Paul says Jesus is Jehovah

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1493 Nov 18, 2012
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text> You don't need to quote from the actual WT publication for they are all in your head and in your post and that is your truth...twisted interpretation of scripture with lots of assumptions thrown in all per WTS script as you pick and chose from many bibles what you thing suits the WT teachings. That is exactly how th WT came up with their NWT...pick and chose, add and delete words of many bibles to suit their bias teachings.
What will they do when those teachings are flip flopped again, a new bible addition?
dee,

If what you say were true, how is it that about 90 % of the time I quote from the well accepted NASB.

Many times if a certain poster prefers the KJV, I will use that translation. If they prefer the the NKJV, I quote from that translation.

If I am discussing something with a Catholic, I will use the NAB and sometimes the New Jerusalem Catholic translations of the Bible.

Sometimes I may quote from several translations, to show that in some cases a certain translation doesn't agree with all of the rest.

Doing this, I find how many different scholars have rendered a certain verse, and arrive at the most likely conclusion, because I believe the Bible interprets itself.

I never use the NWT here, because I find it is much more effective to use a translation that others are more likely to accept.

Your opinion of how the NWT translators came up with their translation isn’t true. They actually did translate from the original languages into modern English, using many Greek and Hebrew texts. Just because they hadn’t attended some school of higher learning affiliated with the churches, they were all capable and careful translators.

If you take the NWT, and compare it with many of the translations that have come out since the NWT was published, you will find that these later translations are very close to the renderings that the NWT translators that were way before them. If they didn’t know how to translate, why have these many other translations produced renderings so close to the NWT renderings?

Just one last thought. The NWT has had only one minor revision since it was first published in 1950, and that was in 1970.

There have been revisions in the footnotes, and some of the cross references that are only supporting information. But have you checked how many times other translations have been revised since they were first published?
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1494 Nov 19, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
Thank you you for your opinion. But you are wrong.
Please show me any time that I have plagiarized anything from any where.
I use popular well accepted Protestant translations of the Bible in my research and my posts/comments, and I post the translation that I am quoting from.
What I find in the Scriptures is what I believe, and the Scriptures varify themselves, once I have read the complete context and researched many other verses that have information that pertains to any given subject matter. I take all of that research and put it together, and come to a logical conclusion and an informed conclusion.
I know what I believe, because I have researched the Scriptures to see if the things I believe are really so.
I believe all of the JWs are plagiarizing! You (JWs) believe in fairy tales, in the WTS publications no matter what. Where the Scriptures tell you that Jesus is God, you just have to say the opposite. Where [the Scriptures] tell you when Jesus is coming every eye will see Him, you are saying that only 'spiritual eyes will see Him'. Also, the Bible tells us that the great crowd is in heaven, yet you believe it is on earth simply because those in Brookline are telling you so. These are a few examples, but there are many more.

You believe in a false organization, false prophet whose god is Satan's [the 'active force'] and not the TRUE GOD you may think.

"What ""I"" find in the Scriptures is what ""I" believe, and the Scriptures varify themselves, once ""I"" have read the complete context and researched many other verses that have information that pertains to any given subject matter. ""I"" take all of that research and put it together, and come to a logical conclusion and an informed conclusion.

""I"" know what ""I"" believe, because ""I"" have researched the Scriptures to see if the things ""I"" believe are really so."

I also note you have a serious 'I' problem. Lucifer had the same "I" problem in heaven before he fell. Obviously since you do not believe in the Holy Spirit being God, I assume you do not ask Him to teach you, guide you and talk to you but rather you are relying on [Satan's]'active force'. If you believe the 'active force' is the TRUE Holy Spirit (the third person of the Godhead), I am afraid you are deceived.

Seemingly you try to understand the Scriptures without the help of the TRUE Holy Spirit or God, but the Scriptures tell us that: "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5 (KJV)

“Close enough”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#1495 Nov 19, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe all of the JWs are plagiarizing!

