Paul says Jesus is Jehovah
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1471 Nov 18, 2012
Continued from previous page:

4. The Greek word ginosko in John 17:3 means know. By the Watchtower Society using knowledge instead and inserting the words take in, they are able to come up with their NWT rendering of that verse.

If one would compare Matt. 1:25 with John 17:3 and note that ginosko is found in both verses he could easily notice that this term carries a meaning of intimacy and relationship with it. That fact is suggested by ginosko. Another related verse showing the meaning of ginosko is this passge:

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.(1 John 2:3,4)

5. How much knowledge does a sinner need to have before he can find forgiven of sins and eternal life? Answer: not very much. To answer in a different way—how much knowledge did the Philippian jailer have before he got saved in Acts 16:30-34? Again the answer is the same. That is how much we need today.(Not to stray too far off on a tangent, also notice how quickly the Philippian jailer got water baptized after his salvation.) Other examples of how little knowledge one needs to have are shown by the conversion of Zacchaeus (Lk.19:1-9), the tax collector who sincerely prayed God have mercy on me a sinner (Lk. 18:9-14), the unnamed ones along with Cornelius who got saved from the actual salvation sermon cited in Acts 10:34-43, etc.

The Watchtower Society is ensnaring sincere people to a lifelong study of their own literature by twisting the meaning of John 17:3. The worst part of all of this for those that do get deceived by them is, they have missed the true understanding of salvation shown in the Bible and, therefore, remain unsaved and spiritually dead in their sins. We have answered Jehovah's Witnesses biblically in various ways.
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1472 Nov 18, 2012
miseracord wrote:
<quoted text>Do you use anything else if you need clarification on some statements? Or do you view the KJV as an inspired translation?
I use other translations as well and compare them with the Greek text (including the KIT).
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1473 Nov 18, 2012
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
The fact remains there are two persons to KNOW ..The true God AND the one he sent forth
King James... Psalm 83 [18]
That men may knowe, that thou, whose name alone is IEHOVAH: art the most High ouer all the earth."
So obviously you don't KNOW the Most high at all
and here you have to go again to rubbish another translation of the Scriptures....
And that YAHWEH is Jesus Christ whom you reject. Yes, the NWT is THE a corrupt translation from ALL the translation circulated on earth for it utterly denies Jesus' Deity. OPEN YOUR EYES!
little lamb

Saint Albans, Australia

#1474 Nov 18, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
And that YAHWEH is Jesus Christ whom you reject. Yes, the NWT is THE a corrupt translation from ALL the translation circulated on earth for it utterly denies Jesus' Deity. OPEN YOUR EYES!
The NWT doesn't deny Jesus has divine nature like the Father

After all 1 john says the word was a god ..or was god..which means divine.

by the way it is never said of Jehovah that he was God..It says of Jehovah he is God.
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1476 Nov 18, 2012
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
The NWT doesn't deny Jesus has divine nature like the Father
After all 1 john says the word was a god ..or was god..which means divine.
by the way it is never said of Jehovah that he was God..It says of Jehovah he is God.
And that Jehovah is Jesus Christ whether you like it or not!

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1478 Nov 18, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
I use other translations as well and compare them with the Greek text (including the KIT).
Hi Rudi,

It seems to me that you don't really use the Bible, as you plagiarize from so freely from some other person's book.

You are proclaiming something from books other than the Scriptures, while at the same time you denounce Jehovah's Witnesses for the same thing. That's laughable.

Why don't you begin to be honest, and present what you believe from your knowledge of God's Word, instead of plagiarizing from uninspired books of men.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1479 Nov 18, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
And that Jehovah is Jesus Christ whether you like it or not!
Rudi,

Jesus is the Word of Jehovah, and certainly not Jehovah himself.

