Paul says Jesus is Jehovah

“Believe & Salvation is yours”

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#4342 Feb 3, 2013
Matt13weedhacker wrote:
<quoted text>
No!
We believe Jehovah is "...( thee ) God..." in John 1:1(B).
Gk.,( HO THEOS )= "...the definitive God..." with the article.
This is the Father.
1st John 1:2, makes that clear.
1st John 1:1-2, interprets who's who in John 1:1.
I am not going to argue with what John 1:1 say. the Inspired writer the Apostle John knows EXACTLY what he was to write and he wrote it.

The subject is the WORD.
WHEN was the WORD? In the Beginning.
WHO was with the WORD? GOD
WHAT was the WORD? GOD

Remember there is ONLY ONE GOD. Who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. Try to research the what that means and research the Jewish meaning of WORD...hint MEMRA. Understanding the WORD will mean your life. Whether you accept HIM or deny HIM.

Can you confirm your credential and what ancient texts you worked on? Until then, please don't try to translate versus and words.

Agape
Hope
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#4343 Feb 3, 2013
Matt13weedhacker wrote:
1st Corinthians 1:30:
New Living Translation (©2007)
"...God has united you with Christ Jesus. For our benefit GOD ---((( MADE )))--- HIM TO BE ((( WISDOM ))) ITSELF ---. Christ made us right with God; he made us pure and holy, and he freed us from sin..."
I don't understand, why did the GB of the WTS need to make their own Bible (the NWT) if you don't use it?

Please could you tell me why do you jump from one translation to another if the NWT is so accurate? Or did the WTS translators missed to change some scriptures, so you need to use other translations in order to support the society's spurious doctrine?

How do you explain that?
Rudi

Falkirk, UK

#4344 Feb 3, 2013
Matt13weedhacker wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe a comparison with this passage of Scripure accurately tells exactly when things occured:
“...THE LORD ( CREATED ) ME ( AS ) THE BEGINNING...”= Proverbs 8:22
“...( IN ) THE BEGINNING...”= Proverbs 8:23
“...( IN ) THE BEGINNING...”= Genesis 1:1
“...( IN ) THE BEGINNING...”= John 1:1
PROVERBS 8:22-31 LXX:
[22.]“...( AS )--- THE BEGINNING ---( OF )...”
[23.]“...( BEFORE ) the present age...”
[23.]“...( IN ) THE BEGINNING...”
[24.]“...( BEFORE ) he made the earth...”
[24.]“...( BEFORE ) he made the depths...”
[25.]“...( BEFORE ) he brought forth the springs of the waters...”
[25.]“...( BEFORE ) the mountains were established...”
[25.]“...( BEFORE ) all the hills...”
[27.]“...( WHEN ) he prepared the sky...”
[27.]“...( WHEN ) he marked out his own throne on the winds...”
[28.]“...( WHEN ) he made strong the clouds above...”
[28.]“...( WHEN ) he made secure the springs beneath the sky...”
[29.]“...( WHEN ) he made strong the foundations of the earth...”
[31.]“...( WHEN ) he rejoiced when he had completed the world...”
-(A New English Translation of the Septuagint 2007.)
It was ( before ) the age,( before ) the earth etc, that Jesus "...the Wisdom from God..." (1st Cor. 1:30) was:
"...((( CREATED )))..." = Prov. 8:22 LXX.
As --- something!
What was he created "...( AS )..." ???
"...( AS )--- THE BEGINNING..."!= Prov. 8:22 LXX.
"...( IN )--- THE BEGINNING..."!= Prov. 8:23 LXX.
Please could you tell me who is 'the Light' according to the Scriptures? It is God [the Father] or Jesus Christ?
Claude Kenneson

Crawfordville, FL

#4345 Feb 3, 2013
Matt13weedhacker wrote:
<quoted text>
Technically at John 1:1 it is:
Gk.,( EN ARCHE ) with no definite article before Gk.,( ARCHE )!
So it is literally:
John 1:1
Emphatic Diaglott Literal Text
"...IN ((( A ))) BEGINNING..."
And in the Septuagint at Genesis 1:1 and Proverbs 8:22 in the Greek it's the same.
"...IN ((( A ))) BEGINNING..."
Just for the record. You need to be aware of that. I'm not sure on the Hebrew, but, I will do some research and come back to you on that one.
Nothing indicates to us that John 1:1 is a different beginning than John 1:2. It's just re-emphasis. Even your NWT doesn't say "In (A) beginning." It says "In (the) beginning" in both instances. Nor is there any indication that Gen. 1:1 means "In (a) beginning" other than during creation of the heavens and the earth.
What translations read "in (a) beginning" to imply that there is more than one or a different one than the creation of the world and all within in?
Claude Kenneson