You (JWs) believe in fairy tales, in the WTS publications no matter what. Where the Scriptures tell you that Jesus is God, you just have to say the opposite.
Not true at all, Rudi. I realize you believe strongly what you believe. But the scriptures never say that Jesus is God or a trinity. The scripture you used at 1 Timothy 3:16 to show that Jesus is God doesn't show that at all. What it says in the King James Bible is that God was made manifest, and that is quite a difference from saying that Jesus is God. See, what it says at 1 Timothy 3:16 King James Version is this:

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

Even if you use the king James Version (and thanks for pointing that out), which says, unlike many other reputable translations, that God was manifest in the flesh, it does not say that Jesus is God part of a trinity. God can be seen in creation. But the PERSON of God himself was reflected in the Son, his perfect image, but he himself not God Almighty, or God poured into a human body. I know this is difficult for some to understand. However, maybe in time you'll "see" it.
Rudi wrote:
Where [the Scriptures] tell you when Jesus is coming every eye will see Him, you are saying that only 'spiritual eyes will see Him'. Also, the Bible tells us that the great crowd is in heaven, yet you believe it is on earth simply because those in Brookline are telling you so. These are a few examples, but there are many more.
You believe in a false organization, false prophet whose god is Satan's [the 'active force'] and not the TRUE GOD you may think.
"What ""I"" find in the Scriptures is what ""I" believe, and the Scriptures varify themselves, once ""I"" have read the complete context and researched many other verses that have information that pertains to any given subject matter. ""I"" take all of that research and put it together, and come to a logical conclusion and an informed conclusion.
""I"" know what ""I"" believe, because ""I"" have researched the Scriptures to see if the things ""I"" believe are really so."
I also note you have a serious 'I' problem. Lucifer had the same "I" problem in heaven before he fell. Obviously since you do not believe in the Holy Spirit being God, I assume you do not ask Him to teach you, guide you and talk to you but rather you are relying on [Satan's]'active force'. If you believe the 'active force' is the TRUE Holy Spirit (the third person of the Godhead), I am afraid you are deceived.
Seemingly you try to understand the Scriptures without the help of the TRUE Holy Spirit or God, but the Scriptures tell us that: "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5 (KJV)
Well, thanks for your thoughts, but allow me to say that if every "eye" were literally to see him, great physical healings of all blind persons would have to occur on earth before that. And he'd have to be traveling on clouds over every person's head. Someone here suggested that believes as you do that maybe it would happen on tv. Well, I guess everyone in remote places with no eletricity would have tv's by then? And all literal blindness would be healed in order for every eye to "see" Jesus return floating on clouds.

“Close enough”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#1496 Nov 19, 2012
P.S. Rudi, only spiritual eyes will see Jesus. One does not need to see Jesus with their physical eyes to believe in him as God's son.

“Close enough”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#1497 Nov 19, 2012
Rudi, that would involve those on the earth. Their spiritual eyes would see him. Others would not. Those in heaven would see Jesus, by the way, Rudi. When Jesus was on earth, he died, yet even after that had many followers. They did not need to see him to believe in him. He sent out the holy spirit, or comforter, to help and aid his true followers. Since Jesus died and went to heaven, many throughout the centuries believed in him. They did not need to see him in the flesh or glorified flesh, yet they believed.
little lamb

Saint Albans, Australia

#1498 Nov 19, 2012
miseracord wrote:
Rudi, that would involve those on the earth. Their spiritual eyes would see him. Others would not. Those in heaven would see Jesus, by the way, Rudi. When Jesus was on earth, he died, yet even after that had many followers. They did not need to see him to believe in him. He sent out the holy spirit, or comforter, to help and aid his true followers. Since Jesus died and went to heaven, many throughout the centuries believed in him. They did not need to see him in the flesh or glorified flesh, yet they believed.
Scripture states " every eye will see him"