As the "Word of God", Jesus many times in his pre-human role, speaks for Jehovah in the first person as if he is Jehovah. But most times the Scriptures show us that the one speaking is the angel of Jehovah.("LORD" in many translations)

When you try to take the view that Jesus is Jehovah, you have to accept that the Scriptures identify Jehovah as an angel. You don't believe that, do you?
dee lightful

Piedmont, SC

#1480 Nov 18, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Rudi,
It seems to me that you don't really use the Bible, as you plagiarize from so freely from some other person's book.
You are proclaiming something from books other than the Scriptures, while at the same time you denounce Jehovah's Witnesses for the same thing. That's laughable.
Why don't you begin to be honest, and present what you believe from your knowledge of God's Word, instead of plagiarizing from uninspired books of men.
The mind of a jw is a wonderous thing . That same question can be asked of JW's.
Why doesn't the JW present the truth of scripture from the bible instead of uninspired books of men? Perhaps because they are not taught truth from scripture but are taught the uninspired ideas of men who need to flip flop those ideas because they never came from scriptures but from the twisted mind of men?
Scripture tell us in Ecclesiastes 12:12 NIV
Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
The bible tells us we only need his Holy Words and yet the JW want people to study the WT , with their flip flopping doctrine, instead of Gods' Holy Words. How can anyone learn the truth of anything when that so called truth turns out not to be truth at all?
A personal study of scriptures will make all things clear and man made books do nothing but muddy the waters,
Unknown

Adelaide, Australia

#1481 Nov 18, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
And that YAHWEH is Jesus Christ whom you reject. Yes, the NWT is THE a corrupt translation from ALL the translation circulated on earth for it utterly denies Jesus' Deity. OPEN YOUR EYES!
Maybe you can open them for us.

Where does the bible plainly state that Jesus is Yahweh or Jehovah? Book, chapter and verse please.

NOTE: I'm not asking where the bible states that He is 'theos' but where it states He is Yahweh or Jehovah.
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1482 Nov 18, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Rudi,
It seems to me that you don't really use the Bible, as you plagiarize from so freely from some other person's book.
You are proclaiming something from books other than the Scriptures, while at the same time you denounce Jehovah's Witnesses for the same thing. That's laughable.
Why don't you begin to be honest, and present what you believe from your knowledge of God's Word, instead of plagiarizing from uninspired books of men.
The biggest plagiarisers are you, JWs. I use for my studies other translations including the KIT for information; however, you are plagiarizing from the WTS books which are satanic and are used to deceive people instead of saving them. To you, JWs, the Word of God is a myth, a fairy tale which cannot be understood unless some diabolical 'GB' members explain them to you.

But the Scriptures are not fairy tales, the Holy Word of God is a TRUE book and it does NOT need the GB of the WTS (the false prophet) in order to understand it. The Bible interprets itself; we don't need your falsehoods, we need the Holy Spirit whom you deny simply because you prefer Satan's 'active force' to teach and guide you. But that's your choice, you are free to do so! As for myself I serve the TRUE GOD, our LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ and the TRUE HOLY SPIRIT!
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1483 Nov 18, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Rudi,
Jesus is the Word of Jehovah, and certainly not Jehovah himself.
As the "Word of God", Jesus many times in his pre-human role, speaks for Jehovah in the first person as if he is Jehovah. But most times the Scriptures show us that the one speaking is the angel of Jehovah.("LORD" in many translations)
When you try to take the view that Jesus is Jehovah, you have to accept that the Scriptures identify Jehovah as an angel. You don't believe that, do you?
No, I don't believe fables, I believe the TRUTH and the TRUTH ONLY and I would even give up my life for it!
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#1484 Nov 18, 2012
Unknown wrote:
<quoted text> Maybe you can open them for us.
Where does the bible plainly state that Jesus is Yahweh or Jehovah? Book, chapter and verse please.
NOTE: I'm not asking where the bible states that He is 'theos' but where it states He is Yahweh or Jehovah.
If the HOLY WORD OF GOD cannot open your eyes, how could I do it?! There is not only one book, or one or two chapters or verse(s) in the Bible who testifies about Jesus being God, Yahweh, Lord and Saviour, but the whole Scriptures are testifying about that.

If you are ignoring the whole Bible whcih is about our Father God, God and Saviour Jesus Christ and God the Holy Spirit, a few verses I can put down on this forum would be to you like a drop of water in a bucket.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1485 Nov 18, 2012
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text> The mind of a jw is a wonderous thing . That same question can be asked of JW's.
Why doesn't the JW present the truth of scripture from the bible instead of uninspired books of men? Perhaps because they are not taught truth from scripture but are taught the uninspired ideas of men who need to flip flop those ideas because they never came from scriptures but from the twisted mind of men?
Scripture tell us in Ecclesiastes 12:12 NIV
Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
The bible tells us we only need his Holy Words and yet the JW want people to study the WT , with their flip flopping doctrine, instead of Gods' Holy Words. How can anyone learn the truth of anything when that so called truth turns out not to be truth at all?
A personal study of scriptures will make all things clear and man made books do nothing but muddy the waters,
dee,

I rarely quote from anything but the Scriptures, usually a popular well accepted Protestant translation.

