Him.
The Logos is the One called Jehovah in the Old Testament who appeared and spoke to the faithful men of old.
Jesus Christ is God manifest in human form.
He is not God. God "manifest in human form" is not God. God is God. Jesus prayed to God, not himself as God manifest in human form. No man has seen God at any time. That Jesus has revealed God does not mean Jesus is God. In fact, it means that Jesus is not God, but has revealed Him.

“Close enough”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#1523 Nov 20, 2012
Mary, no man has seen God at any time. John wrote that no man has ever seen God. Jesus, revealing God, is not God.

Since: Aug 10

Blairgowrie, UK

#1524 Nov 20, 2012
miseracord wrote:
He is not God. God "manifest in human form" is not God. God is God. Jesus prayed to God, not himself as God manifest in human form. No man has seen God at any time. That Jesus has revealed God does not mean Jesus is God. In fact, it means that Jesus is not God, but has revealed Him.
Explain who this was then please:

Genesis 17:1
When Abram got to be ninety nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to Abram and said to him: "I am God Almighty".

“Close enough”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#1525 Nov 20, 2012
Mary MacLellan wrote:
<quoted text>
Explain who this was then please:
Genesis 17:1
When Abram got to be ninety nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to Abram and said to him: "I am God Almighty".
No man has seen God at any time.
1 Timothy 6:16 "He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. NO HUMAN EYE HAS EVER SEEN HIM, NOR EVER WILL."
No man, no human eye, has ever seen God at any time and never will.
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1526 Nov 20, 2012
miseracord wrote:
<quoted text>
No man has seen God at any time.
1 Timothy 6:16 "He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. NO HUMAN EYE HAS EVER SEEN HIM, NOR EVER WILL."
No man, no human eye, has ever seen God at any time and never will.
Isaiah 44:6, NWT
"“This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies,‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God."

Isaiah 54:5, NWT
"“For your Grand Maker is your husbandly owner, Jehovah of armies being his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Repurchaser. The God of the whole earth he will be called."

Miseracord, please could you tell me who is in Is. 44:6 and 54:5 the [Holy One of Israel] Repurchaser, as there seem to be two distinct Divine Beings, who are they?
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1527 Nov 20, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
Yes, Jesus is considered God's chief messenger.
But God, only sends out His messengers. He isn't a messenger/angel.
No, according to the Scriptures Jesus is also God. I know you don't like the idea, but no matter how hard you try to explain it, Jesus is also YAHWEH.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1528 Nov 20, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
You, JWs, diesagree with all the renderings where Jesus is revealed GOD. Do you want us to beleieve that this is simply coincidence? Oh, NO, this was done on purpose!
Rudi,

You are correct. The biased renderings in many translations was done on purpose.

Yes, we disagree with the biased renderings in some key verses, but those renderings disagree with the original Greek text.

Many scholars are finding those false renderings of key texts, and correcting them to once again agree with the Greek text.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1529 Nov 20, 2012
Mary MacLellan wrote:
<quoted text>
The answer is in your question and in the verse.
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has revealed Him.
The Logos is the One called Jehovah in the Old Testament who appeared and spoke to the faithful men of old.
Jesus Christ is God manifest in human form.
Hi Mary,

Jesus is declared to be the "Word of God". And you are correct that in his pre-human role, the Word/Jesus spoke for Jehovah God, as that was his primary role. He spoke in the first person as if he were Jehovah, because he had that authority to do so.

Regarding Genesis 17:1, we see that just a few verses earlier, the angel of Jehovah was already seen speaking with Ha'gar in the account.(Gen 16:7-13)

So when Jehovah appears to Abraham, in Gen 17:1, we already know that this is the angel of Jehovah, the Word of God.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1530 Nov 20, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
No, according to the Scriptures Jesus is also God. I know you don't like the idea, but no matter how hard you try to explain it, Jesus is also YAHWEH.
Rudi,

I embrace what the Scriptures say regarding the angel of Jehovah, as this shows us that Jesus is truely the Word of God, in that he speaks in the first person as if he were Jehovah.

But we don't loose the fact that while speaking for Jehovah, he is still identified as an angel, God's chief messenger/angel.
soapmann

Masontown, PA

#1531 Nov 20, 2012
youtube.com/watch... … Old Fart better him?

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1532 Nov 20, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
Isaiah 44:6, NWT
"“This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies,‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God."
Isaiah 54:5, NWT
"“For your Grand Maker is your husbandly owner, Jehovah of armies being his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Repurchaser. The God of the whole earth he will be called."
Miseracord, please could you tell me who is in Is. 44:6 and 54:5 the [Holy One of Israel] Repurchaser, as there seem to be two distinct Divine Beings, who are they?
Just noticed this post.

This is speaking only of one person. To try to claim that there are two persons here, would be like trying to say where the Son is to be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace, is four different persons.

Jehovah God is the repurchaser.

John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Who gave the purchase price according to John?
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1533 Nov 20, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
It’ seems to me that you don’t understand what “plagiarism” is.
It means to post someone else’s composition or comments, as if it was your own composition, without giving credit to the author or original writer.
What ever you think the WT says or does, isn’t relevant to this discussion, because we are just discussing the Scriptures as translated by well accepted Protestant translations.
Most every verse that you use to support your Trinity doctrine, is clouded in renderings that don’t completely agree with the original Greek text, and the original inspired writer’s intent and thought.
We don’t say the opposite of what the original Greek text says. We disagree with some of the renderings that Trinitarian theologians have put forth as the truth of God’s word. Some of their renderings of key verses, don’t follow the Greek text accurately.
Your comments saying that I have an “I” problem, is just a distraction, and anyone could take your comments and claim the very same thing. A very poor tactic by the way.
You keep blaming others for my beliefs. They have nothing to do with my beliefs. The only thing that should be a determining factor in what we believe, is what we can prove from the Scriptures. God’s Word is the standard that we should go by.
Richardnak, in the book "What Does the Bible Really Teach", p.223 and in the magazine "Should You Believe in the Trinity", p. 6, 7, 22 & 23 the WTS were making quotes from the Encyclopedia Britannica, the Catholic Encyclopedia and the New Catholic Encyclopedia, the World Book Encyclopedia, the Encyclopedia Americana, the Catholic Dictionary, the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, the Paganism in Our Christianity, Encyclopedia of Religions and Ethics, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hyppolitus, Origen, etc. I note, none of these quotes can be verified since the WTS does not give the chapter or page where to be found; however, when they are quoting from their own sources, they tell you the chapter and the page that they can be verified.

I asked JWs (including JW elders) in the past as why the WTS do that, but they couldn't give me an answer.

If the WTS teaches the TRUTH and they are honest and transparent, what do they hide? Are they worried that they will be caught with lies? The reality is that all these quotes are taken out of context and if you are reading them from the original sources you will find that ALL these quotes are telling you exactly the opposite. But what is the catch here? The only answer is that they don't want you to know the TRUTH, they don't want you to read any of these materials either because if you do you MAY find out the TRUTH, as many others did.

The reality is that the WTS (the JWs) is (are) the BIGGEST PLAGARIZERS! The WTS is a DISHONEST organization who is deceiving as many as she can,[which obviously helps them increase their cashflow].

I don't think my wife would trust me if I were to cheat on hear; yet, the WTS does just that, they are cheating and deceiving their flock.

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