Crawfordville, FL

#4346 Feb 3, 2013
Matt13weedhacker wrote:
<quoted text>
John 17 is only before:
"...the world..."
Compare Proverbs 8:22-31 LXX:
PROVERBS 8:22-31 LXX:
[22.]“...THE LORD ( CREATED ) ME ( AS ) THE BEGINNING ( OF )...”
[23.]“...( BEFORE ) the present age...”
[23.]“...( IN ) THE BEGINNING...”
[24.]“...( BEFORE ) he made the earth...”
[24.]“...( BEFORE ) he made the depths...”
[25.]“...( BEFORE ) he brought forth the springs of the waters...”
[25.]“...( BEFORE ) the mountains were established...”
[25.]“...( BEFORE ) all the hills...”
[27.]“...( WHEN ) he prepared the sky...”
[27.]“...( WHEN ) he marked out his own throne on the winds...”
[28.]“...( WHEN ) he made strong the clouds above...”
[28.]“...( WHEN ) he made secure the springs beneath the sky...”
[29.]“...( WHEN ) he made strong the foundations of the earth...”
[31.]“...( WHEN ) he rejoiced when ---( HE )--- had completed ---( THE WORLD )...”
-(A New English Translation of the Septuagint 2007.)
So, what is John 17 telling us but that Jesus preceded the creation of the world? "All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be." John 1:2
little lamb

Australia

#4347 Feb 3, 2013
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
Nothing indicates to us that John 1:1 is a different beginning than John 1:2. It's just re-emphasis. Even your NWT doesn't say "In (A) beginning." It says "In (the) beginning" in both instances. Nor is there any indication that Gen. 1:1 means "In (a) beginning" other than during creation of the heavens and the earth.
What translations read "in (a) beginning" to imply that there is more than one or a different one than the creation of the world and all within in?
That is right ' in THE beginning"

Gods word is definite, it wasn't a beginning as one of many, it was definitely the first 'beginning'
Claude Kenneson

Crawfordville, FL

#4348 Feb 3, 2013
Matt13weedhacker wrote:
<quoted text>
Context of Proverbs 8:22 =
PROVERBS 8:21 LXX:
"...If I should report to you the things occuring according to there days, I shall remember --- to recount the things originating from out of an age..."
Huh? Prov. 8:21?

http://www.bibleapps.com/proverbs/8-21.htm

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#4349 Feb 3, 2013
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text> Even your NWT doesn't say "In (A) beginning."
Oh yes it does!

John 1:1 Footnote.

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures With References, Rendered from the Origional Languages by the New World Bible Translation Commitee - A.D. 1950.

"...In at ((( A ))) beginning the Logos was, and the Logos was with the God, and the Logos was a god..." (Emphasis added)

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#4350 Feb 3, 2013
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text> Even your NWT doesn't say "In (A) beginning."
It's in the original multi-volume release, from the 50's. The old green back version.

John 1:1 Footnote.

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures With References, Rendered from the Origional Languages by the New World Bible Translation Commitee - A.D. 1950.

"...In at ((( A ))) beginning the Logos was, and the Logos was with the God, and the Logos was a god..." (Emphasis added)

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#4351 Feb 3, 2013
Claude Kenneson wrote:
<quoted text>
Huh? Prov. 8:21?
http://www.bibleapps.com/proverbs/8-21.htm
Proverbs 8:21 LXX

LXX = the Septuagint.

“Believe & Salvation is yours”

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#4352 Feb 3, 2013
Matt13weedhacker wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh yes it does!
John 1:1 Footnote.
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures With References, Rendered from the Origional Languages by the New World Bible Translation Commitee - A.D. 1950.
"...In at ((( A ))) beginning the Logos was, and the Logos was with the God, and the Logos was a god..." (Emphasis added)
Matt...Can you write the Society and get the names of those scholars that were on the "New World Bible Translation Committee - A.D. 1950?

I believe they had person on that committee, Fred Franz. Who never worked on a manuscript in his life, and didn't have the credentials to work on a manuscript much less THE BIBLE.

“Believe & Salvation is yours”

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#4353 Feb 3, 2013
correction:

I believe they had ONE person on that committee....

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#4354 Feb 3, 2013
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
That is right ' in THE beginning"
Gods word is definite, it wasn't a beginning as one of many, it was definitely the first 'beginning'
The truth of the matter is I don't have a problem with the translation: "...In [the] beginning..." at all.