I use a Bible concordance of Bible words in addition to the Scriptures, to find verses that pertain to any given subject.

On some occasions I quote from the words of secular sources, Biblical encyclopedias etc, and sometimes the footnotes from various Bible translations.

I never quote from any WT publication, unless someone asks me for a quote from there.

I present the truth as I find it in the Scriptures.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1486 Nov 18, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
The biggest plagiarisers are you, JWs. I use for my studies other translations including the KIT for information; however, you are plagiarizing from the WTS books which are satanic and are used to deceive people instead of saving them. To you, JWs, the Word of God is a myth, a fairy tale which cannot be understood unless some diabolical 'GB' members explain them to you.
But the Scriptures are not fairy tales, the Holy Word of God is a TRUE book and it does NOT need the GB of the WTS (the false prophet) in order to understand it. The Bible interprets itself; we don't need your falsehoods, we need the Holy Spirit whom you deny simply because you prefer Satan's 'active force' to teach and guide you. But that's your choice, you are free to do so! As for myself I serve the TRUE GOD, our LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ and the TRUE HOLY SPIRIT!
Rudi,

Thank you you for your opinion. But you are wrong.

Please show me any time that I have plagiarized anything from any where.

I use popular well accepted Protestant translations of the Bible in my research and my posts/comments, and I post the translation that I am quoting from.

What I find in the Scriptures is what I believe, and the Scriptures varify themselves, once I have read the complete context and researched many other verses that have information that pertains to any given subject matter. I take all of that research and put it together, and come to a logical conclusion and an informed conclusion.

I know what I believe, because I have researched the Scriptures to see if the things I believe are really so.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#1487 Nov 18, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I don't believe fables, I believe the TRUTH and the TRUTH ONLY and I would even give up my life for it!
Rudi,

If you are so convinced that Jesus says he is Jehovah, please show me where he says this.
little lamb

Saint Albans, Australia

#1488 Nov 18, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
And that Jehovah is Jesus Christ whether you like it or not!
Jesus said " he comes in his Fathers name"

and Jesus name means..Jehovah saves..

However Jesus does tell us " The Father is greater then I am"

so Rudi are you listening to Jesus?..because he tells us many things and he is the only one who can explain the Father to us.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#1489 Nov 18, 2012
Rudi wrote:
A very important Scripture to a Jehovah’s Witness regarding salvation is John 17:3, that is, as it reads from their strange so-called “Bible,” The New World Translation. According to their customized translation, John 17:3 reads:
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
Please know there are no reputable translations that render that verse taking in knowledge like the NWT does. So why did the Watchtower Society change the way this verse should be read and understood? Because it is perfectly consistent with what they are trying to declare to others, that is, only the Watchtower Society located in Brooklyn, New York has the spiritual ability to correctly understand the Scriptures and teach them accurately, and all of this is connected with getting everlasting life. This is how they can also print that one must be a Jehovah’s Witness for everlasting life:....
Hi Rudi

My comments:

(1)Your posts following this one #1470, 1471 appear to be a CNP from this web address: http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/john173.ht... Is that correct?

(2)In the above post you object to the NWT rendering of “taking in knowledge” instead of “they may be knowing you”. In researching this subject I found this web address that supports the JW view re:- John 17:3. The web address is: http://onlytruegod.org/defense/john17.3.htm
The article argues in substantial detail why your post may not be accurate. The article make the following points:

(a)That the NWT has a footnote that gives an alternate reading for John 17:3 as noted in the article:

“However if anyone has the NWT Reference Edition of 1984 and wish or prefer the alternative rendering of "their knowing you", then the footnote gives the reader that choice. It should be noted that the 1st edition of the New World Translation of 1950 also says in a footnote, "Or, "their knowing you."