whether that means spiritual eyes or physical eyes..its EVERY eye...and its seeing him come on clouds with power and great glory..So every eye is going to see Jesus coming with power and great glory, there will be no uncertainty that it is him.
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1499 Nov 19, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
If you are so convinced that Jesus says he is Jehovah, please show me where he says this.
Perhaps the most conclusive proof is found in the Book of Revelation. Revelation 1:8 states: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says Jehovah God, "the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." There is no doubt as to Who is speaking here. It is plainly revealed to be Jehovah. Now if we turn to the last chapter we will see something very interesting. Here Jesus is speaking and again there is no doubt Who is talking for He says in verse 16: "I, Jesus..." We know Jesus is speaking and yet in verse 13 He says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Both Jehovah and Jesus claimed to be the Alpha and Omega. In order for that to be true they must be equal.

ALSO:

"Then Yahweh [on earth in human form] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh [in spirit form in heaven] out of heaven." Genesis 19:24 (KJV)(added words mine)

First, is clearly shows Yahweh walking around on the earth in human form with two angels. They are called "three men". If Jehovah's Witnesses argue that they are called men, the fact remains that just as angels are not men, neither is God a man. Yahweh and the two angels are called men, because they appeared as men.

Second: God taking human appearance on earth is called a "Theophanies".

Third, you have Genesis 19:24 that has two distinct Yahweh's: One on earth and one in heaven. "Then Yahweh [on earth in human form] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh [in spirit form in heaven] out of heaven. Genesis 19:24. Although the unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that this was Jesus talking to Abraham, such is a guess and not specifically known by scripture.

The unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that this was Jesus talking to Abraham, in Genesis 18. In this story, Abraham meets God (Jesus) and the two angels.

Jesus came right out and said He was the one who talked to Abraham. This is what Jesus meant when He said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56) God appearing to Abraham is an example of a Theophanies. Elijah is also said to have seen Jesus in heaven in Isa 6 + John 12:41. Jesus appearing to Elijah is not be an example of a "Theophanies" because Jesus was seen in heaven.

For Unitarians, Gen 19:24 + Amos 4:11 is a like getting struck by lightening twice in the same place! Amazingly, Amos 4:10-11 has two Yahweh's just like Gen 19:24 when talking about the exact same event!: "Yet you have not returned to Me,[Father]" declares Yahweh [Father]. "I [Father] overthrew you, as God [Son] overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me [Father]" declares Yahweh [Father]." (Amos 4:10-11)