I was just pointing out a fact.

I was educating my Tri{3}nitarian detractor that ( technically ) the phrase in John 1:1(A):

Gk.,( EN ARCHE ) is not Gk.,( EN [HO] ARCHE )

Gk.,( EN ARCHE )= "...IN ( A ) BEGINNING..."

Gk.,( EN [HO] ARCHE )= "...IN [ THE ] BEGINNING..."

Compare the Emphatic Diaglott's literal text as well. The Diaglott is very wooden in it's literal renderings often.

But anyway.

For proof of my honesty, see the link below to verify for yourself:

http://biblos.com/john/1-1.htm

NOTE: Note that "...[ the ]..." is in brackets in the phrase: "...In [ the ] beginning..."!

I don't have a problem with: "...In the beginning..." wether the "...the..." is in brackets or not.

Since: Nov 11

Edwardsville, IL

#4355 Feb 3, 2013
Boni wrote:
<quoted text>
Now that you are back to square one, let's refresh what we are talking about:
You claim that Jesus must be YHWH because there is no Savior but YHWH and Jesus is the Savior of the world.
Now, you have in the past IGNORED all Biblical evidence that God raised up numerous human Saviors. But I'm going to repeat them again ... just to have you on record. And remember, the Hebrew word used as "Savior" in all the following quotations of Scripture is the exact same word translated as "Savior" at Isaiah 43:11!
Judges 3:9 When the sons of Israel cried to the LORD, the LORD raised up a Savior for the sons of Israel to save them, Othniel the son of Kenaz.
Judges 3:15 But when the sons of Israel cried to the LORD, the LORD raised up a Savior for them, Ehud the son of Gera, the Benjaminite.
2 Kings 13:4-5 Then Jehoahaz besought the Lord, and the Lord hearkened to him; for he saw the oppression of Israel, how the king of Syria oppressed them. Therefore the Lord gave Israel a Savior, so that they escaped from the hand of the Syrians.
Nehemiah 9:27 Therefore You delivered them into the hand of their oppressors who oppressed them, But when they cried to You in the time of their distress, You heard from heaven, and according to Your great compassion You gave them Saviors who saved them from the hand of their oppressors.
Obadiah 1:21 The Saviors will ascend Mount Zion to judge the mountain of Esau, and the kingdom will be the LORD'S.
To claim that Isaiah 43:11 means that there is no other Savior but YHWH acting alone creates a contradictory inconsistency. Your exclusive intepretation would then exclude all these Saviors WHICH YHWH RAISED UP! Therefore, your argument contradicts Scripture. Were they or were they not Saviors?
On the other hand, I have shown that above verses show that IT WAS GOD who raised up these Saviors. In this way, there is no Savior but YHWH. He is the one who raises up these Saviors. God is the one responsible for providing the salvations in view in the above passages. Each of these Saviors are YHWH's Saviors and in this way there is no Savior besides YHWH.
And considering the above Scriptural examples, that brings me up to my next step which you, as in the past, ignored. Namely, Jesus Christ as Savior.
Notice how the Bible speaks of Jesus IN THE VERY SAME WAY we considered above: God raised up a Savior, namely, Jesus.
Acts 5:31 He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 13:23 From the seed of David, according to promise, God has raised up to Israel a Savior, Jesus.
1 John 4:14 The Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
Now, I know you'll dismiss EVEN ALL OF THIS and wiggle elsewhere because your dogma has to be more important than the Scriptures. And I know where you'll go. But first, I want to see you deny all this evidence that debunks your first claim that all the Saviors that YHWH raised in the Bible ARE VOID AND INVALID .. including Jesus! Then I'll rebut that next claim you are fond of going to.
:)
Boni, I have a response to this but have to post it in a separate one... please read the next one in response. My computer is not letting me do things normally on this forum for some reason.

Since: Nov 11

Edwardsville, IL

#4356 Feb 3, 2013
beckyss wrote:
<quoted text>
Boni, I have a response to this but have to post it in a separate one... please read the next one in response. My computer is not letting me do things normally on this forum for some reason.
Hi Boni, I would just like to add that the difference between all the 'saviors' in the OT which God sent to the Israelites, were men who first and foremost did not have the same powers which Jesus did. Christ's powers were unlimited because they were God's actual powers... These men had limited power which was allowed them to 'save' the people from their oppressors. These men were already born... and they were raised to power in order to lead God's chosen people out of their dispairs...
Jesus however, was born specifically for the purpose of being the Savior of all of mankind... John 18:36.."In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth.. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." Jews and Gentiles alike.. He was not born to save men from oppression, but to save them from their sins and bring to eternal life. Were any of the 'saviors' in the OT brought 'up' to power in order to save ALL of mankind and bring them to eternal life or just the Israelites when they were in need?
Jesus had the full power of God where these men had limited power, just enough to deliver the people out of the hands of danger and oppression etc...