(b)That the wording “taking in knowledge” captures better the context of the verse in that it better carries an objective as well as relationship meaning. The Author cites:

“C.K. Barrett in his commentary on John's Gospel (SPCK, London, 1962) has a good discussion at John 17:3, of the "knowledge of God" in Hebrew and Hellenistic thought and he shows that such "knowledge" is both "objective and at the same time a personal relation."

(c)That the WTS has in several articles in the Watchtower made it clear that they are not arguing that “taking in knowledge” has an exclusive “academic intellectual” meaning but also captures the relationship meaning as well. The articles Author offers his opinion this way:

“.....Vol.36 of the World Biblical Commentary series, John 2nd edition by George R. Beasley-Murray whom writes on v.3 of John 17:

"[John 17:3]As a definition of eternal life it reads remarkably like a confession of faith: the eternal life, of which the gospel speaks, consists in the knowledge of God and of Jesus the Son, the Christ he has sent......the utterance reflects more closely the gospel tradition of Jesus' teaching, above all expressed in Matt 11:27....Such knowledge advances beyond the intellect to include relationship and communion..." p.297.

Exactly! And with that the Jehovah's Witnesses agree! The New World Translation's "taking in knowledge" at John 17:3 does not obviate these comments.”

(d)That There are many Scholars that support the rendering of “knowledge” For example:

“Vine's Expository Dictionary says, under 'know':
"GINOSKO...signifies to be taking in knowledge, to come to know, recognize, understand, or to understand completely..."

John 17:3(NWT) has a doctrinal importance as well. The verse says:

“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”
Does this not say that the Father is the “only true God” therefore how can Jesus be God? What is your response?

All the Best

Dave
dee lightful

Piedmont, SC

#1490 Nov 18, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
dee,
I rarely quote from anything but the Scriptures, usually a popular well accepted Protestant translation.
I use a Bible concordance of Bible words in addition to the Scriptures, to find verses that pertain to any given subject.
On some occasions I quote from the words of secular sources, Biblical encyclopedias etc, and sometimes the footnotes from various Bible translations.
I never quote from any WT publication, unless someone asks me for a quote from there.
I present the truth as I find it in the Scriptures.
You don't need to quote from the actual WT publication for they are all in your head and in your post and that is your truth...twisted interpretation of scripture with lots of assumptions thrown in all per WTS script as you pick and chose from many bibles what you thing suits the WT teachings. That is exactly how th WT came up with their NWT...pick and chose, add and delete words of many bibles to suit their bias teachings.
What will they do when those teachings are flip flopped again, a new bible addition?

“Close enough”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#1491 Nov 18, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
If the HOLY WORD OF GOD cannot open your eyes, how could I do it?! There is not only one book, or one or two chapters or verse(s) in the Bible who testifies about Jesus being God, Yahweh, Lord and Saviour, but the whole Scriptures are testifying about that.
If you are ignoring the whole Bible whcih is about our Father God, God and Saviour Jesus Christ and God the Holy Spirit, a few verses I can put down on this forum would be to you like a drop of water in a bucket.
In actuality, it is God who opens people's eyes. Jesus was God's only-begotten SON. Even 1 Timothy 3:16 does not say that Jesus is God in the flesh. Here is what it says, and now that you've drawn my attention to it, I am looking at it even closer. King James, your translation evidently of preference, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." It says God was MANIFEST in the flesh. It does not say that Jesus was God in the flesh. A big difference. I'll go on to justified later. Looking at Hebrews 9:2, King James says, "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." God killed himself?
Unknown

Adelaide, Australia

#1492 Nov 18, 2012
Rudi wrote:
<quoted text>
If the HOLY WORD OF GOD cannot open your eyes, how could I do it?! There is not only one book, or one or two chapters or verse(s) in the Bible who testifies about Jesus being God, Yahweh, Lord and Saviour, but the whole Scriptures are testifying about that.
If you are ignoring the whole Bible whcih is about our Father God, God and Saviour Jesus Christ and God the Holy Spirit, a few verses I can put down on this forum would be to you like a drop of water in a bucket.
So instead of having a reasonable discussion about this issue and you presenting evidence for your claims, you decide to make irrational claims about my ability to understand. I can tell discussing truth with you isn't worth it.

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