So, if there are two YAHWEHS (GODS), according to you, who are they?
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1500 Nov 19, 2012
Unknown wrote:
<quoted text>
So instead of having a reasonable discussion about this issue and you presenting evidence for your claims, you decide to make irrational claims about my ability to understand. I can tell discussing truth with you isn't worth it.
You are right, it is not worth discussing the TRUTH with those who have it. Seemingly you prefer to believe the GB lies which they invent, but that's up to you you are free to do so. I would rather believe what the WORD OF GOD tells me!
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1501 Nov 19, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
Jesus is the Word of Jehovah, and certainly not Jehovah himself.
As the "Word of God", Jesus many times in his pre-human role, speaks for Jehovah in the first person as if he is Jehovah. But most times the Scriptures show us that the one speaking is the angel of Jehovah.("LORD" in many translations)
When you try to take the view that Jesus is Jehovah, you have to accept that the Scriptures identify Jehovah as an angel. You don't believe that, do you?
No, I don't believe that. Angel = messanger. God & Jesus are also called messangers.
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1502 Nov 19, 2012
Dave47 wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Rudi
My comments:
(1)Your posts following this one #1470, 1471 appear to be a CNP from this web address: http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/john173.ht... Is that correct?
(2)In the above post you object to the NWT rendering of “taking in knowledge” instead of “they may be knowing you”. In researching this subject I found this web address that supports the JW view re:- John 17:3. The web address is: http://onlytruegod.org/defense/john17.3.htm
The article argues in substantial detail why your post may not be accurate. The article make the following points:
(a)That the NWT has a footnote that gives an alternate reading for John 17:3 as noted in the article:
“However if anyone has the NWT Reference Edition of 1984 and wish or prefer the alternative rendering of "their knowing you", then the footnote gives the reader that choice. It should be noted that the 1st edition of the New World Translation of 1950 also says in a footnote, "Or, "their knowing you."
(b)That the wording “taking in knowledge” captures better the context of the verse in that it better carries an objective as well as relationship meaning. The Author cites:
“C.K. Barrett in his commentary on John's Gospel (SPCK, London, 1962) has a good discussion at John 17:3, of the "knowledge of God" in Hebrew and Hellenistic thought and he shows that such "knowledge" is both "objective and at the same time a personal relation."
(c)That the WTS has in several articles in the Watchtower made it clear that they are not arguing that “taking in knowledge” has an exclusive “academic intellectual” meaning but also captures the relationship meaning as well. The articles Author offers his opinion this way:
“.....Vol.36 of the World Biblical Commentary series, John 2nd edition by George R. Beasley-Murray whom writes on v.3 of John 17:
"[John 17:3]As a definition of eternal life it reads remarkably like a confession of faith: the eternal life, of which the gospel speaks, consists in the knowledge of God and of Jesus the Son, the Christ he has sent......the utterance reflects more closely the gospel tradition of Jesus' teaching, above all expressed in Matt 11:27....Such knowledge advances beyond the intellect to include relationship and communion..." p.297.
Exactly! And with that the Jehovah's Witnesses agree! The New World Translation's "taking in knowledge" at John 17:3 does not obviate these comments.”
(d)That There are many Scholars that support the rendering of “knowledge” For example:
“Vine's Expository Dictionary says, under 'know':
"GINOSKO...signifies to be taking in knowledge, to come to know, recognize, understand, or to understand completely..."
John 17:3(NWT) has a doctrinal importance as well. The verse says:
“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”
Does this not say that the Father is the “only true God” therefore how can Jesus be God? What is your response?
All the Best
Dave
That is a distorted text! I rely on the Greek text which couldn't be clearer!
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1503 Nov 19, 2012
Ex-JWs letter:

"After doing my own honest research and allowing the Holy Spirit to humble me and stop fighting against what the Spirit was trying to show me from Jehovah's Witnesses own publications and their own Bible Translation it was obvious I had been mislead. My wife and I left the organization after that. As a Regular Pioneer I found that as I wanted to help people learn about God I found myself trying to defend the organization for all their false teachings !!!

There has to come a time when Witnesses have to ask how long are you willing to defend this organization that has really lead people away from believing in Jehovah because this organization claims to represent him !!! My love is for GOD not a organization of men who keep rushing ahead of the scriptures and are still coming up with all these false dates and teachings !!!
Enough is enough !!! My Wife and I are born again Christians now and we feel the Holy Spirit for the first time in our lives and it feels sooooooooo wonderful !!!
I love all my born again Brothers and Sisters in Christ and I'm sorry for fighting against you for all these past years !!! I was just like Saul but now I have seen the light !!!
I'm Paul now and I am so zealous for JESUS AND I WILL EXPOSE THIS FALSE ORGANIZATION TO SAVE OTHERS FROM THIS MISLEAD ORGANIZATION !!!