You cannot compare Jesus Christ as the Savior of all mankind to bring us Salvation and eternal life and what his purpose as a savior is to the human men who God raised up with in power in order to deliver them out of earthly danger... No comparison in the types of 'saviors' they were compared to Christ.
little lamb

Australia

#4357 Feb 3, 2013
HopeReigns wrote:
<quoted text>
Matt...Can you write the Society and get the names of those scholars that were on the "New World Bible Translation Committee - A.D. 1950?
I believe they had person on that committee, Fred Franz. Who never worked on a manuscript in his life, and didn't have the credentials to work on a manuscript much less THE BIBLE.
Don't you believe 'all scripture is inspired of God...and that God protects his word Psalm 12 [6-7]

No body is going to get away with messing around with translating scriptures...because a Christian has a helper the Holy Spirit

The only people I see who make an issue of scripture translations are those promoting a non scriptural word 'trinity'
little lamb

Australia

#4358 Feb 3, 2013
Matt13weedhacker wrote:
<quoted text>
The truth of the matter is I don't have a problem with the translation: "...In [the] beginning..." at all.
I was just pointing out a fact.
I was educating my Tri{3}nitarian detractor that ( technically ) the phrase in John 1:1(A):
Gk.,( EN ARCHE ) is not Gk.,( EN [HO] ARCHE )
Gk.,( EN ARCHE )= "...IN ( A ) BEGINNING..."
Gk.,( EN [HO] ARCHE )= "...IN [ THE ] BEGINNING..."
Compare the Emphatic Diaglott's literal text as well. The Diaglott is very wooden in it's literal renderings often.
But anyway.
For proof of my honesty, see the link below to verify for yourself:
http://biblos.com/john/1-1.htm
NOTE: Note that "...[ the ]..." is in brackets in the phrase: "...In [ the ] beginning..."!
I don't have a problem with: "...In the beginning..." wether the "...the..." is in brackets or not.
Thank you ..as scripture says in revelation 3 Jesus as the AMEN is the beginning of the creation of God..

scripture always explains scripture

“Believe & Salvation is yours”

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#4359 Feb 3, 2013
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't you believe 'all scripture is inspired of God...and that God protects his word Psalm 12 [6-7]
No body is going to get away with messing around with translating scriptures...because a Christian has a helper the Holy Spirit
The only people I see who make an issue of scripture translations are those promoting a non scriptural word 'trinity'
When the publishing company started to add words, take words out to reflect their doctrine of belief, I belief that is enough of a warming to everyone not to use that bible to preach or teach from.

Agape
Hope

“Believe & Salvation is yours”

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#4360 Feb 3, 2013
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't you believe 'all scripture is inspired of God...and that God protects his word Psalm 12 [6-7]
No body is going to get away with messing around with translating scriptures...because a Christian has a helper the Holy Spirit
The only people I see who make an issue of scripture translations are those promoting a non scriptural word 'trinity'
LL, I believe have answered that many times over and over through out my posts. The answer is YES...with exception to a few bibles I won't touch with a 10 foot pole.
Claude Kenneson

Crawfordville, FL

#4361 Feb 3, 2013
Matt13weedhacker wrote:
<quoted text>
It's in the original multi-volume release, from the 50's. The old green back version.
John 1:1 Footnote.
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures With References, Rendered from the Origional Languages by the New World Bible Translation Commitee - A.D. 1950.
"...In at ((( A ))) beginning the Logos was, and the Logos was with the God, and the Logos was a god..." (Emphasis added)
I only have the 1961 version. It doesn't have footnotes.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Jehovah's Witness Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
YES- People WILL get OUT of HELL! (Nov '15) 8 min Liberated 2,420
Good Afternoon Jehovah 33 min Mikronboy 1
News Anti-Gay Jehovah's Witness Cartoon Tells Kids T... 46 min Brother P 2,140
Tell Me Again Why the Bundys and Patriots Are i... 54 min Lordylordy9111 1
What is the trinity? (Apr '13) 56 min Steve III 23,210
What are the new heavens and the new earth? (Mar '13) 2 hr red blood relative 2,613
Tree of knowledge of good and evil , the origin... 2 hr dreddie 26
More from around the web