Your comment here Sister is so true,''The only people to survive Armageddon will be born-again of the Holy Spirit Christians who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Tragically that will exclude 99.9% of all Jehovah's Witnesses because they are NOT born-again of the Holy Spirit, they do not understand who Jesus Christ trully is and they have been told they do not need Jesus Christ as their mediator. They have no assurance of salvation because their sins have not been forgiven (unlike the 144,000). Pray for them. They have been taught a false gospel.''"
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1504 Nov 19, 2012
miseracord wrote:
Rudi, that would involve those on the earth. Their spiritual eyes would see him. Others would not. Those in heaven would see Jesus, by the way, Rudi. When Jesus was on earth, he died, yet even after that had many followers. They did not need to see him to believe in him. He sent out the holy spirit, or comforter, to help and aid his true followers. Since Jesus died and went to heaven, many throughout the centuries believed in him. They did not need to see him in the flesh or glorified flesh, yet they believed.
"13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thes. 4:13-17 (KJV)

"7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" 2 Thes. 1:7-9 (KJV)

" Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." Rev. 1:7 (KJV)

" He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." Rev. 22:20 (KJV)

It is written, EVERY EYE shall see Him even those who pierced Him.

Jesus' second coming will be a LITERAL, VISIBLE, AUDIBLE, GLORIOUS and CLIMACTIC event. It will be the biggest event this earth has ever known. How is it, then, that only spiritual eyes will see Him?

If you believe in a secretive event/coming seen by spiritual eyes only, you are deceived!
Unknown

Adelaide, Australia

#1505 Nov 19, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
You are right, it is not worth discussing the TRUTH with those who have it. Seemingly you prefer to believe the GB lies which they invent, but that's up to you you are free to do so. I would rather believe what the WORD OF GOD tells me!
Once again you make assumptions, you speak words without knowledge. I'm not a Jehovah's Witness.
dee lightful

Piedmont, SC

#1506 Nov 19, 2012
miseracord wrote:
P.S. Rudi, only spiritual eyes will see Jesus. One does not need to see Jesus with their physical eyes to believe in him as God's son.
What of the non-believers that will see him? Scripture says ALL EYES EVEN THE ONES THAT PIERCED HIM.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1508 Nov 19, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe all of the JWs are plagiarizing! You (JWs) believe in fairy tales, in the WTS publications no matter what. Where the Scriptures tell you that Jesus is God, you just have to say the opposite. Where [the Scriptures] tell you when Jesus is coming every eye will see Him, you are saying that only 'spiritual eyes will see Him'. Also, the Bible tells us that the great crowd is in heaven, yet you believe it is on earth simply because those in Brookline are telling you so. These are a few examples, but there are many more.
You believe in a false organization, false prophet whose god is Satan's [the 'active force'] and not the TRUE GOD you may think.
"What ""I"" find in the Scriptures is what ""I" believe, and the Scriptures varify themselves, once ""I"" have read the complete context and researched many other verses that have information that pertains to any given subject matter. ""I"" take all of that research and put it together, and come to a logical conclusion and an informed conclusion.
""I"" know what ""I"" believe, because ""I"" have researched the Scriptures to see if the things ""I"" believe are really so."
I also note you have a serious 'I' problem. Lucifer had the same "I" problem in heaven before he fell. Obviously since you do not believe in the Holy Spirit being God, I assume you do not ask Him to teach you, guide you and talk to you but rather you are relying on [Satan's]'active force'. If you believe the 'active force' is the TRUE Holy Spirit (the third person of the Godhead), I am afraid you are deceived.
Seemingly you try to understand the Scriptures without the help of the TRUE Holy Spirit or God, but the Scriptures tell us that: "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5 (KJV)
Rudi,

It’ seems to me that you don’t understand what “plagiarism” is.

It means to post someone else’s composition or comments, as if it was your own composition, without giving credit to the author or original writer.

What ever you think the WT says or does, isn’t relevant to this discussion, because we are just discussing the Scriptures as translated by well accepted Protestant translations.

Most every verse that you use to support your Trinity doctrine, is clouded in renderings that don’t completely agree with the original Greek text, and the original inspired writer’s intent and thought.

We don’t say the opposite of what the original Greek text says. We disagree with some of the renderings that Trinitarian theologians have put forth as the truth of God’s word. Some of their renderings of key verses, don’t follow the Greek text accurately.

Your comments saying that I have an “I” problem, is just a distraction, and anyone could take your comments and claim the very same thing. A very poor tactic by the way.

You keep blaming others for my beliefs. They have nothing to do with my beliefs. The only thing that should be a determining factor in what we believe, is what we can prove from the Scriptures. God’s Word is the standard that we should go by.
Unknown

Melbourne, Australia

#1509 Nov 19, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
It’ seems to me that you don’t understand what “plagiarism” is.
It means to post someone else’s composition or comments, as if it was your own composition, without giving credit to the author or original writer.
What ever you think the WT says or does, isn’t relevant to this discussion, because we are just discussing the Scriptures as translated by well accepted Protestant translations.
Most every verse that you use to support your Trinity doctrine, is clouded in renderings that don’t completely agree with the original Greek text, and the original inspired writer’s intent and thought.
We don’t say the opposite of what the original Greek text says. We disagree with some of the renderings that Trinitarian theologians have put forth as the truth of God’s word. Some of their renderings of key verses, don’t follow the Greek text accurately.
Your comments saying that I have an “I” problem, is just a distraction, and anyone could take your comments and claim the very same thing. A very poor tactic by the way.
You keep blaming others for my beliefs. They have nothing to do with my beliefs. The only thing that should be a determining factor in what we believe, is what we can prove from the Scriptures. God’s Word is the standard that we should go by.
Took the words right out of my mouth.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1510 Nov 19, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
Perhaps the most conclusive proof is found in the Book of Revelation. Revelation 1:8 states: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says Jehovah God, "the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." There is no doubt as to Who is speaking here. It is plainly revealed to be Jehovah. Now if we turn to the last chapter we will see something very interesting. Here Jesus is speaking and again there is no doubt Who is talking for He says in verse 16: "I, Jesus..." We know Jesus is speaking and yet in verse 13 He says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Both Jehovah and Jesus claimed to be the Alpha and Omega. In order for that to be true they must be equal.
Rudi,

The Alpha and Omega, is first identified in chapter 1 of the Revelation, as the one that has the throne. He is identified as,“him which is, and which was, and which is to come” Rev 1:4 (KJV)
Again in verse 8, this identifier, the one “which is, and which was, and which is to come”, is shown to be God Almighty.

Rev 1:8 (KJV) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

This verse is not describing Jesus, as Jesus isn’t introduced until verse 5;

Rev 1:5 (KJV) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Now if you read all of the way through the rest of the Revelation, you will find that the “Alpha and Omega” is described as the one that has the throne, and is seen as being seated on the throne.

Revelation 4 throughout, speaks of the one seated on the throne. Then in Rev 5:1, we see this one seated on the throne, and there is a book in his right hand. In verse 6, we see a Lamb, standing in the midst of the throne, obviously this Lamb is Jesus.

All of the way through the rest of the Revelation we see the one seated on the throne is God Almighty, the Alpha and Omega, as identified as such in Rev 1:8.

Jesus is described throughout as the Lamb. The Lamb is seen standing in the midst of the throne, or beside the throne.

Now we come to Rev 22. John describes as the angel shows him this last scene. The angel is the one speaking here, from verse 1 to verse 11.

Then in verse 12, the one identified as the Alpha and Omega, the one seated on the throne, speaks, from verse 12 to verse 15.

Then in verse 16, Jesus speaks one last time. He doesn’t identify himself as the Alpha and Omega, but as “the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1511 Nov 19, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
ALSO:
"Then Yahweh [on earth in human form] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh [in spirit form in heaven] out of heaven." Genesis 19:24 (KJV)(added words mine)
First, is clearly shows Yahweh walking around on the earth in human form with two angels. They are called "three men". If Jehovah's Witnesses argue that they are called men, the fact remains that just as angels are not men, neither is God a man. Yahweh and the two angels are called men, because they appeared as men.
Second: God taking human appearance on earth is called a "Theophanies".
Third, you have Genesis 19:24 that has two distinct Yahweh's: One on earth and one in heaven. "Then Yahweh [on earth in human form] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh [in spirit form in heaven] out of heaven. Genesis 19:24. Although the unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that this was Jesus talking to Abraham, such is a guess and not specifically known by scripture.
The unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that this was Jesus talking to Abraham, in Genesis 18. In this story, Abraham meets God (Jesus) and the two angels.
Jesus came right out and said He was the one who talked to Abraham. This is what Jesus meant when He said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56) God appearing to Abraham is an example of a Theophanies. Elijah is also said to have seen Jesus in heaven in Isa 6 + John 12:41. Jesus appearing to Elijah is not be an example of a "Theophanies" because Jesus was seen in heaven.
For Unitarians, Gen 19:24 + Amos 4:11 is a like getting struck by lightening twice in the same place! Amazingly, Amos 4:10-11 has two Yahweh's just like Gen 19:24 when talking about the exact same event!: "Yet you have not returned to Me,[Father]" declares Yahweh [Father]. "I [Father] overthrew you, as God [Son] overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me [Father]" declares Yahweh [Father]." (Amos 4:10-11)
So, if there are two YAHWEHS (GODS), according to you, who are they?
Rudi,

The second portion of your post, shows that you are thinking, as you see a difficult set of circumstances to explain.

Let me just say this. Jesus is described as the “Word of God”. So it would be the most natural thing for him to speak for Jehovah, and as if he were Jehovah.

That is what we see in Genesis 18.

(You wrote>) God taking human appearance on earth is called a "Theophanies".

This is proof of what? God doesn’t appear on earth in any form. That is the function of His Son, the Word of God. He also sends His angels as messengers, as that is one of their roles in God’s purpose.

Genesis 19:24, shows Jesus, the Word of God, speaking in the first person for God, and as if he is God. But Jehovah God is really still in heaven, as His authorised agents carry out His will here on the earth.

Genesis 19:24 (KJV)Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven:

I see no problem with this situation.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1512 Nov 19, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
Where [the Scriptures] tell you when Jesus is coming every eye will see Him, you are saying that only 'spiritual eyes will see Him'. Also, the Bible tells us that the great crowd is in heaven, yet you believe it is on earth simply because those in Brookline are telling you so. These are a few examples, but there are many more.
Rudi,

Your viewpoint regarding "spiritual eyes" isn't correct.

I believe that the correct term would be "eyes of understanding".

When Jesus comes as God's executioner of His enemies, all will understand that it is Jesus doing this.(Revelation 19:11-21) Maybe not right at first, but they will understand, with their eyes of understanding. This is the only way that every eye can see him.

Regarding the great crowd of Rev 7:9, what does the Revelation reveal about this great crowd?

They are mentioned in the same chapter as the 144,000, that have died and been resurrected to heavenly life.

We know that these ones have died, because they are said to have conquered the world as Jesus had earlier, by remaining loyal to God to their death.

Revelation 3:4-5 (KJV)
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Now compare Rev 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Here we see that these ones have died, and others of their number that will be fulfilled, will die also. They are given clean white robes, signifying their new life as spirit persons in heaven. In the very next few verses, the number of these ones is revealed.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Now about the great crowd of Rev 7:9.
Do we find mention of their deaths? No. Here is what is said of them;
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

These ones are wearing white robes also. How does this come about? Verses 14-15;
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These ones of this great crowd, don’t have new clean white robes given to them, but they have washed their existing robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Still existing in their now cleaned robes, signify that they are still alive as humans.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

When and where does the Revelation say that God will dwell with them? Rev 21:3-4 gives the answer;

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

This is what I believe.

“email at [email protected]

Since: Dec 07

central louisiana

#1513 Nov 19, 2012
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
The NWT doesn't deny Jesus has divine nature like the Father
After all 1 john says the word was a god ..or was god..which means divine.
by the way it is never said of Jehovah that he was God..It says of Jehovah he is God.
IHV TWO FRICKING LIES in two sentences
will

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